Fans, Unite for a cause...a Canadian League

[canadianfoot]

Ok but would the CSA agree let say to run the same kind of system as now with let say 6teams? That's 10 extra games into your schedule before a winner is crowned then you still have the Chamions League...My guess is IF there is ever 6teams that participate the CSA will make 2 groups of 3 & the winner's respective groups go at each other. Ahh who cares about that, that would be a nice problem to have. Right now WE(everyone here & CSA) decide how to get a 4th team........

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

I'd usually agree that all teams need a shot at the Canadian Championship, however, in this case there are minimum standards laid down from CONCACAF so it has to be closed to pro teams only. And I'm OK with that. The USL is an easier league to get into and investors need to see that potential. http://www.uslsoccer.com/aboutusl/franchise/123541.html

The best thing we can do as fans is continue to fill the stadiums. The banner ideas might be good. If you are travelling from another city like Hamilton, hold up a banner saying "Hamilton wants a USL team". Maybe target the potential owners directly. The other event is the Challenge Trophy, 7-12 Oct 2009 in Saskatoon. If Saskatoon thinks they want a USL franchise, then they need to get 5,000 people out to watch these games. 5,000+ people watching amateur games should turn the heads of investors and keep the media involved.

Getting more pro clubs is the only way to get a Canadian League. That will not happen until we fill the USL or MLS. 3 teams in MLS and another 10 in the USL ... it is possible but it will take years.

This is what I'm saying. However, I think 5 USL teams would suffice.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by orletafc

Ok but would the CSA agree let say to run the same kind of system as now with let say 6teams? That's 10 extra games into your schedule before a winner is crowned then you still have the Chamions League...My guess is IF there is ever 6teams that participate the CSA will make 2 groups of 3 & the winner's respective groups go at each other. Ahh who cares about that, that would be a nice problem to have. Right now WE(everyone here & CSA) decide how to get a 4th team........

4'th team eh. For USL, I think Hamilton and Winnipeg would be good places for franchises. For MLS, I would have to imagine Edmonton or Ottawa...other than Montreal ofcourse.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by orletafc

Ok but would the CSA agree let say to run the same kind of system as now with let say 6teams? That's 10 extra games into your schedule before a winner is crowned then you still have the Chamions League...My guess is IF there is ever 6teams that participate the CSA will make 2 groups of 3 & the winner's respective groups go at each other. Ahh who cares about that, that would be a nice problem to have. Right now WE(everyone here & CSA) decide how to get a 4th team........

4'th team eh. For USL, I think Hamilton and Winnipeg would be good places for franchises. For MLS, I would have to imagine Edmonton or Ottawa...other than Montreal ofcourse.

[Obinna]

There were rumors of USL-1 in Hamilton wasn't there? What happened to that?

Winnipeg would be a decent market for USL-1 but I don't think Edmonton in MLS is realistic, Ottawa is a stretch even with the Senetors owner and proximity to Toronto and Montreal(which will be in MLS soon enough), what advantage does Edmonton have? Plus I think it needs Calgary and vice versa. Both would be good for USL-1 if money is there, along with Winnipeg.

Now, if the CSL were to expand Westward, do you guys think USL-1 could co-exist in Winnipeg, Calgary or Edmonton? Would there be enough demand? It seems likely that CSL will be in these cities before USL-1 but I would love to see both, with USL-1 reserve teams playing in a CSL Western Conference, much like TFC Acadamy and Impact reserve play in CSL now.

[ottawaguy2009]

Honestly, soccer/football in North America is alive and thumping. Take a look at the map of teams on uslsoccer.com. Add to that the MLS map of teams and then again the regional leagues like Manitoba Major Soccer League, the Halifax regional league, etc. Sure it's a little disorganized and scattered.

But there is not a single town/city in Canada/USA that does not have a decent soccer team!

