Too little, too late ?

[maccaliam]

quote:Originally posted by Loud Mouth Soup

Traitor? Wow. I'd have jumped ship, too, if I knew what was going on (or wasn't). How does leaving a pathetic organization like the CSA make him a traitor?

I assume you back Hargreaves for playing for England instead of Canada, and are all for JD2, or any other Canadians who instead of playing for Canada, go and play for whatever other country offers them a slightly better opportunity to get more exposure/money?

Yallop can F*&k right off, and so can anyone else who thinks like him.

I understand why Yallop chose to quit as the MNT manager. It is because he is a selfish ba&%^d who is only interested in personal gain.

This kind of attitude is unacceptable. Have a bit of love for your country boys.

"Loyalty" and "Patriotism" are not values that are solely found within players/coaches of the most successful countries.

Or at least, they shouldn't be.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

On the basis of these comments I am willing to give him a bit more benefit of the doubt. He is saying he did not have the budget to do his job as the senior men were not a priority for the CSA.

That is quite likely true, and even though Linford has said he wants us to play more, it is not clearly happening, and things have yet to clearly turn around.

I do agree though, that perhaps Frank should have put his foot down sooner. The tough thing was that he had just been hired, he was new, so perhaps he was giving his employers a bit of leeway. He was soft, but maybe he felt he should be having just come on board.

The key errors, in any case, were not playing another winter friendly when we got the first bye in WC qualifying.

Then some dubious choices for the team vs. Belize, which was important not for the rival, but as a way of defining his squad and getting them to work together.

Then a lack of a good solid camp and maybe a friendly before the first qualifiers themselves.

The choice of Vancouver as our base, when it would have been easier on players to be in the east.

Not insisting on having all his players available enough days in advance of each game.

Continuing to name players to the squad that were not going to be up to par, and failing to clearly define the team all through the semis and never come up with a solid block of players.

Weak control over the team leading to some disciplinary problems on the field, with resultant suspensions.

Oddly enough, by a year later the team was actually playing better, his 4-3-3 was starting to make sense, and you could see that he had some intelligent ideas for us, allowing us to play fairly attractive football as well.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

quote:Originally posted by maccaliam

I assume you back Hargreaves for playing for England instead of Canada, and are all for JD2, or any other Canadians who instead of playing for Canada, go and play for whatever other country offers them a slightly better opportunity to get more exposure/money?

First-that's an attempt to tell me my opinion, so you're comment is already lame.

And the situations are completely different, so don't go throwing that Owen crap out there as some sort of cover-all for your hatred of Frank. Getting paid in a full-time job to coach a team (national, club, school) is not the same as pulling on a shirt to actually represent your country for the rest of your life.

[Cheeta]

Just want to add that as much as I'd like to have seen all these possitions filled long ago I've been willing to cut the CSA (or those who are left) some slack as I think that there's a lot going on below the surface over there these days.

I'm guessing but me-thinks there's may be a tectonic shift in the way the existing CSA (as opposed to the Lindford CSA) views their mission to football in Canada, goals and the course they need to chart to achieve them.

There could be a lot of politicing going on about what the CSA fundimentaly "is". Serious maybe vicious politicing. And I'm sure it's hindering the hiring process. How can you hire someone to do something when you're not quite sure what that something is anymore?

It's true though, a lot will be said about what's going on at the CSA by who they hire for each and every one of these possitions.

Pity with that is The Mister may or may not be a good choice for our next MNT coach but we may never know. He could be "disqualified" for political reasons.

[VPjr]

Do you guys think there is a connection between Linford's decision to push back the date to name the coach and CEO to next weekend and "Canada Club Soccer Club Inaugural Symposium" happening in Toronto this weekend.

it might be just a stretch on my part but who knows?

[RJB]

Cheeta, I've been seeing 'change' in the CSA since we failed to qualify for USA 94. The fact is that it just isn't going to happen.

And Frank knew that. He bailed on the team, and the country rather than speak out about it.

And that's what Owen did too. His treatment from the CSA was not what he wanted, so he jumped ship rather than fight for change. These were two people in a position to make things different based on their profile, but they chose the easy way out, which only benefited them.

These comments from Yallop just confirm everything for me. He's a selfish man, with a poor coaching track record for Canada, and he refuses to accept that he did a crap job. That, and I'm still convinced that he took a bung for Jaime Peters signing at Ipswich, which is the only explanation for Peters getting any time on the park.

