brownbear Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Hello all: As I mentioned, I have a very close relative who is plugged into the Canadian soccer scene and he just told me point-blank (in response to my query regarding the Whitecaps' proposed waterfront stadium) "it's not going to be built there." The issue, according to him, is mainly with the intransigence of the Port of Vancouver. My relative also hinted that there were rumours that Saudi (or other Middle Eastern) interests were looking at purchasing the port. I did some research online and it turns out that the Port of Vancouver's corporate organization was transformed as of 1JAN2008. From the http://www.vfpa.ca/: quote:On December 21, 2007, the federal government issued the "Certificate of Amalgamation" that combines the Fraser River Port Authority, the North Fraser Port Authority, and the Vancouver Port Authority. The effective date of amalgamation of the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority (VFPA) was January 1, 2008. I'm a little bit skeptical about the second claim (about the Saudis looking to buy) but a lot of the oil money being made in the Middle East is being used to purchase hard assets (how many US Treasury bills can a Saudi monarch have, anyway?) such as ports and other transportation systems worldwide. [some of you may be aware of the Dubai ports company's purchase of a series of US ports in the last year or so, which raised the ire of "islamofascist-fighting demagogues south the of 49th parallel.] Is there any precedent for foreign-owned ports in Canada? Thanks, bb UPDATE: A little bit more research shows that over 80% of US ports are foreign-owned. What about in Canada? quote:"Other than that," said Waters, "the rest of the terminals, which comprise about 80 percent of those terminals we're talking about, are operated by foreign entities, primarily shipping lines." Interviewed on the same program, Joe King, former chief of U.S. Customs' Terrorism Unit, noted that the government of Singapore owns most of a company that operates terminals in Los Angeles and elsewhere. http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/1/130835.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie Monster Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Not sure if there is such a thing as privately owned ports in Canada... they're certainly all regulated by the feds / Customs, that much I know. However, I can also tell you that the port space adjacent to the proposed stadium site is indeed government owned.... and by law, the Port Authority is prohibited</u> from selling its land - it can only purchase new land, or trade for other properties of comparable value "...if it is in the national interest to do so." This law is the reason why Kerfoot and the Port have been dickering over a land swap - the Port isn't allowed to sell to him even if they wanted to (which they don't). This essentially means the Saudis are S.O.L. if they want to buy the land next to Kerfoot's. The Port isn't allowed to sell, and the Saudis have no land to trade with. I think the more likely scenario is that the Saudis are sniffing out Kerfoot's property. There have long been rumours that parties have been interested in bringing a mega casino or hotel down there, especially with the new convention centre moving in next door. That said, a casino will never, never, never happen down there. The lefties, poverty pimps and NDPers would burn it to the ground along with city hall in order to protect the downtown eastside. The condo developers who backed the anti-stadium campaign also had their own plans for condos, retail space and a Fishermen's Wharf type of project for Kerfoot's land. Sadly, I think this is exactly what we're going to end up with. Sure, it will be a nice addition to the city, but it sucks for soccer fans. I think it's pretty clear that if the Caps are not going to stay at BC Place beyond their five year lease, the stadium building focus will shift to False Creek yet again. The two recently nominated mayoral candidates have both said this is the next best option they'd like to see materialize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 I caught the nooner with my work at Nat Bailey yesterday. Man, single A baseball is boring. And there was nobody there. But what about adding a Canada line stop at 33rd and building the Stadium there! Actually, you could probably walk easy enough from the King Ed station. Two of the stadia I've been to, the late Maine Road and White Hart Lane, would be very similar in terms of location. There's a certain charm having a stadium in a residential area. You would think that there would be community outrage against such a proposal, except that I think most of that neighborhood is now Chinese, and they probably couldn't give a crap as they are not a terrribly NIMBY people in my experience. The Cs could get a new park in Surrey or New West or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luis_Rancagua Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 If this stadium is NOT built, it will be a sad tragedy in Vancouver BC history... So let's tell the politicians (NDPers, Liberals and Conservatives) to get off their arse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bxl Boy Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 I hope it isn't true