Fans, Unite for a cause...a Canadian League

[Cyrus]

Do you count the Chicago Canadian Club?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Canadian_Club

Part of the proud history of ethnic based teams in North American soccer.

[kyam]

quote:Originally posted by Trident

Well one, for a team from Victoria or Hamilton to go to the champions league, there needs to be a professional team from there! People use "Big 3" so much to describe us, when it should be the "Only 3".

And 2 LDC spots, through 3 competitions? Ha!

2 from Canada, no less? hahaha.

This is concacaf, we wont get 2 slots in the next 10 years, guarantee.

The best we can hope for is 10.

Again, you've missed the point. Yes we only have three now, but a Canadian League is only possible if we had at least 6-8 teams in the USL-1 or MLS. Theirs no such thing as a legitimate 3 team league.

Hamilton and Victoria has been sited as possible expansion sites for USL-1 , which is why I used those examples...

Either way though, as I said earlier, only 3 cities in Canada can sell 20 000 for soccer, and thats the Big 3... even 3 cities is a big assumption. We don't even know if Vancouver will sell 20 000 seats 3 years after expansion when the honey moon period is over.

And last time I went to a Montreal Impact game, it wasn't even close to a sell out.

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by dsqpr

Mighty oaks from little acorns grow.

We need to start planting some acorns.

They did. It's called the Voyageurs Cup (aka NCC). It is the closest we will get to a league of our own. It also has the distinction of being some of the best soccer played in Canada in a long time.

It will grow but slowly and hopefully it will attract sponsors and serious TV coverage in the years to come.

[Trident]

quote:Originally posted by dsqpr

Yes, I agree that the Voyageurs Cup is an exciting innovation. However, I'd hardly call TFC, Montreal, or Vancouver litte acorns.

There seems to be an overwhelming sentiment here that if you can't put 20,000 bums into the seats then don't even bother. It doesn't even work this way in England. Take a look at AFC Wimbledon, who truly started as a little acorn. They averaged around 4,000 fans per match this season. But they are growing.

What's wrong with England's "League Two", or the Football Conference Premier, where median attendances are well below 10,000 and 5,000 respectively? Smaller teams work over there and could work over here. And could possibly grow into bigger teams. Even Man U. didn't start out playing in front of over 70,000 fans every other week.

I think they are buoyed by merchandise and TV.

[DarnCherry]

quote:Originally posted by Trident

I think they are buoyed by merchandise and TV.

Not to mention they don't have to fly to road games.

[Trident]

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

Not to mention they don't have to fly to road games.

And occasionally they just have to travel across town.

[DarnCherry]

quote:Originally posted by dsqpr

^^^ I'm pretty darned sure there is no big TV contract in place for the Conference South, where AFC Wimbledon played last season! (Or the Conference, or League Two, or League One for that matter, although the Championship just signed a much improved deal that I think is worth about 1 million pounds per club per season). But no TV money for the small clubs that I am talking about.

Merchandising is a level playing field in England and Canada - what you sell depends on the size of your fan base.

The away match travel costs will certainly be higher here. However, the smaller clubs that I am thinking about would definitely need to play in a regional league, which would reduce those costs considerably. But I agree, you might need to say that 2,000 fans per match in England would have to equate to 3,000 fans per match over here to account for the extra travel costs.

You think travel costs here only require an extra 1,000 fans a game? You are dreaming.

[canadianfoot]

Don't forget Europe has sponsors, TV/Radio deals that are multi-year. Even small teams in Division 3 or 4 play in front of crowds of 500-700people. It's just like Hockey in Canada. While what do we have here? In order for a USL1 team to survive you need sponsors that are in for the long run 3-4-5 years. Think about it the Whitecaps have 15home games this season(not counting V-cup or further CCL) if you take an avg price of 24$ per ticket(took the lower end because of seasons pass prices, youth etc.) and by avg crowd of let say 4000x24= 96k X 15games =1,440,000.00$ add to this merchandise, concessions and you are running in at a cool 2-2.2millions per season(haven't included Vcup or CCL games). Now divide that by 23guys, coaching staff, all the doctors & nutritionists and you have what 40people 2.2mil/40ppl that's 55k per year. Now of course there is also rent, travel expenses, etc. So either Kerfoot is bleeding Red or they are making a small maybe under 500k profit per year.(15games with avg 5000 @ 24$ = 1.8mil)/ To be realistic one needs 5000people with a stadium capable to be expanded to 8-9k and you can run a successfull USL1 team. Forget about 20k stadiums people, plain and simple

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

You think travel costs here only require an extra 1,000 fans a game? You are dreaming.

