A Protest Proposal: CSA board resignation

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Like most people here I am pretty sickened to think there are these guys at the CSA, part of Linford's executive and provincial presidents, who are smirking and laughing amongst themselves at having rid themselves of Linford. Really, the whole thought of it turns my stomach, I can't get over the idea that these guys are still around and they are going to stonewall in the face of media and fan and player and club protests and just hold out come hell or high water.

This solution is perhaps not realistic, but it is the position I feel in my gut is the way to go: call for their resignation, not recognize them as legitimate. It is the only way to force their hand and find out who is with us and who is against us. This cannot continue, and just protesting the CSA is too ambiguous, they are just hiding behind their perks and jackets and protocols and laughing at us.

So how about it, let's go for broke. A Voyageurs letter sent to each individual member of the board asking for either a clear opinion on the current state of the things, answering specific questions we have on their voting patterns and behaviour on the board. And letting them know that if they are not going to give it to us, we will be asking for their resignation. I think it is a simple solution, clear, direct, and it will be very effective. If more supporter groups want to subscribe to it they can, we can make it a wider call for accountability or resignation.

A short example:

The Voyageurs, the leading supporter group for Canada's national soccer program, are calling for greater public dialogue from the members of the board of the Canadian Soccer Association.

If this cannot be demonstrated, it is our opinion that your only responsible option is to resign from your position on the CSA board.

Canadian fans believe that the position that you hold requires a more open and accountable attitude regarding your role in creating and implementing CSA policies and actions and managing finances. Recent events have led us to the conclusion that members of the CSA board have not fulfilled this basic obligation to the Canadian soccer community, including elite and amateur players, professional, developmental and recreational clubs, the thousands of fans across this country, CSA sponsors, as well as Sport Canada, CSA affiliates, the Canadian Olympic Committee and provincial soccer associations.

We are calling for members of the Canadian Soccer Association board to clearly and publically state where they stand regarding longstanding and endemic problems in Canadian soccer. These problems are widespread and are known to all members of the Canadian soccer community.

If you are willing to reaffirm your committment to a greater level of public accountability, we will be pleased to direct a number of queries your way so as to facilitate a public dialogue through your responses.

However, if this is not acceptable to you, and as member of the CSA board you continue to ignore the public outcry for a more effective and open CSA, we will have no other choice than to ask for your immediate resignation from the CSA board and related posts.

Yours

The Voyageurs

[Saviola7]

Hehe. That's quite ballsy ... but at this point might as well.

[JB_Tito]

Good,we have to start somewhere.

I'm sure Jeffrey you can count on RPB,U Sector and NEE on this.

[VPjr]

Ballsy is good...I love it

[JamesW]

Sounds good to me.

[john tv]

Sounds good but it seems that I suggested that before or something similar. Anyway I really believe that these guys will ignore anything unless you use the media. That will give it a legitimate face and instant recognition and a name.

You have to understand that these guys who are running the various post in these organizations have been exposed to a constant stream of criticism and they know how to handle that, simply by ignoring it.

[CoachRich]

We can get the media no problem as they are lining up BUT we need good reasons why they should resign. These are not good reasons -

Linford resigning

Late financials

Years of poor performance

& etc

Good reasons -

details on the rumor posted in this forum that they lost $2M on U20

any constitutional item they are not fulfilling

financial issues not properly disclosed

Linford is doing a great job of talking about his dissatisfaction but until there are details of CSA issues that effect the members, it's hard for the media to jump on board & shoot the CSA.

We have to have some ammo for the media & they will shoot the gun for us. I've been asked by several of the reporters that I used for the WNT if there are some hard facts about the CSA but there are only rumors & dissatifaction we are shooting around. We need facts from a whistle blower & etc.

On Sports Canada, I've communicated to them several times via phone, Email over the months had letter from Bev Oda & they will not do anything until the CSA constitutionally, financially & etc does something adverse that effects the members. Having a lousy developement & NT program doesn't qualify.