Else, it's a very, very bad news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Well, Kerfoot could continue to try to persuade the planners at City Hall to let him build on his site, as part of the problem -I think- is that the planning department felt blind-sided in this process. But at the end of the day, maybe we need to wait and see how this BC Place thing plays out. If they can pull off a Frankfurt, we'd easily have the biggest/nicest venue in MLS -assuming the $200 million is well spent. I'm still a little dubious whether the city can get away with that kind of cash drop so, as the Monster says, the False Creek location should be back on. However, it doesn't seem like the City is through dicking them around on that locale either, what with this St. Paul's gibberish. I'm telling you, Queen Elizabeth Park has serious potential. Think about City, think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie Monster Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone Well, Kerfoot could continue to try to persuade the planners at City Hall to let him build on his site... Absolutely. We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that throughout this whole mickey mouse process, city council has maintained possession of the proverbial magic wand and has *refused* to wave it. Kerfoot was forced into land swap negotiations with the Port because city council kowtowed to the planning department's position that the stadium didn't fit in with the city's decades-old planning policies. Council could have *refused* the staff recommendation (as councils do all the time), and shown some balls by ordering some updates to the policy to make the stadium compatible. Council chose to throw the baby out with the bathwater instead. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone ... part of the problem -I think- is that the planning department felt blind-sided in this process. On one hand, I don't think anyone could have ever expected a billionaire philanthropist to fall out of the sky and offer up a free stadium. On the other hand, given the fact that it was Larry Campbell who courted Kerfoot to build this thing to begin with in 2003, I think the planning department would be hard pressed to find much sympathy from the public about being blindsided with surprise. This stadium was the worst kept secret in Vancouver for months upon months before Kerfoot actually bought the waterfront parcel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone I'm telling you, Queen Elizabeth Park has serious potential. Think about City, think about it. I used to think that way too as used to live 2 blocks from the Nat. But now with 2 curling rinks and that other building behind the stadium, combined with the lack of parking on the edge of a residential area it doesn't make sense. You'll get the NIMBY's and the save our C's campaigners out in full force. They won't renovate the Nat to accomodate an MLS team, eventhough it could be the coolest stadium in all the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Just because I live nearby now and was running past there the other day, it dawned on me that I havent ever heard anyone mention the old Empire site at PNE as a possible location. Its not my first choice, but after enough downtown proposals get crossed off the list, is it not even a possibility? I mean, there is loads of parking nearby(and more could be made on-site), plenty of express bus service running along Hastings to get people from downtown, and it is more or less in the middle of what could be called to soccer hotbed of the city (or Western Canada, for that matter) in East Van. Plus easy commute in for suburban types and plenty of soccer support in Burnaby. Plus it has history and is situated in a somewhat green space, with a view, which adds to the experince. We could do worse, I'd imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Danny Boy I used to think that way too as used to live 2 blocks from the Nat. But now with 2 curling rinks and that other building behind the stadium, combined with the lack of parking on the edge of a residential area it doesn't make sense. You'll get the NIMBY's and the save our C's campaigners out in full force. They won't renovate the Nat to accomodate an MLS team, eventhough it could be the coolest stadium in all the league. But the two curling rinks presumably add to the available parking -especially given that the MLS season is predominantly in the summer. Also, I think -sorry to say- the Nat needs to be demolished. Looking at the lot yesterday, there must be room for a 25,000 seater -with a car park. Smaller stadia work well in residential neighborhoods all over England. Given the park is a major public space and that there's already a stadium in the location, I doubt the backlash would be that serious. Regarding save our Cs, there were a maximum 500 people there yesterday and likely less than 50 could name a single player. And I'm not suggesting we kill them, just move them to Surrey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Any word on what the new and improved BC Place will be? Open roof? Real grass? No track, stands closer to the field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/05/16/bc-stadium-roof.html Retractable roof, no track, probably