Johnnyranger Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 I'm sure there have been some sent (From Piltdownman, masster, and others) but I have yet to see any published. We had Jim Mullin from CKNW on the SS'ers board asking for suggestions on how they'd better cover the Caps during their late afternoon sports news, and Johnnie Monster and a few others directed him to look at this issue as one to potentially highlight.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnyranger Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 spiral, you have to stop the spamming of the same message.. we get it, you are concerned... thanks for that. We will find out who is/isn't suing who when the NDP release their platform. until then stop sending mis-information and lighting panic bonfires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 If the Queen sells off half of BC to the Americans for a roof over Ireland, is it ok if it "generates income"? Selling land and generating income are two very different things. One is a capital asset disposition and the other is a P&L line item who's funds are generated through day-to-day operating business. A key difference when discussing financial models, such as in this case where it involves disposing of assets who's value was never generated. Throw out the legal entities and organizational frameworks and I fail to see the problem with taxpayers questioning where the proceeds of selling off (their) provincial land goes. I think that's just responsible citizenry. And 20,000 hardcore soccer supporters may sound like a lot, but it's really infintisimal by comparison. Visually it looks like this: Soccer supporters: X Non-soccer supporters with relatives needing healthcare, out-of-work family members, businesses choking on tax payments, etc: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX I sure as Hell haven't seen any of these contracts or documents but if I had to guess I would bet it's all moot anyway. The Caps will play in BC Place with a golden roof, a teflon roof, a cardboard roof or even without a roof. And to me that's all that matters. The rest is a much bigger issue than soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Johnnyranger Sure Richard, I would have preferred to see them bulldoze the entire thing and build a semi enclosde horseshoe style stadium with Natural Grass etc...but then it wouldn't be a viable venue for Tradeshows, Home Shows etc They could also have let it stand pat and continue thowing good money after bad at the energy bills They could also go about retrofitting it on moneys they will generate by selling off lands surrounding BC Place, which will drastically increase in value once BC Place is freshened up. Understand that the whole notion of it is taxpayer moneys doing this is a red herring. BCPavCo generates this income and has to spend it inside itself, that is the basis for the companies existence. How does any of this diatribe of yours add anything to or even counter what I posted? You've just ranted off on a 'right leaning' tangent because I didn't come out and slam the NDP. I understand perfectly well where the bulk of the funding is coming from, that there is more to BC Place than the Lions and the Whitecaps and that there may well be legal obligations but most commercial contract terms are negotiable right up until they are fulfilled. Do you not accept that there may well be perfectly good alternative and cheaper roof schemes for BC Place or are you such a rabid Campbell supporter that nothing else will do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 ^ Vic, I don't often agree with you but I do this time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piltdownman Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 I can't even get the NDP to reply to me about the roof. I don't even think they know what they would do. Its just something that the Liberals are spending money on, so they can attack it. I'm very disappointed that I haven't even received a form email back from either of the two emails I sent them. In both one email I even used language to make it seem like I was against the stadium. I live two blocks from Carole James' campaign office, so I think I'll head over and try to get some kind of answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnyranger Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 I never said nothing else will do, I have said I am in support of what he is doing, and has DONE, and that is the valid point here, and what has become a point of controversy. My Politics aside (And everyone is aware, from reading my posts that I am for working govt regardless of who gets elected) I am not a "whatever gordo says, goes" guy. I am right leaning yes, but that doesn't make me ignorant by any stretch. What is done is done. From what I have gathered the project has gone ahead. My Company that I work for is interested and will be bidding work involved. I am pretty aware of the situation. I have both won and lost work in my professional sales career with BC Pav Co. I am not hammering the NDP for the sake of hammering the NDP because it is a pleasure of mine. I am hammering them for deciding to make this a campaign and election issue. It is a dangerous game that nobody should be playing. Politics aside, what is giving a stay of execution to the BC Place Reno's and redirecting that cash to general coffers going to do for BC? -PatchUp a dead sector in Forestry? No. That is a vicious cycle problem even the world's most advanced economists can't figure out. But giving unending EI to these out of work folks is not the answer. -Sending the money to Healthcare? Again, see above -Sending the money to install more security cameras at the Bacon Brothers Houses? Nope. -Hiring more Cops?...nope. BC Place needs this, and to use it as a bargaining chip to earn votes is garbage, and that doesn't come from a Soccer Supporters viewpoint, it comes from a citizen that cares for all needs' viewpoint, one that I am entitled to, whether you disagree or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 BCPavCo is a crown corporation is it not? If it is, whatever laws that govern it can be changed by the provincial government so the argue about what BCPavCo can and can't do is likely irrelevant. As for 20,000 hardcore soccer fans, I doubt the retractable roof is a deal breaking voting consideration for many. Who knows, there may be a few Single Issue voters in the group, but I doubt its many. Especially if the roof issue revolves around retractable versus cheaper option. I just hope that partisan politics might doesn't drive a wedge in the organization of the BC soccer community (such as it is) and splinter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnyranger Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 That is just it Gordon. As far as the public has been made aware (by both parties and other folks