IMO unless we find some ammo the best routes are going to be the youth clubs who say enough is enough & you can't have our fees anymore to the PSO as your President who sits on the board we have no confidience. Call it a no confidience vote. Youth clubs pay their fees later this month so things have to happen very fast.

I'm all for them resigning but speaking to a CSA suit you have to use the constitution & facts to get them to wake up as they know you've got them. That's why the WNT was & is a big headache for them as they know the Gender Equity/Equality issue is not going away. Look how fast the CSA settled on WNT game revenues back in 2003 when it was a GE issue.

We have numerous group accross the country fighting on numerous fronts against the CSA. Until those groups become 1 voice w/ a battle plan w/ facts they can provide to the media & the members the CSA suits will be insulated from righteousness as they have done for decades.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

The key question is why ask for their resignation.

The answer is because they refuse to be directly accountable to the Canadian soccer community.

Is this cause for resignation? Should someone be asked to leave his or her post for this reason?

It is much like what you might see in political circles, if a minister does not do their job or the area they oversee has some serious problems, you ask for their resignation. Special interest groups will do it, a regional concern will call for it, a ratepayers association or chamber of commerce or NGO. And of course the opposition, even against a majority government. When pushed to the limit there is the non-confidence vote, even when you know you can't win. You don't do it gratuitiously, I know that. But I think, after all these years, and having never gone this far, with them chewing over who will run things for the next three years with their little internal patch up job this fall, that now is the time.

So there is no objective, technical criteria to do so. It is a way of putting pressure on the person, individually, and those around him or her, so that they respond and react. It is a way to force their hand. And it has to be done on an individual basis.

We offer them a chance to answer our questions (which we can develop together here, reasonable but pertinent questions), and we might be surprised to see some actually do respond. There may not be a family compact at work that serves their interests corporatively, there may be differences that we can help expose. Or they may decide to not answer as a block, and either way I think we would be perfectly justified in calling for their resignation.

The entire process has to be out in the media from the start. We send letters to the members of the board, and let the entire soccer community know we have done so. We can even ask others to subscribe to the letter, to sign with us, though it is not important at first. I am sure many will come on later. And the press will be interested, as we will be asking questions that maybe they have wanted to ask or at least would be curious to see answered.

This is a tactical move, I admit. But it also is a way of saying: if you don't want to respond to us, to be accountable personally and in dialogue with us, the Canadian soccer community, we think you should think about stepping down. So what is it?

[JB_Tito]

quote:Originally posted by CoachRich

We can get the media no problem as they are lining up BUT we need good reasons why they should resign. These are not good reasons -

Linford resigning

Late financials

Years of poor performance

& etc

Good reasons -

details on the rumor posted in this forum that they lost $2M on U20

any constitutional item they are not fulfilling

financial issues not properly disclosed

Linford is doing a great job of talking about his dissatisfaction but until there are details of CSA issues that effect the members, it's hard for the media to jump on board & shoot the CSA.

We have to have some ammo for the media & they will shoot the gun for us. I've been asked by several of the reporters that I used for the WNT if there are some hard facts about the CSA but there are only rumors & dissatifaction we are shooting around. We need facts from a whistle blower & etc.

On Sports Canada, I've communicated to them several times via phone, Email over the months had letter from Bev Oda & they will not do anything until the CSA constitutionally, financially & etc does something adverse that effects the members. Having a lousy developement & NT program doesn't qualify.

IMO unless we find some ammo the best routes are going to be the youth clubs who say enough is enough & you can't have our fees anymore to the PSO as your President who sits on the board we have no confidience. Call it a no confidience vote. Youth clubs pay their fees later this month so things have to happen very fast.

I'm all for them resigning but speaking to a CSA suit you have to use the constitution & facts to get them to wake up as they know you've got them. That's why the WNT was & is a big headache for them as they know the Gender Equity/Equality issue is not going away. Look how fast the CSA settled on WNT game revenues back in 2003 when it was a GE issue.

We have numerous group accross the country fighting on numerous fronts against the CSA. Until those groups become 1 voice w/ a battle plan w/ facts they can provide to the media & the members the CSA suits will be insulated from righteousness as they have done for decades.

