Hargraeves, Fernandes, JDG2 - A difference or . ?

[Ian Kennett]

Would Canada be still in the hunt or comfortably through to the Hex if these three players had suited up for the current WCQ? How about Nsaliwa added to the mix? What would our starting lineup have looked like?

If you think that we would be coasting, comparatively speaking, then the CSA must immediately begin aggressively asking FIFA to changes its rules about citizens of one country playing for another based upon the nationality of their mother or father as was the case with Hargraeves and Fernandes. The CSA must demand that only players who are born in a country, or have legally and legitimately acquired citizenship in another country completely independently of their ancestry, may play for a national team. In addition, we obviously need to do much, much more (and there have been all kinds of suggestions posted on this board) to provide players such as JDG2 a reason to play for Canada as their first choice. It is an expensive thing in terms of lost talent for lesser soccer nations. Even the USA is losing very good players as can be seen with Rossi and, very likely, Subotic.

If you feel that the inclusion of these players would make little difference to our present WCQ chances, then clearly, Canada is NOT producing players who ever possess truly World class talent, with a rare few exceptions over a long period of time. In this case, we are really and truly lost until such time as the provinces act in the interests of indiviual players, provide for improved and mandatory coaching certification, and make it as part of every provincial vision that getting to the World Cup is THE number one national priority for soccer in this country. Until such time, ???

Like most, if not all of you, I am gutted by the poor showing, again, of the MNT during WCQ. In fact, if any tangible, legislated, positive changes do not happen immediately to improve the situation, my 23 years of being a Canada supporter will soon end - it is literally too stressful to hope and dream for a losing program (my sincere apologies to the players who give it their all time and again!).

So, my question to you, aside from those posed above, is this. What MUST the CSA do to finally make things better, and how does a guy like me become involved in the process? After all, it is one thing for me to chirp, but quite another to actually DO something since the arrogant, ignorant, foolish, and weak CSA directors do not listen to mere words or common sense.

Cheers!

[Joe MacCarthy]

It's not just up to the CSA. All of the "poachee" countries should be putting up a united front against FIFA.

Something else, there seems to be no shame in any of this. Why does FIFA condone such unsportsmanlike behaviour, diving, cheating, violence, poaching.

There seems to be no embarrassment at all.

If the Canadian hockey team poached a player from Korea who wasn't a citizen (but whose grandparent was born here) I would be ashamed. Wouldn't that be an indictment of the Canadian hockey program that it couldn't produce quality players?

Look at England, foreign coach, "foreign" player(s) what's the point of international competition if you can "buy" a team. Aren't they embarrassed that they have to poach players, and from a minnow such as Canada to boot.

I recall the Canadian hockey team picking up Peter Stastny and Petr Nedved but both had defected and had to become citizens to be eligible. I see no issue with this (aside from the issue of lack of talent development), or in the case of Whore II because he had most of his development in Holland and he became a citizen. I just didn't like his stringing us along.

[theaub]

So you're saying that if Wayne Gretzky had a Canadian grandparent and was completely US otherwise, and he said he wanted to play for Canada you would've said no? Seriously?

[Joe MacCarthy]

quote:Originally posted by theaub

So you're saying that if Wayne Gretzky had a Canadian grandparent and was completely US otherwise, and he said he wanted to play for Canada you would've said no? Seriously?

Seriously. Why can't you understand that.

Has Canada become such a stand-for-nothing, citizenship by convenience, worthless piece of PC goo, that this country means nothing to some of you out there.

There are some here who are so selfish and cynical against their home I wonder why they are here (this site).

I honestly don't understand a few of you guys. This whole discussion is the raison d'etre of why the Voyageurs were started...to support Canada. If you want to support your heritage country more than Canada why are you at this site? Makes no sense.

Have you any patriotism at all? Why have international sporting events at all then?

[finchster]

quote:Originally posted by theaub

So you're saying that if Wayne Gretzky had a Canadian grandparent and was completely US otherwise, and he said he wanted to play for Canada you would've said no? Seriously?

If I remember correctly Gretzky has Belarusian grandparents. He could have played for the CCCP . Anyway Hockey has better international eligibility rules. I am pretty sure the IIHF states you have to have citizenship of the country you wish to represent. So Grandchildren or children of immigrants can't represent their parents nations.