in and via the media) it is go with a retractable roof with a new system or replace the current roof with the same or a similar system. A retractable rook will cost a lot up front in comparison to the aforementioned replacement, but the operating costs see it out to be a more sustainable and cost effective system going forward. (energy costs etc) The soccer Community has a lot more in common through the love of the game vs politics etc. The soccer community won't be adversely affected in it's harmony imho... The Political Landscape of BC is as volatile as ever though, and will continue to be such as long as BC is still as wonderful a place to live and work and raise a family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 One key point is that if you look at the overall budget of a provincial goverment the cost of the roof at BC Place is a drop in the bucket, it is negligible. I agree it sounds like a lot of money, but only if you don't have a clue about the overall numbers. The other point for me is that no one has ever dealt properly and intelligently with social problems in the Downtown Eastside, or with Vancouver drug problems which have been important since the early 70s (with related crime, including gang murders), and the NDP cannot claim success either, despite having MLAs and MPs permanently representing the area, I suppose since the 60s. They have all used demogogic discourses, discarded perfectly reasonable solutions, and helped perpetuate the conditions they supposedly abhore. Only now they are pretending that sport is the enemy. As I posted before, the real problem with the NDP is that they are totally uninterested in representing policies a lot of Canadians believe in, and act like a special interests lobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 quote:Originally posted by piltdownman I can't even get the NDP to reply to me about the roof. I don't even think they know what they would do. Its just something that the Liberals are spending money on, so they can attack it. I'm very disappointed that I haven't even received a form email back from either of the two emails I sent them. In both one email I even used language to make it seem like I was against the stadium. I live two blocks from Carole James' campaign office, so I think I'll head over and try to get some kind of answer. Don't let it bother you. I have tried emailing the Liberal office in my riding several times and never had any kind of response whatsoever. This is not unique to the provincial NDP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiral Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 Just so you all know, I was at the Car Show yesterday and spoke with some people and the whole Upper Ring of BC Place is draped in plastic with ventilation tubes attached to the roof's inner lining. That's for ventilation. They're dismantling all the fans downstairs and the fan rooms upstairs of which there's 8 fan rooms and 16 jet engine fans to blow in air to keep the roof aloft. They're also reinforcing the Ring beam to get it structurally strong enough to support the towers to hold up a retractable Roof. If Carole James decides on another Inflatable, back go the fans and they'll dismantle all the reinforcement. How stupid. Fircst take out the fans, then reinstall them to keep the NDP happy. Is James planning a statement Thursday? U2 tickets are practically sold out. It's a Circle In The Round stage so they may get 70,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Johnnyranger I never said nothing else will do, I have said I am in support of what he is doing, and has DONE, and that is the valid point here, and what has become a point of controversy. My Politics aside (And everyone is aware, from reading my posts that I am for working govt regardless of who gets elected) I am not a "whatever gordo says, goes" guy. I am right leaning yes, but that doesn't make me ignorant by any stretch. What is done is done. From what I have gathered the project has gone ahead. My Company that I work for is interested and will be bidding work involved. I am pretty aware of the situation. I have both won and lost work in my professional sales career with BC Pav Co. I am not hammering the NDP for the sake of hammering the NDP because it is a pleasure of mine. I am hammering them for deciding to make this a campaign and election issue. It is a dangerous game that nobody should be playing. Politics aside, what is giving a stay of execution to the BC Place Reno's and redirecting that cash to general coffers going to do for BC? -PatchUp a dead sector in Forestry? No. That is a vicious cycle problem even the world's most advanced economists can't figure out. But giving unending EI to these out of work folks is not the answer. -Sending the money to Healthcare? Again, see above -Sending the money to install more security cameras at the Bacon Brothers Houses? Nope. -Hiring more Cops?...nope. BC Place needs this, and to use it as a bargaining chip to earn votes is garbage, and that doesn't come from a Soccer Supporters viewpoint, it comes from a citizen that cares for all needs' viewpoint, one that I am entitled to, whether you disagree or not. I have not said I agree with the NDP, I am just taking issue with your earlier implication that it must be the Gordon Campbell/PavCo roof choice or nothing - source of funding aside. It does not need to be in any whay, shape or form. Any number of alternatives would suffice so in that one, narrow case the NDP have a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiral Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Early in the process, Pavco officials toured various stadiums around the world to get ideas on how to implement a Roof structure on an existing stadium. They looked at the Georgia Dome in Atlanta as a Permanent roof model. Also considered was a Steel Retractable roof apparatus on University of Phoenix stadium in Glendale, Arizona. So what do you propose the NDP should propose? I'd say the options are limited. It's much harder to fit a roof over an existing structure, as opposed to designing a stadium from scratch with a particular roof design in mind (example Safeco Field or the Skydome. I'm listening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Vancouversoccerman Glen Clark? No doubt...he had to go. The fudget budget should have been enough. Fast ferries were the worst financial disaster this province has ever faced. The patio scandal would have forced most politicians into jail. Except he was acquitted on all charges, completely cleared. With regard to Fast ferries, yeah that was bad - cost an exta $300 Million. So, I agree terrible. Tell me this though - do you remember Gordon Campbell breaking ground on the COnvention Centre, guaranteeing that the cost would be $400 Million, and there was absolutely no way the Province would pay a cent more. Funny that the final bill came