Really a matter of scale. For regional summer leagues in say Southern Ontario/Quebec, or across the Prairies? Priced right I don't see the problem. The CSL model, polished up and expanded a bit as it were.

For a Pacific to Atlantic league. Yikes.

Also keep in mind, when using England as an example, the FA shares organizational resources and provides direct financial subsidies related to the operating costs of all the leagues. Exeter, Gillingham et al have no league expenses. I'm quite sure the same cannot be said of USL or the CSL.

I'd be surprised if MLS collects league operating cost directly from individual franchises, they should have enough sponsorship money to cover league operations I'd think. But, they are set up weird so who knows?

[DarnCherry]

Sorry I'm not even going to get into it. There are far too many costs involved in running a team than the ones you list, perhaps someone else will respond. The Whitecaps for instance don't make money, they average over 5,000 a game and the average ticket price is far more than $15 a ticket.

[DarnCherry]

Don't get me wrong. I'm always creating my own little Canadian leagues (regional and not) on soccer video games, hell, I'm a geek that actually will research stadiums and make little lists. If we are talking of perhaps three seperate regional leagues, that would cut costs down. We'd still need stadiums.

I also agree we need a league of our own. Shame we have no money.

[canadianfoot]

Now realistically I prefer 6 Canadian Teams with 10k stadiums than 3teams @ 20k stadiums. To even start a 6 team league(4round 20games season) we would need something like 60millions to jump start the infrastructure(that is if we get land from City) and another 50millions to run it for 5-6yrs. So unless we get a deal with sportsnet/CBC or other big TV Deal plus league naming rights(league naming right 1mil per yr @ 10% increase per yr for 5yrs) TV Deal could MAX bring in 1-2mil per yr. We are still missing 40millions somewhere that if we get the 60millions to build the stadiums. but then once the 5yrs go by then What?

Krammerhead 3 or 4 separate regional league..yes at the beginning for 5yrs then we might select 6-8teams for the Division 1 play. As for the regions the Atlantic is where travel costs hurt. In order to compensate one might think about shared gate revenue for all teams 85%/15%(home/away) that way all sides would try to generate maximum revenue.

[brettinhalifax]

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

Sorry I'm not even going to get into it. There are far too many costs involved in running a team than the ones you list, perhaps someone else will respond. The Whitecaps for instance don't make money, they average over 5,000 a game and the average ticket price is far more than $15 a ticket.

Krammerhead, you have a lot of posts and I generally think they are good contributions to the discussion, but that's a pretty weak response.

I think orleafc is talking about a PDL-pro (Victoria Highlanders?) or USL2 style league plus airfare. Not a billionaire's gold plated USL1 team with aspirations of moving up to MLS.

The relevant point is: what is the mariginal cost of a PDL/USL2 team playing 3,000 km away vs. playing a team 300 km down the road? You have to pay the coaches, players, office staff, advertising and grounds crew anyway. The only difference between the Victoria Highlanders playing Abbotford and Victoria playing the Ottawa Fury is a plane ride and a couple of extra nights in a hotel.

[Passive Observer]

If Vancouver and Montreal replicate the success of TFC in MLS, I am convinced that clubs will pop-up in other major cities at the USL level. So Basically there would be 3 first division clubs and 3 or 4 second division clubs in the country. I would be satisfied with that. The national championship would probably be two groups of 3, with the group winners advancing to the finals.

[DarnCherry]

quote:Originally posted by brettinhalifax

Krammerhead, you have a lot of posts and I generally think they are good contributions to the discussion, but that's a pretty weak response.

Well I'm sorry if my response wasn't up to the standard you expect from me. But my opinions/responses are free of charge so I'm not obligated to come up with strong ones each time I post. Had you read the posts after the one of mine that you are responding to you would have seen that it was made clear I didn't understand he was talking about smaller regional leagues.

Whitecaps are a gold plated USL team? Somebody had better tell the players.

[brettinhalifax]

Interesting that you cut it off there and didn't respond to the meat of my post.

IMO the Whitecaps are a gold plated USL soccer club. Maybe not by world standards, but they are by North America/Canadian standards. Gold plated has a lot more to do with the willingness of the owner to operate at a loss, training facilities and developmental teams than payroll, although they are undoubtedly one of the highest paid clubs in US1.

[canadianfoot]

quote:Originally posted by dsqpr

^ You are still thinking national while I'm thinking regional. Teams with revenue < 1M. Small stadiums like Swangard or even smaller. Find a nice piece of grass, put fences around it and add in some bleachers. We need to start small and with luck we would grow.

