Sutton to TFC? Not so fast...

[Daniel]

Rumour has it that Saputo's playing hardball for the transfer fee and MLS is getting a bit annoyed.

Where will Sutton play next year? Nothing's set just yet!

[cndsoccer]

good... i don't want him anyway...he is way overated!!!

[RS]

So much for the Impact's "policy" of not standing in the way of their players' aspirations. [8)]

[Grizzly]

What the hell was Sutton thinking when he signed such a long contract last year anyway when he already knew TFC was coming? I have a feeling that Saputo may be using this situation to get revenge for hurt feelings about how the MLS situation was handled by the CSA.

[Cheeta]

Well MLS has screwed over more than one fellow who was looking at Europe before their contract ran out by asking too much transfer money so what goes around comes around sooner or later.

Thought Sutton was free to move AFTER the '07 season? If I'm right, the Impact might want to deal now while they can still get something. No sense giving anything away though.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I have a feeling that Saputo may be using this situation to get revenge for hurt feelings about how the MLS situation was handled by the CSA.

That's pretty much how it is. When you go back to his quotes from the time, you see this is what he had in mind.

[RJB]

And why shouldn't Saputo play hard ball? He's got to protect his assets.

Who's at fault here is Sutton. He had no business signing such a long deal if he had intentions of moving to TFC. Unless of course there was a gentlemen's agreement between him and Mr. Saputo, but that would have been made clear at the time, or at least by now.

[Montreal_FC_fan]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

So much for the Impact's "policy" of not standing in the way of their players' aspirations. [8)]

That "policy" is long gone ever since the Grande and Gerba transfers...

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by RJB

And why shouldn't Saputo play hard ball? He's got to protect his assets.

Who's at fault here is Sutton. He had no business signing such a long deal if he had intentions of moving to TFC. Unless of course there was a gentlemen's agreement between him and Mr. Saputo, but that would have been made clear at the time, or at least by now.

Of course Sutton is only looking after himself as well. He's certainly the best in USL1 and he's certainly looking at a rather fit transfer fee and salary that ranks him up there with the best MLS keepers.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by Montreal_FC_fan

That "policy" is long gone ever since the Grande and Gerba transfers...

To clarify: the Impact reviewed their policy of letting players go mid-season.

[bettermirror]

reviewed? you mean, changed in the interest of business/money-making.

all the power to Montreal. if sutton was dumb enough to sign a long-term contract he should have been prepared for difficulties in agreeing to a transfer fee. a goalie of his quality will secure a tidy sum for L'Impact. i hope sutton isn't getting in his own way by demanding an exhorbitant % of the transfer fee. I hope Saputo isn't demanding an exhorbitant transfer fee!

[Richard]

I would think a move to Toronto FC would be a good upward career move for Sutton. I trust that Saputo will not stand in his way unreasonably.

[bettermirror]

of course it would be a good move - but saputo wants to get his money's-worth. what he believes that to be - tbd i guess.

[BrennanFan]

this will be an incredibly difficult transfer. saputo sees sutton as a proven allstar/international callibre keeper and TFC will frame it as a transfer for a quality USL-1 keeper unproven at a higher level. add the lengthy contract, suttons fondness for playing for the impact, and saputos feelings for MLS/CSA and it will be a miracle if it happens.

[Grizzly]

The Impact is certainly within their rights to demand whatever they want. If the transfer does not go through because of the contract this is clearly Sutton's fault do to his lack of foresight and maybe some loyalty to the Impact which depending on Saputo's conduct in this issue may be misplaced loyalty. I do, however, have the impression that Saputo may be playing a bit harder with TFC than he would if Sutton were going to transfer to say a Norwegian club. I don't think TFC has Sutton penciled in as a set starter so there is probably a limit to how much they are willing to pay for him. Even if he signs I think TFC is probably going to sign a foreign keeper or possibly Kenny S to challenge Sutton for the job. If Sutton's transfer price is too high I think TFC will rightly decide to bring in a foreign keeper as a starter rather than overpay for someone simply because he is Canadian. Another option would be not to sign Sutton and try to get Onstad as a starter. I think TFC will either end up with Sutton or Onstad with a quality foreigner to challenge him or will sign a good foreign keeper with a second choice Canadian keeper to challenge him, ie. Kenny S. or one of the younger keepers.

The problem for Sutton is that his market worth on the open market is not very high if the Canadian factor is not considered. There are a lot of keepers on the open market of Sutton's calibre who would come fairly cheap and with no transfer fee. For example, I think the Whitecaps Caig showed that he was just as good a keeper this year even though he was playing on a much less defensively solid team than the Impact (If TFC sign Caig than we can have another fun discussion with Jeffery S. about why a foreigner is the TFC starting keeper ). Sutton has as yet not proven that he can play at a higher level professionally than the USL even though his national team performances indicate that he probably can.