Thomas Vanek of the Buffalo Sabers, his dad was a Czech hockey player who moved to Austria and Thomas was born there. He moved to the USA at 16 to improve as a hockey player and I am sure he has American Citizenship now. So under Fifa rules, he could have played for Czech Republic, Austria, and USA but at the time of his decision in hockey he only had one choice Austria. Because of this Austria has a hockey star to build the sport around, something Canada lacks in soccer.

Fifa should adopt more strict rules like in hockey. There will always be opportunistic people like anywhere, but I believe with more strict rules we would see less of this. Its really embarrassing to see many international sides stealing players or fast tracking 15-20 Brazilians for citizenship to play for their team.

[RJB]

Hockey rules aren't the tightest actually. Brian Trottier played for Canada and the US in consecutive Canada Cups. Also, I believe that Evgeni Nabokov has represented Kazhakstan and Russia at the World Championship level.

Also, Tam Nsaliwa seems to have taken on a mythical ability amongst some V's. Having not seen much of him, is he really that incredible?

[finchster]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

Hockey rules aren't the tightest actually. Brian Trottier played for Canada and the US in consecutive Canada Cups. Also, I believe that Evgeni Nabokov has represented Kazhakstan and Russia at the World Championship level.

Also, Tam Nsaliwa seems to have taken on a mythical ability amongst some V's. Having not seen much of him, is he really that incredible?

Well about Brian Trottier, he had gained US citizenship through his wife. Furthermore the Canada cup was an NHL event with really no rules besides citizenship. I am sure the IIHF would not allow it.

Evgeni Nabokov was an interesting case, he had played for Kazhakstan however at a time when he had no choice but to do so. I am not sure about the sports situation of hockey in former soviet republics but I know he was forced to play for them. He spent 4-5 years trying to get the IIHF to change his eligibility

Anyway Tam Nsaliwa would just be a good backup or somoene who could start, hes good but not great depth purposes.

[snake]

actually brian trottier is native ,his status card was all he needed to switch sides.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Ian Kennett

Would Canada be still in the hunt or comfortably through to the Hex if these three players had suited up for the current WCQ? How about Nsaliwa added to the mix? What would our starting lineup have looked like?

If you think that we would be coasting, comparatively speaking, then the CSA must immediately begin aggressively asking FIFA to changes its rules about citizens of one country playing for another based upon the nationality of their mother or father as was the case with Hargraeves and Fernandes. The CSA must demand that only players who are born in a country, or have legally and legitimately acquired citizenship in another country completely independently of their ancestry, may play for a national team. In addition, we obviously need to do much, much more (and there have been all kinds of suggestions posted on this board) to provide players such as JDG2 a reason to play for Canada as their first choice. It is an expensive thing in terms of lost talent for lesser soccer nations. Even the USA is losing very good players as can be seen with Rossi and, very likely, Subotic.

If you feel that the inclusion of these players would make little difference to our present WCQ chances, then clearly, Canada is NOT producing players who ever possess truly World class talent, with a rare few exceptions over a long period of time. In this case, we are really and truly lost until such time as the provinces act in the interests of indiviual players, provide for improved and mandatory coaching certification, and make it as part of every provincial vision that getting to the World Cup is THE number one national priority for soccer in this country. Until such time, ???

Like most, if not all of you, I am gutted by the poor showing, again, of the MNT during WCQ. In fact, if any tangible, legislated, positive changes do not happen immediately to improve the situation, my 23 years of being a Canada supporter will soon end - it is literally too stressful to hope and dream for a losing program (my sincere apologies to the players who give it their all time and again!).

So, my question to you, aside from those posed above, is this. What MUST the CSA do to finally make things better, and how does a guy like me become involved in the process? After all, it is one thing for me to chirp, but quite another to actually DO something since the arrogant, ignorant, foolish, and weak CSA directors do not listen to mere words or common sense.

Cheers!

In order of importance. My Opinion on the three players who chose not represnt Canada that you mentioned:

1) Hargreaves. YES he would have helped a great deal. Has lived up to Voyageur hype and exceeded it. He has big game experience. Was arguably ( along with Beckham) England's best player at the last WC. A regular starter on two of the biggest clubs in the world and has won two CL titles. Has loads champions league experience and is in his prime. And is still has a few years to go before he is past his prime. There is evidence of his quality: from unbiased third party sources, his pro career progression and his transfers market value. You don't need to ask if he is any good.