[sj]

so what else can you do when the CSA does not want to chnage

turn into trouble maker and let the CSA give you a bad name

who will hire a trouble maker after that.

If you were choosen for the job what would you have done when the CSA does not comply to your demands?

how many games do you think the new coach will need to look at the player pool and how many games after that he needs to gel together the players that will try to get us to South Africa.

by the time Gold cup comes around he wont have much of a say about player selection

he will be told which player he should stick with.

so you cannot really count the Gold cup as player evaluation

all it will tell him is which players not to bother with anymore.

a job that should be done before the Gold cup so that can start working with the players that he thinks worth working with and the Gold cup would be a good platform to stamp his style and tactics.

to make sure he get it right comes WCQ.

[RJB]

He could have made public his concerns while he was the head coach, and that wouldn't have made him a trouble maker as long as his concerns were legitimate and not just whining. This way it would have exposed the CSA to Canada.

But instead, he turned and ran, and now his words do sound like whining. And if you ask me, they are - even if he's right.

[sj]

Holger did make it public he did say it like it is even on his first

media introduction and he was told to shut up by the CSA brass infront of everybody including tv cameras.

did it change anything?

when you pay somebody 500K you want to make he is on the job as often as possible thats over 1 grand per day.

what Yallop is doing is just comfirming how clueless the CSA is about how to be successful.

anybody would have left for the same reasons and they all did.

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by sj

...anybody would have left for the same reasons and they all did.

And will continue to do so unless there are some drastic changes in the CSA.

[Mighty_TorontoFC]

quote:Originally posted by The Ref

And will continue to do so unless there are some drastic changes in the CSA.

Fifa have shut down other corrupt FA's in the past maybe they should do the same to the CSA until they get somone who gives a damn for the sport in this country in charge!!!

[Grizzly]

Noone is denying that the CSA is poorly run. However, it was certainly far from impossible to succeed given the circumstances Yallop was in nor was it impossible to change the circumstances or at the very least make an effort to do so. Someone who does a good job in poor circumstances has a right to complain. Someone like Yallop who does a very poor job under those circumstances should look at his own role in the results and not blame everyone else.

[sj]

how many tune up home game did Yallop get from the CSA prior to the first qualifying game

as a matter of fact how many did the CSA provided to the coaches in place in the last ten yrs

to qualify you have to take care of business at home first

how can you make sure you win at home when a team play only 2 or 3 tune up game at home in ten yrs.

we lost against T&T in our first WQC game and to Guatemala in simply because we did not play enough prep game at home period.

what the CSA is asking is miracles.

bring a one million dollar coach and he wont do any better under the circumstance.

[Grizzly]

He had two official friendlies one of which he used for a B-team friendly. Besides that he had the two WCQ games against the very weak opponent Belize which should have been used as warmup matches for the later round. Between the Belize games and first match of the next round he had two unofficial friendlies against club teams which he again used as B friendlies.

Any decent coach taking over a new team with not much training time would realize he has to chose a team initially and go with it only making minor changes not the wholesale type of changes Yallop made in his lineup. A good coach would also realize that any friendly opportunity has to be used on the A team. The time for B team friendlies is in the year's before WCQ. Yallop could have done the logical/competent things given that he had limited preparation time and friendlies before WCQ. Instead he chose to play the B team and make constant changes to his lineup so their was no consistency to the team. This is also not to mention that number of friendlies is something one can negotiate in contract talks before taking the position. Once again I state if you are going to complain about the conditions you have to do the best possible job under them not the worst possible job like Yallop.

It is certainly a mystery why such an absolute failure as coach who showed no loyalty to the team has so many people willing to make excuse after excuse for his failures.

[sj]

name the two official friendlies that was played in Canada.

the MIlwall game was arrange by the BCSA had nothing to do with the CSA it was a last munite thing and did not fall on the FIFA international calendar the other club friendly was against his old club more like a personal favor for the services rendered Hardly warrant a full call up design to look at the player pool.

really the preparation was poor and the CSA is mostly responsible for that.

Guatemala played over ten games prior to their first game against canada in a span of 30 days during the European Championship.

we played a Big zero and of course common sense prevailed in that encounter a 2-0 defeat on home turf.

dont forget he is the one that brought four Canadians to MLS that is more than what we have seen on the field from MoJo and Tororto fc.

