Whitecaps 2011 Review Thread

[Macksam]

Funny how Vancouver made almost exactly the same mistake TFC did. They built up and hyped up a fan base and they tried to paint **** gold with a bunch of foreign flags. This team isn't a potato, it's a bunch of french fries (no pun intended). The elevens they've put out make absolutely no sense, as I said earlier in the season it's like they're playing EA Sports FIFA, throwing out the 'highest rated' players instead of a cohesive XI. If you watched their first match with TT in charge (vs. TFC at home) that XI made sense to me, Koffie and Dunfield in the middle could actually put a halt to an attack, Teibert actually tracked back on the left wing. Then what happened? Camilo emerged and earned his starting spot. But instead of dropping someone who would make sense Vancouver looked to appease every undersized attacking player at once.

Yeah, the first game was promising and Tiebert and Chiamento were deadly on the wings. However, the coaching stuff got stupid after that.

[Soccerpro]

Funny how Vancouver made almost exactly the same mistake TFC did. They built up and hyped up a fan base and they tried to paint **** gold with a bunch of foreign flags. This team isn't a potato, it's a bunch of french fries (no pun intended). The elevens they've put out make absolutely no sense, as I said earlier in the season it's like they're playing EA Sports FIFA, throwing out the 'highest rated' players instead of a cohesive XI. If you watched their first match with TT in charge (vs. TFC at home) that XI made sense to me, Koffie and Dunfield in the middle could actually put a halt to an attack, Teibert actually tracked back on the left wing. Then what happened? Camilo emerged and earned his starting spot. But instead of dropping someone who would make sense Vancouver looked to appease every undersized attacking player at once.

An accurate observation.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I’m not sure I feel like I want to review the VWFC season but I think we, the V’s, should be reviewing the VWFC place in our forum. I truly think the discussions about VWFC belongs to the World Soccer forum. That's my only comment about their season.

I've voiced my concerns to the FO as a season ticket holder that mediocre Americans have taken jobs away from both residency graduates and returning Canadian youth internationals. These concerns remain largely unanswered. Derrick Bassi was taken into the reserve PDL side, but we lost several players including Porter, REB, Gage, and Bellisomo who could easily be part of our current club. I suspect that the answer to the latter criticism is that although the residency has been in place since 2007, these kids came through a system who's goal was to send players to Europe. We shouldn't be overly surprised that Gage turned down a developmental deal to try his luck in England. It's really only been since 2009/2010 where Thomas Niendorf left and Richard Groscholten has been brought in to develop players for the first team.

I will renew my tickets on the basis of the following developments in 2011:

-Over 75 Canadian player have been brought to Vancouver from across the country to participate in our academy at the U-14, U-16, and U-18 level.

-They training year-round and will play approximately 25 matches per season against the best players at their age group in the US.

-They are some 10-12 full-time staff dedicated to the program, receiving instruction from 5 full-time youth coaches, 4 of whom have all of their UEFA badges

-They have hired a promising young manager in North America who will, for the first time, be able to work with a full youth academy

Only TFC have anything remotely close to this kind of set-up. Personally, I think our academy is better. It's only a matter of time before their are several Russell Teibert coming out every season. If we have faith in the quality of our players at the U14 level, then this can be the only plausible outcome. Once Tom Soehn resigns, I suspect there will no longer be a club bias toward mediocre NCAA draft picks.

Even in these dark times, I'd like to ask:

How many young Canadian players are training with Quebec City FC or Calgary FC? How many of their recent academy graduates are currently playing professionally in Europe or NASL?

I'm not directing this question specifically at Loyola or Ed, as I think the three of us agree on most things. I just think the little kicks while we're down should perhaps stop. When you look at the bigger picture, the future of Canadian soccer is looking very promising and anyone who doesn't see VWFC as a big part of that is not being very objective IMO.

[Keegan]

With Rennie in the charge the future definitely looks bright for you guys, the man clearly has a football brain and from the moment he takes over I'm sure he'll look to actually put pieces together (as Winter has been allowed to do in Toronto, we are finally seeing progress).

[RS]

Only TFC have anything remotely close to this kind of set-up. Personally, I think our academy is better.

Not looking to start a pissing match, but I'm genuinely curious as to how you came to that conclusion.

To me, Vancouver's academy was better, and did a ton of great work during the Niendorf era. They've been re-inventing themselves, which is fine, but in that time TFC's academy has done a lot of catching up, and one could argue that this year they've been the better of the two (based on number of youth national call-ups, plus the excellent showing by the academy grads they brought up to the first team in early 2011).

I wrote this in another thread a while back, but I think that from now on neither academy is going to be markedly better than the other. As long as both clubs continue the current committment shown to youth development (complete lack of first team opportunities from the Whitecaps, notwithstanding), they'll likely ebb-and-flow as talent cycles through and one generation stands out a bit more than the other.