How they lost a money with record ticket sales?

WTF

[ag futbol]

If we lost money on the U20 they should all immediately be replaced (even more so than already). The tournament was more of a success than we ever could have hoped for. If it had done poorly the CSA would have gone bankrupt!!!

[nolando]

Great one, Jeffrey!

[JamesW]

When is this being sent out? I see no reason why it should not be sent out now.

[squid2]

Linford's interim replacement will be "elected" October 21 at a SGM.

Anyone know which hotel will host?

Maybe there's an opportunity for supporters to make an appearance, and an unscheduled presentation....

It would be a spectaclar visual to see supporters walking around the host hotel in a black tee shirt with an anti CSA slogan.

And don't be surprised if the details of Nykamp's departure from the CSA are confirmed and announced prior to this meeting. Sources say Nykamp wants out which isn't disappointing news to a few CSA fartcatchers.

[Richard]

I suggest that since the CSA board is not directly elected they do not feel they are directly accountable to the grassroots but rather through the provincial associations and down the chain and strictly speaking they may be right, but that's in large part where the problem lies.

If the CSA was professionally run I doubt too many of us whould really have a beef with the way the organisation is structured. But it isn't and has not been for a long time.

[JB_Tito]

quote:Originally posted by squid2

Linford's interim replacement will be "elected" October 21 at a SGM.

Anyone know which hotel will host?

Maybe there's an opportunity for supporters to make an appearance, and an unscheduled presentation....

It would be a spectaclar visual to see supporters walking around the host hotel in a black tee shirt with an anti CSA slogan.

And don't be surprised if the details of Nykamp's departure from the CSA are confirmed and announced prior to this meeting. Sources say Nykamp wants out which isn't disappointing news to a few CSA fartcatchers.

I think this should be our next priority after the Black Wednesday.

[john tv]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

The key question is why ask for their resignation.

The answer is because they refuse to be directly accountable to the Canadian soccer community.

Is this cause for resignation? Should someone be asked to leave his or her post for this reason?

It is much like what you might see in political circles, if a minister does not do their job or the area they oversee has some serious problems, you ask for their resignation. Special interest groups will do it, a regional concern will call for it, a ratepayers association or chamber of commerce or NGO. And of course the opposition, even against a majority government. When pushed to the limit there is the non-confidence vote, even when you know you can't win. You don't do it gratuitiously, I know that. But I think, after all these years, and having never gone this far, with them chewing over who will run things for the next three years with their little internal patch up job this fall, that now is the time.

So there is no objective, technical criteria to do so. It is a way of putting pressure on the person, individually, and those around him or her, so that they respond and react. It is a way to force their hand. And it has to be done on an individual basis.

We offer them a chance to answer our questions (which we can develop together here, reasonable but pertinent questions), and we might be surprised to see some actually do respond. There may not be a family compact at work that serves their interests corporatively, there may be differences that we can help expose. Or they may decide to not answer as a block, and either way I think we would be perfectly justified in calling for their resignation.

The entire process has to be out in the media from the start. We send letters to the members of the board, and let the entire soccer community know we have done so. We can even ask others to subscribe to the letter, to sign with us, though it is not important at first. I am sure many will come on later. And the press will be interested, as we will be asking questions that maybe they have wanted to ask or at least would be curious to see answered.

This is a tactical move, I admit. But it also is a way of saying: if you don't want to respond to us, to be accountable personally and in dialogue with us, the Canadian soccer community, we think you should think about stepping down. So what is it?

Jeffrey these are hard nosed sons of bitches who really don't want to listen or care. They will not pay any attention to volunteers or anybody. They have been trained that way for many years. That is the system.We have no vote and no power and we are probably the laughing stock of all provincial Associations. They don;t care. How do we shake them up this will be very difficult because everything is in place not to be able to shake them up /That buddy system is immense and oh so powerful. I suppose that if we manage to get votes in all provinces as a fan club this would be great and that is what we have to work on. Does their constitution allow for these type of organizations and what mandate will they carry. I know for a fact that if we make those board Canada will never be the same. We as fans have enormous power and they will know that. Our power is that fans come to the game and pay that magic prize that gets reported in the media as well as by those bean counters,money talks and b.s.walks.