If you ask me he indirectly is still serving Canadian soccer.

with him out expect more canadians playing at least at that level.

[Daniel]

2 friendlies: Barbados and Wales.

1 unofficial: SJ Earthquakes.

[Grizzly]

Yallop's preparations for when the real WCQ began against Guatemala were as follows:

Camp and friendly against Barbados that he used for the B team

Camp in Manchester for the A team (why did he not use this for a friendly?)

Camp and friendly against Wales A team

A two week period in which the team was together and played an unofficial friendly against San Jose and two early round WCQ games against Belize

An unofficial friendly against Millwall in which he used a B team.

This preparation schedule is no where near as bad as his apologizers claim but he certainly could have used it better. The big problem was the radical changes he made in his selections between the Belize friendly and the Guatemala game. The team that had played together under him up to now was torn apart. The senior national team head coach is also an important member of the CSA leadership and when a lack of friendlies occurs is also partly to blame. It is interesting that Dale Mitchell never seems to have problems getting friendlies and had quite a few during the time Yallop should have been preparing us properly for WCQ. Most national team coaches also view team budget/preparation as an important part of contract negotiating though it seems that this was not an issue for Yallop. It certainly is not very effective, responsible or ethical to complain about a lack of friendlies a year after you left a job to go coach David Beckham.

What he does at the club level is immaterial to the question of whether he was a good national team coach or not. I suspect though that his interest in certain Canadian players has a lot to do with his philosophy of playing guys he is friends with. It may work at a club level but certainly did not work for us in WCQ. If he continues to employ Canadians I will give him credit for it but this does not change the fact that he was a terrible national team coach who led us to one of our poorest ever WCQ showings.

[jpg75]

The 2 week camp started in the UK and consisted of the friendly with Wales on May 31st, a trip to California to play San Jose on June 2nd(?) and then the two WCQ against Belize. We were looking good up until then, and had 10-11 weeks to go til WCQ. What did we do during that time!? We played 2 "B" friendlies against Millwall and Hearts! Like SJ said, these were setup by the BCSA, so the CSA/FY didn't even schedule any friendlies themselves prior to Guatemala. Meanwhile those Guates were training together since early July and played 8-10 friendlies against El Salvador, Panama, Honduras etc.

[An Observer]

My recollections may be a little fuzzy but basically if my memory serves correctly Holger Osiek was fired in the summer after a poor Gold Cup performance in 2003. Colin Miller took over and coached a couple of friendlies in the autumn of 2003. In December/January, they hired Yallop. He managed Canada for his first friendly on 31 May against Wales and played San Jose afterwards plus the two matches against Belize. Therefore, in the year leading up to the first meaningful WCQ match in the summer of 2004, we played 4 matches under our new coach. 2 of which were against a substandard micky mouse caribbean opponent, and 1 against a US club side. It took Yallop from the point of being hired almost 6 months to play an A friendly. That is simply extremely poor preparation for a national side going into qualifying.

I agree that he made poor choices with respect to his selections and that probably compounded the problems we faced in qualifying. This being said, when we had 12 months to replace a coach and get friendlies after firing Holger, the CSA and/or Yallop did a poor job. From my perspective, it seems that Yallop probably had his hands tied to a certain extent. However, you cannot start your World Cup qualifying with one really meaningful friendly in the year leading up to qualifying. They should have hired someone in the early autumn of 2003, and played about 10 matches prior to WCQ so that he could evaluate all the players, develop a suitable playing style, and create a cohesive unit. We did not do that and we were woeful against Guatemala which put us behind the 8 ball from the beginning from which we could never recover.

[sj]

Well observed

and now we have the same senario an interim coach that does not know if he is coming or going one that could not even get our u-17 qualify in two attemps running the team for the last 8 months or so.

he does not have a clue what the future is the players dont have a clue either

complete darkness.

[Grizzly]

Here are the exact dates that Yallop had the team together.

Jan 12-23 Camp and friendly against Barbados that he used for the B team

March 28 – April 1 Camp in Manchester for the A team (why did he not use this for a friendly?)

May 25-June 1 Camp and friendly against Wales A team

June 2-16 A two week period in which the team was together and played an unofficial friendly against San Jose and two early round WCQ games against Belize

July 10-14 An unofficial friendly against Millwall in which he used a B team.