Once Montreal (hopefully) catches up, it'll be a three-horse "race", with the real winners being the national program.

[youllneverwalkalone]

^Not looking to enter a pissing match, but...

1. Bias: I'm a VWFC supporter, so I have to believe our academy is better so as not to off myself.

2. Coaching: I'm a big fan of Winter and Declerk, so this may not matter that much, but I don't think Brennan and Dichio have great credentials to coach youth players. I've heard second hand grumblings that Brennan especially is out of his depth. None of them, including Neely, have the creditials (UEFA A Licenses) that RG, Craig Darlymple, Steve Meadley, and Bart Charfour have.

3. Developmental League: Joining the USSDA is huge. The CSL runs a few months during the summer and then what? Our U18 and U16 teams will be playing 25 matches a year, over a 10 month season, with the senior players graduating to the PDL in the summer. These guys will be able to play against the best players in the age group in the US. Most people seem to agree that top competition within your age group is the best way to develop for the next level.

4. Scouting: TFC only recruites in the GTA. This is a hotbed of talent for sure, but our U16s have been grabbing players from everywhere we are able, including Ontario.

5. Bias (But I definitely agree with your last sentence...)

[RS]

^Not looking to enter a pissing match, but...

1. Bias: I'm a VWFC supporter, so I have to believe our academy is better so as not to off myself.

2. Coaching: I'm a big fan of Winter and Declerk, so this may not matter that much, but I don't think Brennan and Dichio have great credentials to coach youth players. I've heard second hand grumblings that Brennan especially is out of his depth. None of them, including Neely, have the creditials (UEFA A Licenses) that RG, Craig Darlymple, Steve Meadley, and Bart Charfour have.

3. Developmental League: Joining the USSDA is huge. The CSL runs a few months during the summer and then what? Our U18 and U16 teams will be playing 25 matches a year, over a 10 month season, with the senior players graduating to the PDL in the summer. These guys will be able to play against the best players in the age group in the US. Most people seem to agree that top competition within your age group is the best way to develop for the next level.

4. Scouting: TFC only recruites in the GTA. This is a hotbed of talent for sure, but our U16s have been grabbing players from everywhere we are able, including Ontario.

5. Bias (But I definitely agree with your last sentence...)

Some quick responses...

1. Fair enough.

2. You may be right with the coaching, especially the breadth of names listed, although you'd be surprised just how hands on De Klerk is with the academy. I'd put his resume up against anyone else's in terms of youth development. If Jimmy B can learn something from him, then even better.

3. I think the USSDA is great, but it'd be hard to convince me that it's better than the CSL (where the U-19/U-17s are concerned). The TFC-A kids are learning their lumps weekly against fully grown men, which is better, IMO. I think the USSDA has a place for the younger ages (especially as TFC are starting their U-15 program next year), but for those who are older, the CSL is a better place to develop. That said, the season is shorter, even though the number of games is roughly the same (TFC-A has played 21 games in the CSL so far in 2011, with many more to come).

4. I think scouting is a wash, to be honest. MLS has set the boundaries, and both sides have agreed to abide by them. TFC has players from outside the GTA (ie. Dylan Carreiro from Winnipeg), but the population base in southern Ontario is such that they are always going to be overwhelmingly GTA-based.

5. Sometimes bias is good.

[youllneverwalkalone]

It will be interesting to see what happens with our 93/94s. In my heart I have to agree with you that playing against men should make you better, but most of the commentary I've encoutered on the topic appear to disagree.

In England it's quite common to see a 16 or 17 year-old suit up for the first team. You almost never see this in Germany, Spain, or Italy. Does this say something about youth development? Or is it the result of 92 pro clubs? Not sure, but the Caps have spent a ton of intangible capital getting into the USSDA, and they are holding back Fisk, Clarke, Alderson, Stanese, to go and win the league. The latter two, may even spend next season there.

I'm not sure if this is wise, but one unfortunate result for the critics is that we won't see dramatically more Canadians with the first team until this age group breaks through.

[Drew Shaw]

They don't need the blue shorts, those can disappear forever. What they need is the blue hoop, on the front and the back of the uniform. Make a unique statement.

Jarju is irredeemably crap. Sell him to anyone who will take him for anything you can get for him.

A lot of the rest of what you wrote I would agree with, other than the "buy Canadian at all costs" bit. I want to see more Canadians, but they are going to come via development rather than via transfers from European teams.

[ThiKu]

Specifically to nit-pick, Seathanaich, I can say I never once stated "buy Canadian at all costs." In fact, in the first post I said pretty clearly they would never be a mostly Canadian team - unless they promoted from the youth ranks. I then followed that up by pointing out SOME Canadians I'd love to see them sign - realizing they'll NEVER get all of them.