If TFC is smart they will realize they hold all the cards in this situation so there is no reason to overpay for Sutton. Signing Sutton would be good for the national team and Sutton's career but it is not the job of TFC to get screwed looking after the national team and Sutton's interests if the Impact is not doing the same. There are other options for TFC and I am sure they are exploring them if Saputo is playing hardball. Sutton himself has shown a remarkable lack of ambition and foresight in his career to this point so if he does not play for TFC this year he has only himself to blame. If Lars Hirschfeld returns to the national team, it is also crucial for Sutton to be playing at a higher level than USL if he wants to maintain his position as Canada's No. 1.

[loyola]

Excellent analysis Grizzly, I agree with you 110%!!!

[loyola]

Excellent analysis Grizzly, I agree with you 110%!!!

[georg]

Unless Suton keep playing well and the other keep falling off the challenge. At what point does TFC gamble?

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by bettermirror

reviewed? you mean, changed in the interest of business/money-making.

No, I mean reviewed inasmuch as the Impact won't sell crucial players mid-season because they got seriously burnt by losing Grande and Gerba in 2005. This doesn't apply for Sutton. The Impact started with long-term contracts with its rebirth in 2002.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

The problem for Sutton is that his market worth on the open market is not very high if the Canadian factor is not considered....

If TFC is smart they will realize they hold all the cards in this situation so there is no reason to overpay for Sutton.

Sutton's worth to Red Bull, or Salt Lake doesn't matter. Sutton's worth to Toronto is quite another thing.

His Canadian citizenship is hugely important, and the fact he's a 'keeper just slightly less so.

TFC has a minimal quota of Canadians it must field and I think they'll find it far easier to optain foreign outfield players on the cheap than they will find anything resembling a quality or proven Canadian 'keeper who'll work at MLS wages. (If you want to add Onstad to the list that makes my list 2).

He's Canadian and a 'keeper with international experience. Recent events in the EPL aside, he'll be pretty secure from injury and an easy pencil in on the roster to meet the Canadian quota game in and game out. He'll give Mo more outfield options just because he is Canadian and can be expected to be reliable. By that I mean he won't be forced to play a Canadian outfield just because they're Canadian.

Why do you think all CFL kickers are Canadians and better paid than almost all American imports (excepting of course the star players). Don't handicap yourself by using up an import slot if you can have a Canadian do the same job, nearly as good or better as any import.

And if you've got to pay a little more for that benefit, you do. Or don't. Whatever. But I think it's a mistake not to. See if you can find a Canadian striker who's worth a damn to meet your quota while the Mexican plays keep every game next year.

Saputo's playing this right.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Sutton's worth to Red Bull, or Salt Lake doesn't matter. Sutton's worth to Toronto is quite another thing.

His Canadian citizenship is hugely important, and the fact he's a 'keeper just slightly less so.

TFC has a minimal quota of Canadians it must field and I think they'll find it far easier to optain foreign outfield players on the cheap than they will find anything resembling a quality or proven Canadian 'keeper who'll work at MLS wages. (If you want to add Onstad to the list that makes my list 2).

He's Canadian and a 'keeper with international experience. Recent events in the EPL aside, he'll be pretty secure from injury and an easy pencil in on the roster to meet the Canadian quota game in and game out. He'll give Mo more outfield options just because he is Canadian and can be expected to be reliable. By that I mean he won't be forced to play a Canadian outfield just because they're Canadian.

Why do you think all CFL kickers are Canadians and better paid than almost all American imports (excepting of course the star players). Don't handicap yourself by using up an import slot if you can have a Canadian do the same job, nearly as good or better as any import.

And if you've got to pay a little more for that benefit, you do. Or don't. Whatever. But I think it's a mistake not to. See if you can find a Canadian striker who's worth a damn to meet your quota while the Mexican plays keep every game next year.

Saputo's playing this right.

The problem with your analysis Cheeta is that you are overrating Sutton's ability and experience. If TFC is also overrating him then maybe Saputo is right to do what he is doing. One pays a premium in the CFL for established Canadian players who have shown they are of CFL quality. Sutton is not an established player who has shown he can play at MLS level. In fact, whether Sutton can be a starting MLS keeper is completely unproven at this point. Sutton has played 5 MLS games and was not very successful although admittedly this was quite a while ago (98 and 00). Since then he has performed well at the USL level though playing behind the best defence in the league. However, when he was injured this year his backup came in and did equally well.

Yes he has international experience but he is far from being an experienced international. In fact, he has only played 8 games for Canada and his record is decidely mediocre (4 wins 3 losses 1 tie). The wins have all come against poor to mediocre competition: Barbados, Cuba, Northern Ireland and a Jamaica B-team.