to $1 Billion. And why are the Liberals paying $100 million to buy those houses in Tsawassen? Is it because the power lines are unsafe? Must not be, because they are reselling them. So there must be a reason beyond buying votes. I don't understand. Bottom line? Anyone who thinks the Liberals are good managers of finances and not just political hacks is delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary Boomer Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 quote:Originally posted by spiral Early in the process, Pavco officials toured various stadiums around the world to get ideas on how to implement a Roof structure on an existing stadium. They looked at the Georgia Dome in Atlanta as a Permanent roof model. Also considered was a Steel Retractable roof apparatus on University of Phoenix stadium in Glendale, Arizona. So what do you propose the NDP should propose? I'd say the options are limited. It's much harder to fit a roof over an existing structure, as opposed to designing a stadium from scratch with a particular roof design in mind (example Safeco Field or the Skydome. I'm listening Good god. That's the most intelligent post you've ever made...and I actually have to agree with you. BC Place under the new plans will go ahead, and they are the best plans for the stadium and the city. The Frankfurt Stadium the design was borrowed from, is truly spectacular. BTW, a certain owner of a certain soccer team contributes campaign funds to a certain party. Guess which one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriendsOfSoccer Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 This afternoon, Jim Mullin of CKNW weighed in with some insightful commentary. In this editorial, he places a fair amount of blame on the Liberals for dithering on the roof, and a fair amount on the NDP for being misleading and divisive on this issue: http://friendsofsoccer.blogspot.com/2009/04/cknw-editorial-slams-both-libs-ndp-on.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SthMelbRed Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer BTW, a certain owner of a certain soccer team contributes campaign funds to a certain party. Guess which one. I would be shocked if somebody as rich and with varying business interests like Mr Kerfoot didn't contribute a substantial sum to both major parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachRich Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 quote:Originally posted by SthMelbRed I would be shocked if somebody as rich and with varying business interests like Mr Kerfoot didn't contribute a substantial sum to both major parties. & that helps us how w/ BC Place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiral Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 The voters have the final say. Who gives a rat's ass what Kerfoot's political inclinations are. He never makes any public appearances. He never gives interviews to media. The BC Rail scandal has only just started. I anticipate a bombshell revelation in the coming days that will propel the NDP ahead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie Monster Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 quote:Originally posted by ChrisB Except he was acquitted on all charges, completely cleared. With regard to Fast ferries, yeah that was bad - cost an exta $300 Million. So, I agree terrible. Tell me this though - do you remember Gordon Campbell breaking ground on the COnvention Centre, guaranteeing that the cost would be $400 Million, and there was absolutely no way the Province would pay a cent more. Funny that the final bill came to $1 Billion. Off topic, but I'll weigh in. HUGE difference between the ferries and the convention centre. The NDP mismanaged the ferries project and bled millions on repairs and redesigns on a technology that ultimately didn't work. The engines were sucking in logs and were vulnerable to infestations of clams and other marine life. End result? Ferries that were no quicker than their bulky counterparts, carried less passengers and vehicles, and were deemed better suited for scrap metal than as sea vessels. As for the convention centre, two things occurred that were completely beyond the control of the BC Liberals - #1 the cost of US steel went through the stratosphere without warning... and other building materials soon followed suit. #2 The unprecedented pre-Olympic housing boom tied up every contracting company within striking distance of BC. This demand for workers forced labour rates higher and higher. The labour shortage was further exacerbated by the fact that a huge chunk of BC's young skilled labourers packed their bags for Alberta years earlier after the previous NDP regime ran the economy into the crapper. How appropriate that Glen Clark said he had his fast ferries costed "right down to the toilet paper on board." [xx(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiral Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Ever heard of Fixed Price versus Cost Plus? BC Place's project is a Fixed Price contract. Stan Hagen insisted on that. The new Convention Center must have been a Cost Plus project as the price kept escalating out of control. If they had've made the Convention Center a Fixed Price project, which clearly and stupidly they didn't, the costs wouldn't have spiraled out of control. Mind you, the end result is stunning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiral Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 I encourage all of you to phone your MLA RIGHT NOW TODAY and put the pressure on to get answers and get the Retractable roof approved and done. Phone your MLA. Don't just email, though you can do that too. The best thing to do is write letters and send faxes. Send lots. I'm trying to put together a contact list of MLAs so we can all have an impact. We need all of you to help out here. Pester the NDP and tell them we're not interested in their stupid views. Your MLA should be listed in your Blue pages. Let's put the pressure on. Letters and faxes have more impact than emails, and phone calls are important right now too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiral Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 We all can start by contacting Spencer Herbert NDP MLA for Vancouver-Burrard and asking policy questions and putting the pressure on. Find out what the official party view on the Retractable Roof is. What side of the fence the party is sitting on. It's about time they make their views fully known: http://spencerherbert.bcndp.ca/contact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancouversoccerman Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Personally, I don't think we need to do anything until we know for certain what the NDP's plans are. We'll likely find out this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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