So what is the answer,well we must apply for a membership in all provincial associations and have a clear vote. Our input will be of all areas that involve the promotion of soccer, the club system as well as areas that would make sure that our members feel that we are representing Canadian soccer without having to worry about the districts or any other buddy buddy system.

Will we ever make it this far,I doubt it. We are so far removed from being a legitimate organization it is pathetic.

I had some meetings with Speedmonk and Grizzly about that same thing and it became very clear that this is very difficult to attain, but it is the answer.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

Will we ever make it this far,I doubt it. We are so far removed from being a legitimate organization it is pathetic.

I had some meetings with Speedmonk and Grizzly about that same thing and it became very clear that this is very difficult to attain, but it is the answer.

I think it is far too premature for a supporter's group to hope for a say in the way the CSA is restructured if and when it happens. Voyageurs would be the only logical choice if somehow fans were allowed to truly participate but this group is simply too loosely knit to be an effective voice for Canadian fans, at least the way it's presently structured. There is no leadership, although I believe that there are some who gather here who truly do have the knowledge, experience and contacts necessary to lead the group so long as the rest of us would agree to follow, even when we don't agree with everything that is being proposed. Only if we have leadership will we be able to legitimately seek a place at the table, literally and figuratively.

Most, if not all, of us who congregate here share at least one common belief, namely that elite soccer in Canada is not as successful as it it should be, despite the fact that soccer is a hugely successful recreational sport. Unfortunately, it's hard to gather all the differing visions and opinions surrounding this basic belief and turn it into a unified vision for how things should change. Heck, we couldn't get agree to a protest letter this week even though pretty much everyone on this forum believed that the Voyageurs needed to say something (sorry for bringing it up...we don't need to reviste that issue now).

However, despite the fact that it's hard for this group to speak as one on issues of importance, I believe we should still continue to try. For instance, I really like the basic concepts and tone of the letter Jeffrey posted above because it would be a good follow up to the "individual" letters that were emailed to media earlier this week. We have every right to demand that the entire CSA board resign. While CSA board members are not officials elected by members of the public, the fans are nonetheless one of the many stakeholders in Canadian soccer, whether the CSA and Provincial Associations agree or not.

I personally feel very strongly that our group must find a way to unite to call for change in Canadian soccer at this specific point in time because I personally believe that soccer is no more than a few years away from making a tremendous mainstream breakthrough in Canada, the kind of breakthrough that the long time supporters of Canadian soccer (the guys who are the backbone of Voyageurs) could only have dreamed about when they first started to gather here to chat and exchange views. However, I fear that the game can't make the breakthrough that its poised to make as long as we continue to carry around the dead weight that is the CSA.

To give you an example of what I mean, I will rundown the reasons why I think Hockey is so successful in Canada and then compare it to Soccer.

Most here will agree that it's pretty darn easy to be a Team Canada hockey fan, even if you are only a casual fan of the game:

- Canada is home to many of the best players in the world.

- There is infrastructure in place that keeps producing new, young stars to replace the stars on the way out.

- The teams that Hockey Canada puts together to represent the country are usually pretty good and win alot of the tournaments.

- Hockey Canada takes the lead in developing a direction for the game in this country (on their website they say their mission is to “Lead, develop and promote positive hockey experiences").

- Hockey Canada is clearly at the top of the hockey pyramid at the amateur/semi pro level and have influence with the pro leagues. They have an organizational structure that would make many corporations envious (see link: http://www.hockeycanada.ca/6/8/4/3/index1.shtml) More often that not, if Hockey Canada issues an edict, its implimented all the way down to the local level.

- Hockey Canada recognizes that it has an important role in working with the provincial associations, the various junior leagues, the hundreds of youth clubs and the thousands of coaches to develop elite level players with the requisite skills needed to feed the pro leagues.