Fieldturf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancouversoccerman Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Wow...Saudi oil barons buying up our ports and snuffing out the Whitecaps stadium...thought I'd read about that first in the Globe and Mail, but the scoop comes from the Vees forum instead! I'm not taking a shot at you, bb...it's just that every couple of months, there's always a new rumour that the stadium is dead, or it's going out to Surrey or the PNE, etc. I can say for certain that the waterfront site is still in play. When it will happen is another story. I last spoke with the Whitecaps about the stadium prior to the Voyageurs Cup match against Montreal. They told me that they are meeting more often with the Port now than before the controversy in April. The talks are slow, but progressing. The Whitecaps also reiterated their position that the waterfront site is the only site they're willing to build on. So, now that's settled, here's a quick primer on the sites that have been mentioned here, and why they've led to the waterfront: 1.The PNE (Former Empire Stadium Site). - This was first considered, but turned down by the City, as the future of Hastings Park was and still is in question. The City has spent millions investing in a plan to convert the fairgrounds into parkspace, and there is a very well-organized, well financed activist group that is willing to use the courts to halt any new development there. In their latest battle, they tried unsuccessfully to keep slot machines out of the local racetrack. The court cases took years. 2.The Nat Bailey site – The City and the new owners of the Canadians just invested millions into renovations. Nat Bailey Stadium is also being considered as a heritage site. It's not going anywhere soon. There's also (surprise, surprise) a large activist group in the area that successfully lobbied the city to limit the number of seats in Nat Bailey due to the lack of parking. They also prevented the AAA Canadians from expanding Nat Bailey to 10,000, virtually guaranteeing they'd leave town. This area was never even on the Caps' radar. 3.False Creek Flats & Main & Terminal: Both were considered before, and in both cases the City wouldn't sell. This may change with the November elections, but you'd have to wonder why the Caps would be motivated to shell out even more cash for land. 4.The Waterfront: City planners have no reason to claim they were blindsided by the stadium announcement, as the Caps were guided to the site by them. There is a letter on file at City Hall from one of the top planning officials, telling the Whitecaps they saw no immediate difficulties in putting the stadium on the Waterfront site, so the Caps went out and quickly bought. No problems arose until developers started backing poverty activists to fight it. ( For what it's worth, it was kind of funny seeing all of the same “rent-a-riot” faces at City Hall last week railing against a condo project at 58 W.Hastings, while Jon Stovell complained to City Planning about how negative these people were about the revitalization of Gastown.) 5.Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts and Bill Good had a great exchange about the stadium on his show last week (I think it was last Thursday). She couldn't believe the inertia in Vancouver, and said that Surrey, along with other municipalities, are willing to talk to the Caps if everything fell through. She also made it clear that Surrey has their own direction for development as a city, and she isn't going to let it become a dumping ground for all the projects Vancouver doesn't want. Bill Good followed up by making fun of the anti-stadium crowd that's worried about toxic armagaeddon. Cheers, Bill Currie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancouver Fan Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone maybe we need to wait and see how this BC Place thing plays out. If they can pull off a Frankfurt, we'd easily have the biggest/nicest venue in MLS -assuming the $200 million is well spent. It would be nice, but we'd still have those CFL lines to deal with I'd imagine.I don't think I could put up with that for too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Vancouver Fan It would be nice, but we'd still have those CFL lines to deal with I'd imagine.I don't think I could put up with that for too long. I heard something about grass pallets over top of the turf? It's a possibility anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 ^ Where did you hear that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue and White Army Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 My uneducated guess is that Waterfront site #1 is still the most likely site to happen. And isn't it a lot closer to the Waterfront transit hub than the current Port lands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie Monster Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard ^ Where did you hear that? I've mentioned that a few times on this board, but only as wishful thinking. No real news in this regard, sad to say. They did this in Seattle at Qwest for our Brazil friendly, and it looked great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanDouglas Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 Grass pallets are a no-go, it has been explained to me, as there is no place to store them. Land is too valuable in that