2) Jon Deguzman. Maybe, Maybe not. As it stands, based on where is playing, he would have been in the starting 11 for DM. But its still unknown whether he will live up to the Voyageur hype and, if the quality he brings would have made a huge difference. Given his age and experience its unknown if he would have even made a difference. There is some evidence from media and unbiased third party sources of potential and of interest from really big clubs from a few snippets that get seen here. But in the bigger picture he is not as well known of a commodity and I can think of many detailed reports ( through searches for the better youths players at the world level ) that I have looked at who don't even mention his name or barely mention his name. There might even be other concacaf players of his age that have made more headlines in Europe such as Gio Dos Santos, J Altidore and Micheal Bradley. Jono was on the Dutch Olympic team, an impressive achievement, but if he was the kind of talent some have made him out to be, you would think that he would have, at least, garnered a spot on the bench, for the team that went to the Euros or even the recent Dutch WCQ squad. I think that if he turns out to be as good as his bro, it would still be an impressive achievement.

3) Fernandes. NO evidence that he would have helped. A perfect example of making a mountain out of a molehill and of " oooo'ing ahh'ing" over the collectors card profile but not ever asking the most important question: IS HE ANY GOOD?. There is no evidence from what is known about his career so far that he is any better than what we have. He is known in system by the coaches and he was assessed by the coaches. Cant say he wasn't given a chance. What coach doesn't want good players on his team?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

In order of importance. The three players who chose not represnt Canada that you mentioned:

1) Hargreave. YES he would have helped a great deal. Has lived up to Voyageur hype and exceeded it. He has big game experience. Was arguably ( along with Beckham) England's best player at the last WC. A regaulr starter on two of the biggest clubs in the world. Has loads champions league experience and is in his prime. And is still has a few years to go before he is past his prime. There is evidence of his quality: from third party sources and career progression and transfers market. You dont need to ask if he is any good.

2) Deguzman. Maybe, Maybe not. As it stands, based on where is palying, he would have been in the starting 11 for DM. But its still unknown whether he will live up to the Voyageur hype and, if the quality he brings would have made a huge difference. Given his age and expereince its unknown if he would have even made a difference. There is some evidence from media and unbiased third party sources of potential and of interest from really big clubs from a few snippets that get seen here. But in the biggers picture he is not as well known of a commodity and I can think of many detailed reports ( through searches for the better youths players at the world level ) that I have looked at who dont even mention his name or barely mention his name. He was on the dutch olympic team and that impressive as an achievement but if he was the kind of talent some have made it out to be, you would think taht he would have, at least, garnered a spot on the bench, for the team that went to the Euros. I think that if he turns out to be as good as his bro, it would still be an impressive achievement.

3) Fernandes. NO evidence that he would have helped. A perfect example of making a mountain out of a molehill and of " oohing ahhing" over the playing card profile but not ever asking the most important question: IS HE ANY GOOD?. There is no evidence from what is known about his career so far that he is any better than what we have. He is known in system by the coaches and he was assessed by the coaches. cant say he wasn't given a chance. What coach doesn't want good players on his team?

I can't agree with your analysis.

Every single one of them would have helped, and would be helping right now. Their role would not be definitive, because a definitive role would be a killer striker, an experienced creative mid and a strong fast and experienced central defender. These are our defects. As is we would have gotten: a similar player to Julian de G in Hargreaves, a workhorse with passing quality but no goal scorer and only an average passer: an inexperienced creative mid who may still be too young to make an impact, but could have given us a bit of bite and flash from the middle; and a more reliable keeper, Bundesliga quality, physically stronger than what we have and perhaps more of a leader on the field (two average MLS keepers, one getting on in years, and a Champions League quality keeper who has not played more than a year straight as a starter in the last 5.)

So the difference with these three would have been slight, probably not enough to beat Mexico there but maybe enough to have held on vs. Honduras or saved that stinker Jamaica scored on us. But there is no way of knowing all this, maybe Dale would have screwed up their talents as well and they would have looked way worse than they do in their respective clubs. If you don't play the talent right, if you don't even know how to get the most of what you have (has Dale even watched any of our European players live? All he'd need is a 10 day to 2 week trip to the Isles, Germany, Denmark and Spain to get an idea).