- You rarely hear of any stupid scandals or controversies that take away from the game and the players, which is why fans watch sports in the first place (people don't want to hear about the "suits" who administed the sport...they want to talk about the game and the players).

Now, put the CSA next to Hockey Canada. Everything that Hockey Canada does right, the CSA pretty much fails at. As a result, the sport struggles.

- Our National Teams generally do poorly.

- Canada produces very few international caliber elite players, especially when one considers the huge number of recreational players that are registered in Canada, and those few Canadian professionals tend to play outside the biggest leagues in the world so their exploits are somewhat invisible.

- We endure long stretches without introducing enough really good new talent onto the scene to replace the guys who carried the mantle previously.

- When the CSA gets its name in the paper, its because of failures to govern itself properly, like what happened this week or when Yallop admits he left the MNT because the resources were insufficient.

No wonder that the media often looks at soccer in this country and dismisses it as unprofessional and thus not worthy of serious attention. Compared to hockey, they are right. Casual sports fans know little about soccer and because there is so little good news to report, they believe what the media tells them about soccer and they dismiss it as well. The strong fans stay loyal but do tend to get discouraged. All in all, it's a formula for disappointment.

Canada's mainstream sport media will start to pay serious attention to Canadian soccer when, and only when, we start winning something and, more specifically, when we start qualifying for World Cups with regularity. Who of us believes this is even remotely possible to expect right now? Now, if we are content with being #53 in the world for perpetuity, then there is no need to get upset. But if we want better and believe Canadian players can be as successful as those in other "non-traditional" footballing countries (i.e. Austalia, USA, Japan, Korea, etc...), something must be done now.

The 3 areas of improvement that I feel would yield the most positive long terms results for Canadian Soccer are:

- major reforming of the way the CSA is structured and managed, with an emphasis on "professionalizing" the organization.

- having Elite (pro) Player representation on the board of directors

- developing a realistic plan for a national semi-pro U21 soccer league,preferably structured like the CHL, whereby 3 or 4 regional leagues are affiliated under 1 large umbrella, with the league champions playing for a national title annually. Such a league would allow us to stop talking about developing elite talent at home and actually start doing it. This type of league is the most feasible option that I could envision because the basic foundations exist. These leagues could ultimately serve as a Canadian feeder system to the pros (MLS, USL and other foreign leagues) just like the NCAA is the feeder system for the US.

Sorry for making this so long winded but I wanted to get this all out of my system

[CoachRich]

VPjr thank you for your time & like Jeffery well stated w/ some great comparison & points :-)

In looking further as Hockey Canada this are other areas that are good models -

Funding - http://www.hockeycanada.ca/6/8/2/7/index1.shtml

One of the key things to review is their cost of General Operations at 15.7% & High Performance at 56.7%

They do this on 545,363 members

Annual Report - http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.cfm/ci_id/24756/la_id/1/document/1/re_id/0

Professional looking w/ a Surplus of 8.5%

Not surprising they have a foundation

[An Observer]

I certainly would support the formation of a voyageurs board which is fully accountable to the supporters through some sort of periodic elections. This body could then take decisions on behalf of the supporters including issuing letters of protest but also marketing the national team by linking with local associations, possibly even organising sections for national team games and excursions to away matches. The key, like with what we require of the csa, the body needs to transparent and accountable. That way people can run for positions on clearly set out agendas and be replaced by the fans if they don't deliver.

On jeffrey's letter, I think its a good start but its too vague for any of them to effectively respond. I am a paid lobbyist for a living. If you send a letter, you need to anticipate their respons before sending it. I fear their response will be simply to ignore it or send back a bland reply stating they have the best interests of soccer at heart and are working diligently at a plan for csa restructuring, and they will point to all their current programs and successes. No one has ever resigned because someone wrote them a letter asking them to do so. If your goal is resignation, than you likely need to show serious fraud or inpropriety which is unlikely. If your goal is a new structure for soccer in canada, then I think you push for a crawford report in canada and you use this letter to set out the terms of what you think that commission should include: independence, competence, tranparency, etc. You then try to get them to comply but threatening their purse strings. That means the government. They will likely need to be pushed but you lobby them on the basis that the csa is pissing away tax dollers. If you get a few mps who care about soccer on board, they may make enoguh noise in ottawa with help of the journalists to get the csa worried. If you hand them a ready fix such as an indpendent commission, it will give the mps a deliverable as well as sports canada and an out to make the nuisance of soccer supporters go away. Remember that mps love these causes. It can get them badly needed press and make them look good. Sports canada does not want the bad press about not caring what they are doing with tax dollars. The csa will **** its pants about losing revenue or funding.