Let's take Saskatoon for example. (I used to live there). You have/had recently:

-the Saskatoon Accelerators in the MISL;

-senior men's teams in the city league = very good quality!;

-U of S Huskies (varsity league);

-Saskatchewan Premier League (u-18 travel teams) = academy quality soccer;

Let's take Boise, Idaho (just picked this randomly of the world map in our hallway):

-www.boisesoccer.com/Teams.htm I'll bet some of those teams in the "Premier" section are pretty decent. Try a YouTube search.

-www.collegeofidaho.edu/athlete/menssoccer.asp?ID=athletics (varsity league)

-340 miles to Salt Lake city (for Real Salt Lake games);

-430 miles to Portland (for USL-1/MLS games);

What it boils down to is working with what we've got. Who am I to complain that there is no USL-1, MLS franchise in Ottawa when I haven't even been to a single Fury (PDL) game? For how many other V's is this true? The people who want USL-1 in Hamilton. Do you make a habit of attending senior men's league games on weekends?

Quality, amateur soccer beats anything you can watch on TV. The more we get out there and watch the teams that do play in our towns/cities, and do need our support, the more "professional" soccer will grow in Canada. Until then we need to drop the "purism". The notion that, I'll go to a soccer game in my city when:

-we have a "professional" club;

ya da ya da ya da.

Football is football. Head to a local field on a weeknight this summer and take in a game. Soccer is alive and well in North America.

[ottawaguy2009]

Saskatoon Accelerators vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Us97R17QY&feature=related

not bad if you ask me. notice the abysmal number of fans in the stands. that is why pro soccer does not develop in Canada. what business owner/money lender wants to lend money to a team that gets only a handful of fans out to games? would you lend 10, 20, 100 K to a team with that many fans in the stands? what if that same arena was jam packed with rowdy, racous, banner waving, foot stomping, chanting fans? You might not follow through with an investment but you'd definitely consider it.

[Alex D]

^ I've gotta agree, we have to support what we already have before we can expect more.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by Obinna

There were rumors of USL-1 in Hamilton wasn't there? What happened to that?

Winnipeg would be a decent market for USL-1 but I don't think Edmonton in MLS is realistic, Ottawa is a stretch even with the Senetors owner and proximity to Toronto and Montreal(which will be in MLS soon enough), what advantage does Edmonton have? Plus I think it needs Calgary and vice versa. Both would be good for USL-1 if money is there, along with Winnipeg.

Now, if the CSL were to expand Westward, do you guys think USL-1 could co-exist in Winnipeg, Calgary or Edmonton? Would there be enough demand? It seems likely that CSL will be in these cities before USL-1 but I would love to see both, with USL-1 reserve teams playing in a CSL Western Conference, much like TFC Acadamy and Impact reserve play in CSL now.

I think in order for MLS to get the most out of a Canadian deal, they will need a fourth Canadian team preferably located in the Alberta.

[Portuguese Sensation]

quote:Originally posted by ottawaguy2009

Saskatoon Accelerators vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Us97R17QY&feature=related

not bad if you ask me. notice the abysmal number of fans in the stands. that is why pro soccer does not develop in Canada. what business owner/money lender wants to lend money to a team that gets only a handful of fans out to games? would you lend 10, 20, 100 K to a team with that many fans in the stands? what if that same arena was jam packed with rowdy, racous, banner waving, foot stomping, chanting fans? You might not follow through with an investment but you'd definitely consider it.

Don't blame the fans or lack there of in this situation. How can the fans go to games when they have no idea when the games are and there is little to no promotion or advertising?

[bettermirror]

The championship is an appropriate title. It is the Canadian championship. It is fine the way it is. However, everything can be improved (ie, Man United win 3 straight prem's and potentially two straight UCL...will they stay the same? No way, they will look for more quality). Adding more teams is massive. Regional championships should filter into a 4th V-Cup team for now and eventually 8 etc...

[thedude99]

quote:Originally posted by Portuguese Sensation

Don't blame the fans or lack there of in this situation. How can the fans go to games when they have no idea when the games are and there is little to no promotion or advertising?

I have friends that tried to go to those Accelerators games, and they said they were terrible. I quote directly - "it's not soccer when there is a three point line". Yes, that's correct, if you scored from far enough out - you got three points.