[An Observer]

In my opinion, all 3 would have made a tremendous difference. Especially Hargreaves as he would have realised DeGuzman to play more forward and been a rock playing in front of the defense. He also can distribute the ball. DeGuzman II would have added an important offensive threat from the midfield that would have allowed De Rosario to move outside to benefit from more space. Hutchinson could have then slotted into central defense beside Serioux or McKenna. Not his best position but a serious upgrade from Hastings.

As for Fernandes, he would have likely been our starting keeper. Not as good an upgrade as Hargreaves or DeGuzman II but definitely an improvement in a position where we are not up to scratch.

[theaub]

quote:Originally posted by Joe MacCarthy

Seriously. Why can't you understand that.

Has Canada become such a stand-for-nothing, citizenship by convenience, worthless piece of PC goo, that this country means nothing to some of you out there.

There are some here who are so selfish and cynical against their home I wonder why they are here (this site).

I honestly don't understand a few of you guys. This whole discussion is the raison d'etre of why the Voyageurs were started...to support Canada. If you want to support your heritage country more than Canada why are you at this site? Makes no sense.

Have you any patriotism at all? Why have international sporting events at all then?

You can take your team of "true" (whatever the hell that means) Canadians, I'll take my team of guys who are mostly all Canadian with a few guys not from Canada but who are eligible and are good, and I'll cheer when the Canadian flag is raised to the rafters while you can go cry in the corner because Johnny from Newfoundland got left out for the far superior guy from the US/Russia/Mars who has some tie to Canada and helped lead the team to victory.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Their role would not be definitive, because a definitive role would be a killer striker, an experienced creative mid and a strong fast and experienced central defender. These are our defects. As is we would have gotten: a similar player to Julian de G in Hargreaves, a workhorse with passing quality but no goal scorer and only an average passer: an inexperienced creative mid who may still be too young to make an impact, but could have given us a bit of bite and flash from the middle; and a more reliable keeper, Bundesliga quality, physically stronger than what we have and perhaps more of a leader on the field (two average MLS keepers, one getting on in years, and a Champions League quality keeper who has not played more than a year straight as a starter in the last 5.)

So the difference with these three would have been slight, probably not enough to beat Mexico there but maybe enough to have held on vs. Honduras or saved that stinker Jamaica scored on us.

The point that each of these talents do not address our most pressing need is true. I would add that they would have strenghtened our MF greatly and you could never be strong enough in that area. Besides, opposing teams have REALLY been keying in on Julian deguzman and given him no space at all to work. Having other players, whose credentials garner respect, would have craeted more space for Julian De Guzman and made him that much better. You could have also moved some talent in other positions to strenghten those areas of weakness that you mentioned. For example, if called upon Atiba has shown at the U20 that he can be tournament all star when called upon to play central defense. Alternatively, either of the two deguzmans would of IMO been a better option as a fwd than what we currently have. Again, as u20 in Victoria, Julian DeGuzman did play up front.

I still stand by my comments though. I would add that in regards to Jonathan deGuzman, that for comparative purposes, he has not yet garnered the headlines or proven to be more impactful as a player than Dos santos, Bradley or even Altidore. Bradley is starter for his national side and scored already in WCQ. Jon DeGuzman, meanwhile didn't make Holland's national side at the Euros. Yes, I know there is a difference between Holland and the USA. But judging from what happened at the Olmpics, it might not be as great as some would have you believe. And Yes, I know that Altidore and Dos santos are fwd's not MF's.

Yet, the implication often made here, is that as far as concacaf there was nobody else other than Jonathan Deguzman as a youth player. There were good players at the last U20 WCQ in Canada. And those players that I mentioned stood out from the games i saw and impressed even more than anything that I saw from the czech and austrian players who went just one or two rounds further than the USA. Plus Mex were defending U17 WC champs. The gap between these players and some of standouts from say Arg and Chile was not as noticable as some would have you suggest. Yet some of those south americans ( Aguero, Pato) are already steady fixtures on the their national teams or stars at teh club level. Jono was not even on the bench for Holland on the Euro side. So, yeah, you have to be impressed with Jono. But the hype we read on the boards.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Free kick, your analysis is spot on.