Anyway, these are my thoughts for what they are worth.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

I certainly would support the formation of a voyageurs board which is fully accountable to the supporters through some sort of periodic elections. This body could then take decisions on behalf of the supporters including issuing letters of protest but also marketing the national team by linking with local associations, possibly even organising sections for national team games and excursions to away matches. The key, like with what we require of the csa, the body needs to transparent and accountable. That way people can run for positions on clearly set out agendas and be replaced by the fans if they don't deliver.

On jeffrey's letter, I think its a good start but its too vague for any of them to effectively respond. I am a paid lobbyist for a living. If you send a letter, you need to anticipate their respons before sending it. I fear their response will be simply to ignore it or send back a bland reply stating they have the best interests of soccer at heart and are working diligently at a plan for csa restructuring, and they will point to all their current programs and successes. No one has ever resigned because someone wrote them a letter asking them to do so. If your goal is resignation, than you likely need to show serious fraud or inpropriety which is unlikely. If your goal is a new structure for soccer in canada, then I think you push for a crawford report in canada and you use this letter to set out the terms of what you think that commission should include: independence, competence, tranparency, etc. You then try to get them to comply but threatening their purse strings. That means the government. They will likely need to be pushed but you lobby them on the basis that the csa is pissing away tax dollers. If you get a few mps who care about soccer on board, they may make enoguh noise in ottawa with help of the journalists to get the csa worried. If you hand them a ready fix such as an indpendent commission, it will give the mps a deliverable as well as sports canada and an out to make the nuisance of soccer supporters go away. Remember that mps love these causes. It can get them badly needed press and make them look good. Sports canada does not want the bad press about not caring what they are doing with tax dollars. The csa will **** its pants about losing revenue or funding.

Anyway, these are my thoughts for what they are worth.

Observer, I have mused over your main doubt about the letter I drafted, your point about them being able to ignore it is well taken. But you know perfectly well that politicians and other people in power ignore letters too, and phone calls, emails, even being asked something face to face. You also know that a lobby is different than a pressure ploy or media action, which this is.

The letter is conceived as a bit of a catch-22: if you don't want to respond or don't answer, we think you should resign. If you say yes and are willing to dialogue, we'll give you the benefit of the doubt. At least you are willing to talk to the fans. Then we send our questions, and they get to answer. We could even anticipate some of the questions, but it is best not to show all the cards in the first hand. The questions are obvious anyways, they should know what to expect.

I think that is fair, at least from our end. We are not lobbying here, then, in fact, we are hitting much harder and more directly at their lack of accountability. If they insist in it, not answering our letter or refusing to respond to questions (we are not going to torture them after all, they are just words), we call for them to resign.

So the point is not to get them to resign, in fact I really don't care if they do or don't. The point is that the press reflects our efforts with a "Canadian Fans call for Soccer Board Resignation". From then on the board is perceived by anyone agreeing with us as lame duck or a hold out or under fire. And that is accomplishing a lot.

I am not suggesting calling for a policy change right now because that is a process that would have to take a few years. Asking for a review is fine, perhaps we should, but if the same people are in place and the same attitudes we'll get something that won't rock their boat, made to measure conclusions. The Crawford review emerged independently of the Australian FA, so repeating a similar model means lobbying goverment and Sport Canada, not the CSA board members. And that is an entirely different initiative.