Aug 16-18 First real WCQ game against Guatemala (preparation time was so short because Yallop did not call European players for the full period he was allowed)

There is no way we can compare the preparation to a team like Guatemala since most of their players are domestic. We will never be able to train together or play as many friendlies as teams that have the majority of their players in a domestic league until that is the case with us. Yallop had a pretty decent preparation for a Canadian coach when one looks at the amount of time he had the team together. Before the Belize series he had the team for an almost unprecedented 3 weeks starting with the camp and friendly with Wales. The big problem is that the team he had together for this period was not the one he selected for the Guatemala game.

What is missing from this discussion is what was Yallop's role in determining the preparation. What did he ask the CSA for? Why didn't he hold a friendly instead of the Manchester camp? Why did he use the Barbados game for the B team? I think many of the friendly and camp decisions were also strongly influenced by Yallop. Even conceding that the Millwall camp was on short notice many of the A team players would have been available because they were still on holiday or only just starting their pre-season training. I think Yallop chose to play such a young team to showcase them to Millwall which would not have been a bad idea if it wasn't in the middle of WCQ. There should indeed have been a friendly between Belize and Guatemala but did Yallop request this? Remember this is a coach who on the eve of WCQ with a must-win game in the hardest city for most of our players to travel to (the location of which I think was also influenced by Yallop) did not consider the game important enough to call our players for the full period of time alloted by FIFA.

I think a coach who:

1) Not only selects a poor team but changes the team drastically from the team he prepared with.

2) Plays his friends over more capable players.

3) Does not call adequate bench strength so he can replace injured and underperforming players.

4) Caps teenagers in WCQ matches

5) Plays with ineffective tactics not suited to the team

6) Does not substitute effectively nor does he react to underperforming players by not playing them.

7) Alienates a large number of players in a short time period

8) Does not run proper training sessions (I have seen his practices)

Etc. etc. the list of Yallop F-uck-ups is almost unendless

Does not have the right to bitch about lack of preparation time as the reason for failure. A good competent coach would have done much better with the preparation time given to Yallop.

[sj]

the Guates prepare did the major preparation during the the European championship

tell me which european club team was in action during that time that made our core players available

probably the CSA sweet talk yallop into the job and promised proper support and understanding then could not deliver

how many times have you gone for job interview and was promised the world and only to find out that ther is too many conditions that make it impossible for you to fullfill your duties in a professional manner and the only sensible solution is to get out of that dump

check and compare the amount of support and prep games that other key competor for Canada had during the same period you will find out that the ratio is probably five to ten times more.

even the Panama coach had more tune-up games

what was the idea behind giving Miller a couples of games?

how much did it benefit Yallop.

I am not defending Yallop personally it is wrong for the CSA to give any coach for that matter the KInd of mickey support and think that they can turn Canada into a serious contender for one of the available spot.

and what is with all those foreign band playing at the nats games?

the players had said that it make them feels inferior when they walk out of the pitch and hear carribean music playing to greet the other team

cant the CSA put some guidelines together to make sure which ever city is hosting the game does not resort to such tactics.

this is a seroius WCQ game not a funfair or circus.

[Grizzly]

SJ, why do you feel it necessary to constantly recite excuse after excuse for Yallop without even considering what part he himself played in the whole fiasco? You sound like Yallop himself, all excuses, all blaming others not taking any personal responsibility. And to moreover claim you are not defending Yallop personally really takes the cake. I agree that we can do better in preparing our team for WCQ. The most important part of this better preparation is hiring a competent and experienced coach. In Yallop we had an inexperienced coach who may be adequate for a 2nd tier league like MLS but was inadequate for international soccer and who on top of that played his buddies instead of selecting the team on merit. His results and actions speak for themselves.

[stacks]

Frank Yallop should have been fired on the simple fact that Pat Onstad was in goal. He single handedly cost us the Qualifying.

[sj]

those are not excuses those are facts

our failure to qualify since 86 has more to do with the incomptence of the CSA than the incompetence of the coaches.

from Tony Taylor to Frank Yallop the common denominator is the CSA.

just like any good teacher or professor he has to be given ample to spend with his students to be able to work with them properly.

if not what we will keep getting is bandaid solutions.

If I hire someone to tutor my kid I make sure my kid is available as much as possible.

would be nice the conditions and terms are made public after they pick the next coach then we will know who is not deliver on theirs promises.