TFC can start up to 8 foreigners even though we all hope it will be less. They can thus afford to start a foreign keeper. Where they play foreigners will be determined by who is available at each position and at what cost. At all of the outfield positions I can think of a number of available Canadian players like Sutton (ie. USL players who should be given a shot at a higher level) and Europeans who are playing at mid-level clubs and might be willing to come home. Even at striker I could well imagine Gerba or Occean coming if offered a decent salary. The CFL starts Canadian kickers because unlike at quarterback or receiver we have a lot of good Canadian kickers not inferior or only slightly inferior to Americans at that position. Canada actually has very little depth at keeper as you mentioned. Yes we have two proven players professionally in the MLS or a similar/better level but Sutton isn't one of them. They probably aren't going to come to Toronto because Hirsch is in a better situation and Onstad is an American citizen and has an American wife. Given this TFC may decide that the keeper position is one where they will use a foreign spot. Even if Sutton does end up signing I think it is imperative that the other keeper is of similar quality, again because Sutton is an unproven commodity and this is a very important position.

I personally think that Sutton can be an MLS starting keeper. Yet I think his biggest assets are his size and that he doesn't make many mistakes. His natural keeping ability is somewhat mediocre and I have never seen him have games like Forrest had or Hirsch in the US game. He doesn't win you games but he doesn't lose you games either. He stops what he should and controls the ball well but doesn't make amazing save after amazing save. He has been decent in the MNT performances I have seen but I still think we need to upgrade this position. Maybe he will improve if he is playing in MLS but I think Hirsch has a lot more potential to be a Craig Forrest type goalie for us. I hope TFC can sign him but they shouldn't be overpaying for someone who could well end up as the backup keeper. In fact, I can't think of many Canadian players who Toronto should pay a lot for because those who would be worth a significant transfer fee are in better professional situations and probably not interested in coming to TFC.

[Cheeta]

In fact, I can't think of many Canadian players who Toronto should pay a lot for because those who would be worth a significant transfer fee are in better professional situations and probably not interested in coming to TFC.

Well, there's the rub. And that's been the worry since day one. Anyone overseas now, even in some of the lower leagues are better paid and experiencing a true football enviroment that no matter how professional TFC is/will be they just can't reproduce. And the upside in Europe will always seem higher. So who'd come back? And would you want them?

Totaly agree, you don't dink around at goalkeeper. As long as your 3rd is looked after you always have a punchers chance to steal a match against the rythem of play. But that being said, no on goes to Old Trafford hoping to see Van der Sar acrobatics.

I still think it's going to be 50x easier to find a quality, marketable outfield player on-the-cheap who's not Canadian than it is to find one who is. So where do you play your quota of Canadians?

They found Brennan. He's gonna be great. And here's Sutton. He can do the job, but he ain't free.

Maybe the Impact and TFC/MLS are light years apart on this. Who knows? But I doubt it.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

I still think it's going to be 50x easier to find a quality, marketable outfield player on-the-cheap who's not Canadian than it is to find one who is. So where do you play your quota of Canadians?

They found Brennan. He's gonna be great. And here's Sutton. He can do the job, but he ain't free.

Maybe the Impact and TFC/MLS are light years apart on this. Who knows? But I doubt it.

I think as Rudi's list shows there are number of Canadian outfield players available who could be starters for TFC (Bernier, Braz, Gervais, Occean, Gerba, Reda, Pozniak, Dodds, possibly Serioux or Jazic plus the already signed Brennan). They may not be the marketable stars of the team (though Brennan is and if they sign Bernier he will be too) but there are definitely enough potential starters available.

I am not saying that they shouldn't pay anything for Sutton. I am saying that they should pay a transfer fee for Sutton that is typical to pay for a 2nd division player who seems to have potential to play in the 1st division. If Saputo is asking for a transfer fee equivalent to what one would pay for an established MLS starter then I think Toronto should refuse to pay this because Sutton is not an established MLS starter. A good compromise would be to give the Impact a high percentage of any future Sutton transfer fees. I agree with Rudi that probably what will happen is Saputo will make a lot of noise and demands but in the end a reasonable fee will be agreed upon.

The case of Kenny S. this year shows why TFC should 1) not overpay and 2) needs to hire a second keeper capable of starting if Sutton does not play as well as expected. This is a very good comparison because the level of play in the 1st div in Norway is similar to MLS and div 2 is similar to USL. Kenny has had several years of success playing in Scandanavian 2nd division clubs. In 2005 he played very well for us in 3 MNT games two of which were against strong opposition, Spain and Austria. All indicators pointed to him being a good signing for Tromso and capable of playing in the 1st division. Yet he has played very poorly this year and lost his starting job.

[georg]

See alot of Maple Leafs dreamers. As with Suton as witj last time the M

[georg]

See alot of Maple Leafs dreamers. As with Suton as with the last time Maple Leafs won in 1967 with two Great Goaltenders in Bower and Sawchuk, do not waist local talent especially goal keepers. At least I can remember what it took.