[An Observer]

Jeffrey, for one, we as the supporters do not have in place a structure to adequately voice the concerns of the fans. This leads to a bizarre result whereby you are talking openly on this forum about tactics, holding things in reserve, etc.which means the other side already completely knows your strategy. You cannot lobby, put pressure, etc. whatever you want to call it when we start out with one habd tied behind your back.

An you can't argue for accountability when you don't have it yourself. Who are you? What is your accountability. A dialogue with fans? Which ones?

If I was the csa, I would simply reply that of course we are publicly accountable so there is no need to reaffirm anything. They have a democratic process with reps from the various constituents. They may offer to respond to some questions but most of it will likely be answered by vague open ended process driven answers.

More bizarrely, the request you make is non-sensical. You seriously believe that any credible organisation would submit to opening a dialogue with self appointed group of unelected fans about the future of canadian soccer or anything else. They would have to be nuts to agreed to such a request. No FA in the world would agree to such a thing.

If they have a good pr firm on board, they would rip such a request to shreads in the media and make us look as amateurish as we are.

If you want to send a message, the black shirt wednesday will do that publicly and well. If you want something more, I think the first step is to get our own house in order before we start throwing stones at a body that a prrsent has more accountabilty than we do.

[An Observer]

Jeffrey, for one, we as the supporters do not have in place a structure to adequately voice the concerns of the fans. This leads to a bizarre result whereby you are talking openly on this forum about tactics, holding things in reserve, etc.which means the other side already completely knows your strategy. You cannot lobby, put pressure, etc. whatever you want to call it when we start out with one habd tied behind your back.

An you can't argue for accountability when you don't have it yourself. Who are you? What is your accountability. A dialogue with fans? Which ones?

If I was the csa, I would simply reply that of course we are publicly accountable so there is no need to reaffirm anything. They have a democratic process with reps from the various constituents. They may offer to respond to some questions but most of it will likely be answered by vague open ended process driven answers.

More bizarrely, the request you make is non-sensical. You seriously believe that any credible organisation would submit to opening a dialogue with self appointed group of unelected fans about the future of canadian soccer or anything else. They would have to be nuts to agreed to such a request. No FA in the world would agree to such a thing.

If they have a good pr firm on board, they would rip such a request to shreads in the media and make us look as amateurish as we are.

If you want to send a message, the black shirt wednesday will do that publicly and well. If you want something more, I think the first step is to get our own house in order before we start throwing stones at a body that a prrsent has more accountabilty than we do.

[Mobiiiiiiiilio]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

Sounds good but it seems that I suggested that before or something similar. Anyway I really believe that these guys will ignore anything unless you use the media. That will give it a legitimate face and instant recognition and a name.

You have to understand that these guys who are running the various post in these organizations have been exposed to a constant stream of criticism and they know how to handle that, simply by ignoring it.

John...you must suffer from bi-polar disorder. In other threads you're saying not to use the media..ie.. the black t-shirt protest that will get noticed by the media, they will bring up the issues in the paper and television and the CSA will more than likely have to address...we come up with another idea, you go the opposite, someone else comes up with the another form of protest and you say the opposite?????

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

Jeffrey, for one, we as the supporters do not have in place a structure to adequately voice the concerns of the fans. This leads to a bizarre result whereby you are talking openly on this forum about tactics, holding things in reserve, etc.which means the other side already completely knows your strategy. You cannot lobby, put pressure, etc. whatever you want to call it when we start out with one habd tied behind your back.

An you can't argue for accountability when you don't have it yourself. Who are you? What is your accountability. A dialogue with fans? Which ones?

If I was the csa, I would simply reply that of course we are publicly accountable so there is no need to reaffirm anything. They have a democratic process with reps from the various constituents. They may offer to respond to some questions but most of it will likely be answered by vague open ended process driven answers.

More bizarrely, the request you make is non-sensical. You seriously believe that any credible organisation would submit to opening a dialogue with self appointed group of unelected fans about the future of canadian soccer or anything else. They would have to be nuts to agreed to such a request. No FA in the world would agree to such a thing.

If they have a good pr firm on board, they would rip such a request to shreads in the media and make us look as amateurish as we are.