White shorts or blue shorts - I don't particularly care, to be honest. But the kit was always blue shorts. But anyway....the blue hoop is an absolute must. I will NOT buy a Whitecaps jersey until the hoop is back - and even then maybe not if they continue NOT to field Canadians.

I'll give Jarju another year. They won't get anything for him anyway from a Euro club, and if they sell him to another MLS club he'll score 10+ goals for them....#don'ttemptfate.

[betterredthandead]

They don't need the blue shorts, those can disappear forever. What they need is the blue hoop, on the front and the back of the uniform. Make a unique statement.

Jarju is irredeemably crap. Sell him to anyone who will take him for anything you can get for him.

A lot of the rest of what you wrote I would agree with, other than the "buy Canadian at all costs" bit. I want to see more Canadians, but they are going to come via development rather than via transfers from European teams.

I don't mind free transfers, or academy released players from European clubs. In fact if it brings us Canadians for the starting XI I am all for it. I am getting sick of watching the club with no Canadians on the pitch for entire games week in and week out. It just isn't right.

[Soccerpro]

Going into the season I thought the caps had an exceptional set up for success in their first MLS season. Boy was I wrong.

The majority of their games are disasters. TS = Mo Johnson. There is no other way to equate it. Whether it be signings - Joe Cannon - 200k, Jarju - DP, or horrible coaching. Rennie has a bigger task than most give him credit for next year. Yes there are some pieces in place, but there are so many problems areas with this team.

[BearcatSA]

I'd be curious to know how Vancouver stacks up against other MLS clubs in the possession department. Whenever I watched them play (even in their victories and draws) they seemed to struggle with retaining possession and ended up doing a lot of energy-consuming chasing.

Koffie looks like a real box to box presence that would help any central midfield in this league, regardless of formation. Sure, he has had some glitches and consistency issues but I have always been biased in my liking of that kind of player (Shalrie Joseph of a few years ago, Beckerman, and I even had high hopes for Tchani at TFC but his season washed out with injury).

[ThiKu]

Rennie has a big job, for sure, but there are a lot of excellent pieces there already. Hopefully Rennie is skilled enough to improve the ones he has and has an eye for ones to bring in....chopping some wages (Morfaw and Cannon) will be critical...

I'll still give Jarju another half season....

[betterredthandead]

Jarju on $427k is just weak. Thorrington on $200k is probably just as bad and Cannon is at least playing decent on his 200k of late. Morfaw for 90k.. yeah. Chiumiento at $280k isn't that bad but he has to play and Camilo for $130k is a great deal for how he's played. Some good money has been spent on Leathers and Long Tan. Even $1 a year is too much for Boxall IMO.

[ThiKu]

Boxall at 23 is one I wouldn't mind seeing replaced by a 18-20 year old.

All year I've been defending him because MLS and Whitecaps keep (and they, I now realize, do this for every draft pick) go on and on about "the massive potential so and so has....".....um, when a guy is 23....and just starting his pro career the odds are he ain't getting much better at all than he currently is.

So I'll change my tune re: Boxall - they should dump him if they can get a proper prospect (Bassi???) into the first team aged 18-20, OR, bring in a decent centre back to partner Demerit.

Long Tan is athletic but otherwise is not good enough.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

1. Philippe Davies - Keep, still young, cheap, Canadian and didn't much of a chance.

2. Russel Tiebert - Keep, same as Davies yet even more potential

3. Long Tan - a coin flip he doesn't have much room to grow but athletic enough to prove useful time to time, in the end, expendable.

4. Atiba Harris - Keep if healthy, started off strong then got hurt, but he is a proven MLS player when 100%, something we lacked all year

5. Alain Rochat - No Doubt Keeper

6. Jeb Brovsky - Should be shown the door, I'd rather of watched Chris Pozniak play RB this year

7. Joe Cannon - Retire

8. Jay DeMerit - Keeper, but he needs to prove his worth, being a healthy will go a long way to do that

9. Bilal Duckett - Just like Brovsky but even worse, lets see a Canadian in his spot

10. Jordan Harvey - Keep solid MLS fullback versatile and works hard.

11. Greg Janicki - Expendable, could be replaced, but then who would notice

12. Jonathan Leathers - need a upgrade over him

13. Michael Nanchoff - Jury is still out on him, maybe keep to see his worth

14. Jay Nolly - keep useful backup, but we will need an upgrade at goalie

15. Omar Salgado - Keep, and play him a lot more, so we can sell him eventually, which I think was the whole point of picking him

16. Shea Salinas - Keep, he is a useful player at the MLS player, guy runs all day

17. Brian Sylvestre - expendable, not sure why 3 goalies are a need in the MLS on a roster

18. John Thorrington - could go either way, if we can find an upgrade then yeah great, but he should shades of usefulness.