People's judgment is often clouded by the club that a player plays on. I also doubt Fernandes would have been an improvement over what we have but it might have been nice to find out for sure.

As much as I don't like Whore I, he has been a proven quantity at both club and international level.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

You could have wondered about the difference between Lars at Rosenborg playing Champions and Fernandes at Paok, one year in UEFA, the others not.

But given the current set-up, with Fernandes a mid-table keeper in Germany and Lars not even dressing for Cluj, it is an easy call.

I would have liked to have had them both over the last few years.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Although club level is probably the only measurement we have to go by I pay it no mind. As much as I like Friend, Gerba is scoring for the NT and Rob is not. Hell I remember a time when Paul Fenwick was playing at one of the top club levels, compared to the rest. Did that make him the best talent?

Sometimes luck and being at the right place at the right time is the arbiter of one guy making the team or not, as compared to another possibly more talented guy at another time.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Joe MacCarthy

Free kick, your analysis is spot on.

People's judgment is often clouded by the club that a player plays on. I also doubt Fernandes would have been an improvement over what we have but it might have been nice to find out for sure.

One more thing, No sign of Jon DeGuzman in Hollands line up in the most recent WCQ matches:

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/europe/matches/round=250471/match=300041220/index.html

Interesting considering that we are talking about a national side who( to a fault) has a propensity to loose patients far to quickly with veterans and experience and call on younger and younger players.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Joe MacCarthy

Although club level is probably the only measurement we have to go by I pay it no mind. As much as I like Friend, Gerba is scoring for the NT and Rob is not. Hell I remember a time when Paul Fenwick was playing at one of the top club levels, compared to the rest. Did that make him the best talent?

Sometimes luck and being at the right place at the right time is the arbiter of one guy making the team or not, as compared to another possibly more talented guy at another time.

Conversely, another excellent example is that of Sandro Grande in the last round of WCQ. When called upon, I thought that he was one of our best players. Thought fitness and endurance appeared to be an issue. But still, we were talking about guy who showed me things that I couldnt see from soem of our players who ply their trade in Germany or England.

In fact, I hope he get called for the October games.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Joe MacCarthy

Although club level is probably the only measurement we have to go by I pay it no mind. As much as I like Friend, Gerba is scoring for the NT and Rob is not. Hell I remember a time when Paul Fenwick was playing at one of the top club levels, compared to the rest. Did that make him the best talent?

Sometimes luck and being at the right place at the right time is the arbiter of one guy making the team or not, as compared to another possibly more talented guy at another time.

Or, as in the case with youth players, maybe some have better contacts. or forged the right relationahips.

I can think of a couple of examples from the past U20 teams going back to 2001, whereby the the club affiliaton listed next to their names would have sounded somewhat impressive. But when you actually get to see them play, well they didn't look very good at all.

[PSG]

Two English-born hockey players have represented Canada - Byron Dafoe and Steve (I can't for the life me remember his surname but he played for Toronto and Detroit in the early 2000's and came from Stockport).

As for the case of Hargreaves, if his parents are English and his siblings were born there and he's been raised in an English family then he obviously feels more of an attachment to England - that's his choice. Canada, the US, even countries like Italy, France and Republic of Ireland have thrived on having foreign-born players in their squads. I don't see a problem with it as long as the player in question has a family link to that country.

[KidCanada]

Fernandes

Stalteri Serioux Hastings(mckenna)Klukowski

Hargreaves

De Guzman(2) De Guzman(1) Hutchinson De Rosario

Friend

what could have been maybe the best 11 in CONCACAF[xx(]

[KidCanada]

Fernandes

Stalteri Serioux Hastings(mckenna)Klukowski

Hargreaves

De Guzman(2) De Guzman(1) Hutchinson De Rosario

Friend

what could have been maybe the best 11 in CONCACAF[xx(]

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by PSG

Two English-born hockey players have represented Canada - Byron Dafoe and Steve (I can't for the life me remember his surname but he played for Toronto and Detroit in the early 2000's and came from Stockport).

Thomas?

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Thomas?

Got it in one!

[Keano]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

Got it in one!

Owen Nolan was born in Belfast. Also there were several way way back in the 20s and 30s. When a very large percentage of Canadians were actually still born in Britain.