[DarnCherry]

We have no decent soccer stadiums in Canada for prospective new Canadian professional teams to play in. I'm talking about at least 5,000 seaters, and not the decrepit stadiums that try to pass as ones now (such as Swangard).

You have to have somewhere professional to play.

[ottawaguy2009]

quote:Originally posted by thedude99

I have friends that tried to go to those Accelerators games, and they said they were terrible. I quote directly - "it's not soccer when there is a three point line". Yes, that's correct, if you scored from far enough out - you got three points.

I know. The rules are stipulated on the league site. Sure it's a little different. But I've crossed paths with some of the guys who play(ed) on the team and they were good football (official rules) players. This was the best chance offered to them. To get paid and play the game they love. Granted, with a few different rules.

[DarnCherry]

quote:But I've crossed paths with some of the guys who play(ed) on the team and they were good football (official rules) players. This was the best chance offered to them. To get paid and play the game they love. Granted, with a few different rules.

Fine and dandy for them, just don't expect the fans (the people you need for the leagues to survive) to want to flock to games with stupid rules like three point lines.

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

Fine and dandy for them, just don't expect the fans (the people you need for the leagues to survive) to want to flock to games with stupid rules like three point lines.

The 3 point rule was gone this last season. I saw most of the Calgary games (missed the Accelerators games though). It isn't fantastic but it was entertaining especially the Calgary vs Edmonton games. Not for everyone but I find it strangely fascinating to watch.

The outdoor game needs a venue and there are none of note in Calgary (5-6k). If we could get something at the Stampede grounds with its 10k seating and downtown location that might work.

[coppercanuck]

The only way a Canadian League will work is by the fans putting pressure on the CSA, provinces, owners and other power brokers. And by pressure I mean bums in the seats. Why was Toronto FC successful and the Toronto Lynx not? Bums in seats. Plain and simple. If the "fans" that came out to watch Reggina play came regularly, the Lynx could have been successful.

I agree with some of the previous posts, there is good soccer all over this country. If you don't like the 3-point line, don't go; or email the owners and say you can't wait to see the team on a full sized pitch. DO go see any senior amateur team you can find. I've got a feeling that this will be the basis for any Canadian League project. Teams that play down for the Challenge Cup or Connaught Cup, whatever it is called, are very good. At least there might be some effort there. If those teams begin to draw 1,000 per game, heads will turn, especially if the clubs get $2 per ticket.

Stadium issues? Bah!! The stadiums have fallen into disrepair due to under usage. Look at all the Canada Games stadiums around the country. This should be the CSA's main target. Most the CG teams will play in men's senior leagues to get experience, play at the games in a nice stadium and never again at that stadium. The stadium in Saint John should have been a jewel for Soccer NB, now it is just a shadow of what it could be. I'm not sure what the answer is for it, but fill the stadium, regularly and the clubs or city will have to maintain it.

I've always liked the idea of an Open Cup done with a March Madness format, one site host four teams over a weekend. Maybe a long weekend for the longer travel. These CG stadiums could use the action. I'll use the Saint John example again. It's on the UNB-SJ campus, the residences are empty during the summer, cheap place to stay, great field, potential party for the fans. I'm sure there are a pile of other sites with similar setups. London, Kamloops, Brandon, Saskatoon, Regina all come to mind. Add the University teams into the mix. Big marketing potential.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

Why was Toronto FC successful and the Toronto Lynx not? Bums in seats. Plain and simple.

What a ridiculous analysis.

Those "bums" did not magically appear because soccer fans decided to create a successful team. Toronto FC got those bums in the seats by spending millions of dollars to buy a top-level franchise and then spent millions more on building a team and a fan base. They probably spent more on marketing season tickets than the Lynx spent for their whole final season in the USL.

If the Lynx had the kind of money as TFC they could have been successful - well, maybe with different owners and that kind of money.

[coppercanuck]

quote:Originally posted by ted

If the Lynx had the kind of money as TFC they could have been successful - well, maybe with different owners and that kind of money.