If you want to send a message, the black shirt wednesday will do that publicly and well. If you want something more, I think the first step is to get our own house in order before we start throwing stones at a body that a prrsent has more accountabilty than we do.

Well sorry but I think I can respond to all your opinions.

First, that the opponent knows the tactic is not important, you are mistaken. People with experience always know the other's tactics, like people in union-company negotiations. But you go through the steps, it is a bit theatrical all told. A familiar staging in a familiar sequence.

All it means is that the Voyageurs, and maybe others subscribing to the move, will call for their resignation if they are unwilling to answer our questions in a friendly way. Pressure groups do this all the time, you know this I am sure. Noone wants to be publically asked to resign, noone wants bad press, noone wants to have to back paddle. Even if they know all three are coming and can prepare for them.

I can tell you, anyways, that if they have read this thread and do know what it proposes, they would much prefer folks to listen to you than listen to me. They do not want to be put on the spot, under the gun, and not by anyone. And they don't want to see it in the press, especially on an individual basis. It would likely create certain divisions, all you need is one board member to agree and there you have it, a board member friendily agrees to answer fan questions and there's the breach.

Yes, you are right, they dont 't have to answer, they can say they are accountable in other ways, legal ways. So what? A politician says he is accountable to parliament, to his party, and to his voters every four or five years. What do you say back? You say no, you are accountable to us to, as what you do affects us, even if your riding is in Cape Breton and we are in Prince Rupert. And you are accountable in principle to those who your policy affects. The CSA board IS accountable to those who their policy affects. Legally? Perhaps not, but you might be surprised. But the principle is undeniable, you cannot take such an excessively legalistic view on things, it is not practical at all, it does not describe reality.

As for accountability, I think you are mistaken again. They have a mandate, they manage a budget, they sit on committees, they make decisions, they are accountable. Some are chosen by the president, I think (not sure exactly), others come through the provinces. You saying we cannot vote for them, well I find that ridiculous, that is not my understanding of all positions of responsibility. They are elected through constituencies, but the idea that they are only responsible directly to those who can vote for them is not right, those voting act in proxy for everyone else. This is obvious, at least it is plain as day for me. They are totally accountable to us, as to the press, as to anyone who may be interested in their actions. Another thing is if they have a binding legal obligation to express that, but again, legalese over reality Observer.

And this stuff about we not being accountable. What a nice way to discredit us, I mean the press is quoting us and citing us right left and centre lately, and you are essentially calling us hypocrits? Not very nice of you. We are a loosely structured non-official supporters group, and we work by consensus and impulse and caprice and passion. We are not elected, we do not have legal responsibilities apart from those incurred from running a website, we are not funded publically, we have been functional for a decade or more (I have been here for 7 years now), we get press passes (that is how I went to Spain-Canada, in the press box representing us), and you are saying we are not accountable? Reality check.

But what gets me is that you think if they have a good PR man they would rip us apart and make us look like fools. What a normative way of thinking you have, money is power and power is right, something like that. Against that view, I think that any group of individuals with a concern have the freedom and even the responsibility to express it, and that includes going to the press, applying pressure on public officials and other representing them, and asking for their resignation if necessary. Take a walk around your neighbourhood and get a look at how pressure groups work, formal or informal.

I mean, are you seriously suggesting that the CSA board would come out insulting the fans of Canadian soccer and that the media would buy it? Just the opposite, the media would kill them if they even gave a hint of that. Do you know what happens when a board member of a football club or FA insults or shows despise towards the fans? They are tarred and feathered, and the press loves it. That would be even more reason to be asking for them to resign, and it would totally discredit them before the constituencies that put them in place.

PS. I don't know why you are saying all this, perhaps out of spite, because you like that black shirt thing and a few of us are adamant it is mediocre. Anyways, I don't think it is fair for you to cite your lobbying experience when arguing this case, as I dont think your opinions give credit to the profession.

[L.T.]

If your retorts are going to be petty, personal attacks, at least warn people up front so we don't have to read 10 paragraphs of drivel hoping to find something with a purpose other than satisfying the author's ego.

Thanks...