19. Peter Vagenas - Needs to go

20. Camilo - Stud, what a find he got in him

21. Carlyle Mitchell - was slightly impressed by him in his few outings at the end, could be worth to keep for a look next year

22. Alexandre Morfaw - Not sure what to say, not enough playing time to judge, taking a INT spot so I'd have to lean to No

23. Mustapha Jarju - Was thoroughly disappointed like everyone, but he'll be back and hopefully with a chip on his shoulder to perform

24. Gershon Koffie - Another Stud

25. Eric Hassli - Sure Fire Keep, not much has to be said for his case

26. Michael Boxall - I'd say we need an upgrade over him, but I wouldn't force it either.

27. Davide Chiumiento - Stud Keeper

28. Nizar Khalfan - Coin flip, though he has wheels and can get defense turning around late in games as a sub.

Rough outlook on next year's roster

-----------Upgrade

Upgrade-DeMerit-Upgrade-Rochat

-------------Koffie

---------Jarju---Chiumiento

Upgrade-----Hassli-----Camilo

Nolly

Mitchell

Harvey

Thorrington

Salinas

Harris

Salgado

Boxall

Davies

Morfaw

Nanchoff

Khalfan

Tiebert

Tan

I think that would be a generous assessment of the this years roster and yet with the right upgrades, could be turned into a competive MLS roster.

Excited to see how Rennie molds this squad going into the future

[ThiKu]

I also wonder if Jarju is moved into the team next year as a CM.....no clue if he'll track back though - and if he won't you can't have him and Dede beside each other in there. Right now, I'd put dede in ahead of Jarju and bring in a more box to box CM (like Will Johnson!!!).

Anyway.....probably need 4 new starters and 3-4 new subs.....

[Danny Boy]

This off season will be quitebinteresting as there are so many variables that will play out. first is the team reaction to Rennie coming in. hopefully they will respect him. Camilo is one of those players I'm not sure if we will see back purely because of his history of playing all over the world. cannon is a veteran we need to have in he dressing room but his salary is way too high for his ability. I can't see both him and Nolly back together. One will definitely be gone.

Kottonmouthed is correct where we need upgrades but I'm not sure I agree on who to keep around. Salinas and Harvey should only be kept in a bench situation and I wouldn't be disappointed if they moved on. I think Tiebert will prove to be a better winger over time. I'd like to see Harris stay and be played on the wide right. He drew a lot of attention in his first 5 games and I believe will open up space for the strikers. we lacked a lot of width during the season and need to exploit the wide pitch at bc place. also Jarju needs to be played in a CM role. he may not have had the best start to his Whitecaps tenure but I believe he has a great first touch, good vision and passing ability and the composure and patience to succeed in that role. he is way better than Vagenas and Thorrington in that role. I'd maybe keep Thorrington in a backup role.

On defense we need the most help. I loved Leathers hustle but is lacking in the skill and needs to be upgraded. Demerit proved to be a good acquisition but was susceptible to the occasional bonehead play with his amateur clearances. Mitchell looks to be a decent pickup Boxall needs to be traded and we need another capable body in the middle.

[smartlikefox]

Salinas is fine to keep but as said above, he's best suited for a late game sub. He doesn't have the ball skill to play a whole game and his speed would be far more useful coming at weary defenders late in the game.

I liked what Harvey brought on the wing once they put Rochat back in his normal spot. He looks solid and with Rochat behind him, they were a solid force out there. Proven to be versatile so I have no issues keeping him.

Most important thing, besides Demerit's health, is finding a strong partner for him. Mitchell looked good late in the season with him, but whether it's him or someone else, Rochat is not the answer in that position.

[Sam Brown]

I doubt Long Tan will be cut, even with Rennie coming in. I suspect there will be strong support to keep him from the marketing team to keep the chinese market in Vancouver watching. While some have speculated that Chumiento could be on his way out, many point to his "moodiness" for inconsistencies in performances. With Rennie having such a focus on psychology and motivation (from his business background) I would expect Rennie to keep Chumiento around.

[Richard]

Whatever player decisions Rennie makes he will be subject to criticism.

[Danny Boy]

Whatever player decisions Rennie makes he will be subject to criticism.

Oh is that how it works? Ok, thanks.

;-P

[Richard]

My point is he will be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. I know that's stating the obvious and I understand that second guessing coaches is all part of being a fan but it's really rather pointless other than as a means of passing the time ;-)

[Danny Boy]

Of course it is... Thats the whole point of this forum really...

but this conversation gets is legs only as a result of the cluster**** of a season the Caps have had and we are enjoying the speculation of what this team will look like next year. So let us do the obvious and make asinine assumptions and projections