So it all comes down to deep pockets? The notion of building a club is ridiculous? I realize that sometimes it takes money to make money but you don't think that the fans can put money into a club and have the club get better? So the reverse should be true, invest the money into a team and hope the fans come (to return the investment) based on marketing and a league that wastes money on things like Beckham.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

So it all comes down to deep pockets? The notion of building a club is ridiculous? I realize that sometimes it takes money to make money but you don't think that the fans can put money into a club and have the club get better? So the reverse should be true, invest the money into a team and hope the fans come (to return the investment) based on marketing and a league that wastes money on things like Beckham.

Uhm, yes. Deep pockets are the only way to build a club in North America. Notice it is not the "community-owned" Vancouver 86ers anymore. It is the rich-guy-owned Whitecaps. If it was not for "the money" stepping in the 86ers would have died rather than surviving to become the Whitecaps we know today.

I am also not sure what you mean about MLS marketing and Beckham. TFC is in MLS and is only successful because they are in MLS. If they had bought a USL place (ie: taken over the Lynx spot) they would NOT currently have sold out crowds @ BMO field.

Soccer fans in Toronto did not swarm Lynx games and demand a bigger stadium. It was not pressure from fans that got MLSE interested. TFC was created and then they attracted fans who have made them very successful.

[Richard]

The Whitecaps have lost money every year that Greg Kerfoot has owned the team. Without a philanthopist like him willing to support the operation financially we would not have professional soccer in Vancouver. That's why an MLS franchise was essential to keep professional soccer going in Vancouver, because Kerfoot and his business partners believe it can be profitable as is Toronto FC (versus the USL-1 Toronto Lynx say).

I doubt very much if a CSL type team in Vancouver could come anywhere near close to sustaining the kind of operation the Whitecaps run or even survive at all in a minimal way without heavy sponsorship to keep it afloat.

[Vic]

So you're saying Vancouver isn't a soccer market and without Kerfoot is nowhere? Harsh!

[Vancouversoccerman]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

So you're saying Vancouver isn't a soccer market and without Kerfoot is nowhere? Harsh!

Versus all those investors falling over themselves to put their money in surefire Canadian soccer ventures everywhere else?

[coppercanuck]

This is a great discussion ... so at this point in history with the MLS in Canada (this was not always a thought of as a possibility as it is a USA league) a Canadian League would be a waste of time. TFC and Whitecaps would never back out of the MLS because it will be viewed as a step down. If a national Canadian League was to target the same cities as the CFL, these franchises would be better served in the MLS, as this is the only place to make money. This is crazy, no? (insert accent of choice). USL-1 is a waste of time too because they all lose money? Recently I heard Duane Rollins make a comment that he would like to see the number of pro teams in Canada double. Assuming he meant 3 more teams, would they all play in the MLS? I can't see it. With Montreal and Ottawa on the horizon for MLS, expansion to get 2 more Canadian teams would mean maybe 4-6 more overall. I can't see the MLS getting that big. The USL-1 might be the only place for these teams.

My flag waving pride might be giving me tunnel vision on this issue. I don't like the fact that we are developing our players on the back of an American system. It will be interesting to see what the 'national league' status from the CSA for the CSL will bring to that league. To contradict myself, I liked the idea of the CSL all jumping to USL-2 and then each club promoting to USL-1 as they got better and more established in that system. The nice part of that is that the teams would all be in the same USL system but that was before the Whitecaps and Impact got a foot in the door. Now, I almost like the reverse and wonder what the CSL-west would look like if the PCSL and PDL squads joined up.

As for the Beckham comment ... I don't want this to sound like all the TFC fans bought season tickets based on Beckham joining the league, but it is interesting that most of the expansion talk was post Beckham.

[Vic]

quote:Originally posted by Vancouversoccerman

Versus all those investors falling over themselves to put their money in surefire Canadian soccer ventures everywhere else?

Whew, thank God. For a second there you weren't better than everyone else.