part of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soro17 Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 quote:Regarding save our Cs, there were a maximum 500 people there yesterday and likely less than 50 could name a single player. And I'm not suggesting we kill them, just move them to Surrey! I was there for the nooner as well. I think announced attendance was 2,300, which seemed greatly inflated. I thought the C's starting pitcher was sharp and Jesse Barfield's kid looked good picking off the runner at first from right field. As for the rest of the bunch, how can you go wrong with guys named Dusty Napoleon and Dante Love? The days of Barry Zito, Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson seem so long ago. On the stadium front, having indirectly dealt with the Port of Vancouver on the sale of a grain elevator on Port of Vancouver land, I can state with certainty that they are shrewd, professional negotiators who will steadfastly protect their interests and their mandate. Unfortunately (for soccer fans at least), they cannot simply be bought off. For this reason, my gut feeling is that after the civic election, the False Creek Flats location will resurface as the politicians' location of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Blue and White Army My uneducated guess is that Waterfront site #1 is still the most likely site to happen. And isn't it a lot closer to the Waterfront transit hub than the current Port lands? Maybe a 3 minute walk as opposed to a 5 minute walk so closer, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by AlanDouglas Grass pallets are a no-go, it has been explained to me, as there is no place to store them. Land is too valuable in that part of town. I actually drafted a response along these lines myself but changed it to a query about the source of any such rumour. I think the fact the government plans to use the sale of land around BC Place to help offset the cost of renovations just lessens the already very slim chance if there ever was any, of a natural grass pallet system being installed. Space is needed to store pallets outdoors and keep the grass flourishing and there just isn't the space, even now before the big land selloff to avaricious developers begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary Boomer Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by brownbear Hello all: As I mentioned, I have a very close relative who is plugged into the Canadian soccer scene and he just told me point-blank (in response to my query regarding the Whitecaps' proposed waterfront stadium) "it's not going to be built there." The issue, according to him, is mainly with the intransigence of the Port of Vancouver. My relative also hinted that there were rumours that Saudi (or other Middle Eastern) interests were looking at purchasing the port. I did some research online and it turns out that the Port of Vancouver's corporate organization was transformed as of 1JAN2008. From the http://www.vfpa.ca/: I'm a little bit skeptical about the second claim (about the Saudis looking to buy) but a lot of the oil money being made in the Middle East is being used to purchase hard assets (how many US Treasury bills can a Saudi monarch have, anyway?) such as ports and other transportation systems worldwide. [some of you may be aware of the Dubai ports company's purchase of a series of US ports in the last year or so, which raised the ire of "islamofascist-fighting demagogues south the of 49th parallel.] Is there any precedent for foreign-owned ports in Canada? Thanks, bb UPDATE: A little bit more research shows that over 80% of US ports are foreign-owned. What about in Canada? http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/1/130835.shtml I have a close tie to the Port as well...he's on the planning arm of the Port Authority. The stadium is very much still in play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard I actually drafted a response along these lines myself but changed it to a query about the source of any such rumour. I think the fact the government plans to use the sale of land around BC Place to help offset the cost of renovations just lessens the already very slim chance if there ever was any, of a natural grass pallet system being installed. Space is needed to store pallets outdoors and keep the grass flourishing and there just isn't the space, even now before the big land selloff to avaricious developers begins. Never underestimate the ability of architects and engineers to "get creative" Mount them over the parking lot and use them for shade until you need to move them in? You basically need 10,000 square yards of space. If you lay it all out in the parking lot you will lose that space and as you've pointed out that is way too expensive. It would be nice but I doubt it. I hope the Caps get grass but knowing BC (grew up there) they will probably switch to turf and make us look at CFL lines [xx(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancouver Fan Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 I don't know too much about how grass pallet systems work but I would think that there would be a large cost involved to maintain them not to mention storage and transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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