People let's not confuse Players Salary & Operating Budgets twi different things. Under 1mil small like Swanny....OK

Let say you have 18player(not 2full squads)

6x25k=150k

6x30k=180k

6x35k=210k

Head Coach 45k

Assistant Coach 30k

Docs/Masseuse 40k

Office people 3x35k=105k

Already 3/4 of the budget is GONE for Salaries 760k

Now the rest:

Rent

Insurrance(players, building)

Travel Cost

Accomodation

Equipment

and many others I don't even think about right now. So it depends how Regional we want it. I mean your Top players making 35k per year ain't really Top Notch. Of course you can make a good amount with concession, radio, tv but not that much. More realistically you would need a 1.5mil budget. The quote I gave previously was for a USL2 style team.

[DarnCherry]

quote:Originally posted by brettinhalifax

Interesting that you cut it off there and didn't respond to the meat of my post.

I lost interest. Life is short.

[canadianfoot]

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

I lost interest. Life is short.

LOL since having my twins 1year ago it seems life is in lightyears for me.

[loben]

Hi All

My 2cents on this CSL, I think This CSl should be modeled after the CHL hockey league. We will slice up the country into three regions and have teams play for the regional titles, then have a mini tourney ala "Memorial Cup" and determine a slots in the Nutrilite Canadian Champions.

The teams in this league can be either feeders into USL or MLS systems or stand along professional leagues.

Any thoughts?

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by loben

Hi All

My 2cents on this CSL, I think This CSl should be modeled after the CHL hockey league. We will slice up the country into three regions and have teams play for the regional titles, then have a mini tourney ala "Memorial Cup" and determine a slots in the Nutrilite Canadian Champions.

The teams in this league can be either feeders into USL or MLS systems or stand along professional leagues.

Any thoughts?

Just adopt the Brasilian system, you play in a state league, then a winner emerges to play next year in the Copa do Brasil at the A, B, C, or now D level .. you would only need the A, and B level in Canada.

Teams would have to be non-amateur to go in the Cup League.

You can rank how many get in from a province based on initial seeding, then on past performance.. so for example Ontario might have four times as many teams as Nova Scotia would have moving on after the provincial league.

[kyam]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Just adopt the Brasilian system, you play in a state league, then a winner emerges to play next year in the Copa do Brasil at the A, B, C, or now D level .. you would only need the A, and B level in Canada.

Teams would have to be non-amateur to go in the Cup League.

You can rank how many get in from a province based on initial seeding, then on past performance.. so for example Ontario might have four times as many teams as Nova Scotia would have moving on after the provincial league.

If Canada adopts the Brasil system, I envision the same problem that happens in Brasil, will happen in Canada. In Brasil, the best teams in the league are from the State of Sao Paulo. Santos, Sao Paulo, Corinthians and Palmeiras among others.

The problem with this system, is that the State Championship match from Sao Paulo is the virtual national championship game because the team from Sao Paolo will always wins the Serie A title.

Another problem is that the Serie A Championship final does not reflect the best teams in the country. While the top teams maybe Palmeiras and Corinthians, these two teams will never play each other in a Final.

In Canada, its no secret that the majority of Canadians live in Ontario or Quebec. The market is ripe for several expansions of USL-1 or USL-2 franchises.

With TFC, the Impact, and the possible expansion of Hamilton, Ottawa and Quebec City, we have five possible clubs in this region alone.

In the West, the Whitecaps as well as the rumoured Victoria expansion appears to be the only clubs outside Central Canada (some really unlikely rumours that Edmonton wants a team).

So even if we regionalize the NCC, the Western Division will have 2 possible clubs, while the Central Canada division would have 5 clubs that can support a team.

If the Caps and Victoria have a bad season, at least 1 will end up in a Championship, while a strong team from Quebec won't make it, because they weren't the best.

[michaeltfc91]

It is 100% possible to have a professional league in Canada as a bus league

West: Vancouver Victoria Calgary Edmonton

East: Toronto Montreal Hamilton Ottawa

Toronto, Montreal & Vancouver are already perfect

Victoria Highlanders are doing well and can get more attendance at Royal Athletic Park

Hamilton has a great shot at getting a club

Edmonton have been rumored into MLS, Ottawa almost already got in

And lastly Calgary should be fine, they're a huge city

[Trident]

Bus from Van to Calgary and Edmonton?

Those will be a rough what... 8 trips?

[Richard]

Yeah, and minimum 12 hours on the bus each way. Dream on.