Canada on the International Stage

[ANC2]

I have been following Canada Soccer for over 25 years and I do have some concerns with the present squad.

First some credit, they are playing some good possession soccer, with attacking purpose and with time it may translate into goals.

Now I really do not see the talent others see to challenge for the WC. And what I do see will need almost 3 years to mature and fight for the 3-4 1/2 spot. Canada's best player is in his 30's, other than he their is no one playing at the highest level. Stali is past his due date and DeGuz seldom plays well for Canada. Hutch has potential but he is not a creative player and Canada needs a playmaker. Who will score goals? This is the biggest question of all. Friend! Not likely. Hume! Not likely. That leaves DeRosario and he is very inconsistent though I must admit I like him.

Canada will struggle with the likes of Jamaica simply because Jamaica has more players playing at the highest level. They are more athletic and at home have proven a force. Trinidad similar though less consistent but the last meetings between T&T came out on top big time. These two Nations are ahead of Canada right now, not to Mention, USA, Mexico and CR. Not long ago Canada was getting 6 from Mexico and nothing has changed.

People who crying for a big name coach well here is some news. You will not get one. Most big name coaches put their names in where they have a good chance of success. Not to mention Canada cannot afford the going rate. The cheapest will be well over $500,000.00 a year +. Look at Bora in Jamaica for 1 million. Wim in T&T for 750,000.

Chances are Canada will end up with someone who does not care for the country and will take the money and run.

[denis]

Thanks for the input sunshine.[8D]

quote:Originally posted by ANC2

I have been following Canada Soccer for over 25 years and I do have some concerns with the present squad.

First some credit, they are playing some good possession soccer, with attacking purpose and with time it may translate into goals.

Now I really do not see the talent others see to challenge for the WC. And what I do see will need almost 3 years to mature and fight for the 3-4 1/2 spot. Canada's best player is in his 30's, other than he their is no one playing at the highest level. Stali is past his due date and DeGuz seldom plays well for Canada. Hutch has potential but he is not a creative player and Canada needs a playmaker. Who will score goals? This is the biggest question of all. Friend! Not likely. Hume! Not likely. That leaves DeRosario and he is very inconsistent though I must admit I like him.

Canada will struggle with the likes of Jamaica simply because Jamaica has more players playing at the highest level. They are more athletic and at home have proven a force. Trinidad similar though less consistent but the last meetings between T&T came out on top big time. These two Nations are ahead of Canada right now, not to Mention, USA, Mexico and CR. Not long ago Canada was getting 6 from Mexico and nothing has changed.

People who crying for a big name coach well here is some news. You will not get one. Most big name coaches put their names in where they have a good chance of success. Not to mention Canada cannot afford the going rate. The cheapest will be well over $500,000.00 a year +. Look at Bora in Jamaica for 1 million. Wim in T&T for 750,000.

Chances are Canada will end up with someone who does not care for the country and will take the money and run.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by denis

Thanks for the input sunshine.[8D]

There is no escaping the fact that we have trouble scoring goals. Even in games where we seem to control possession, we seldom score more than one goal unless we a playing a true minnow. We have some players playing at a high calibre of competition but a lot of pieces need to fall in place for a WC qualification to happen and judging from what we have seen in the past in Concacaf, it can happen for Canada. But it wont be achieved IMO primarily on talent but rather the intangible factors ( eg.: preparation, fitness, coaching, no bad calls from refs, right matchups/groups, no injuries, player availability, motivation, team chemistry, etc)

[Guest speedmonk42]

I agree with FK. I think we do have a shot at WC but it will be with the help of intangible factors. This is not to acknowledge the tremendous progress we are seeing. Lord knows the last thing we need is more negative posts.

However, ANC2's post is negative, yet a very rational look at the situation.

I genuinely think that this team is capable of much more.

From ANCs post, I don't think it is Jamaica and T&T we have to worry about, it is the future of Guatemala. With a population of 15 million if soccer snow balls there they will be a force in our federation.

[Ivan]

I disagree with most of ANC2's post. I do not think Jamaica & T&T are ahead of us, neither do they have more players playing at a higher level. I do not think Canada's best player is in his 30s (he is 23). I will need LMS's Gibberish Dictionary to decipher some of that third paragraph.

I do agree that we are in tough scoring goals, but do not think that Friend and Hume should be written off. I also agree that USA, Mex & CR are ahead of us, and agree with Speedmonk that Guatamala could be a threat as long as they train together year round and we fly in our players at the last minute, as with the Vancouver debacle. As Freekick said, our players need to be properly prepared.

As far as a coach is concerned, we do not know what the budget will be so why don't we wait to see who they hire before we start jumping all over the CSA. After all, Canada is not such a bad place to live, is it?

[BrennanFan]

Nothing wrong with ANC2's post. Its fair. I mean, Canadian Soccer is an enigma. Players like Deguzman, Hutchinson, Mckenna, Hirschfeld, Radzinski and even deRosario would make a Concacaf all star team easily,and we have more coming through the pipeline- Yet we cannot beat beatable teams. We have the players and the skills, this is obvious, we just dont have anything else. Time together, a halfway decent coach, money, etc etc.

all we can do is keep doing what were doing. we're not going to get an amazing coach, were just not. we wont get anyone significantly better than dale or hart so we might as well have a canadian who will stay the general course. in any event, no coach is going to resolve our main problems of lack of funding for friendlies, or change the time zones/jet lag, little prep for wcq games issues.

but our current string of friendlys has been almost decent, and a couple more should have us in ok shape before the Gold Cup. The Gold Cup will be our Acid Test. If everyone is healthy and shows up, and we've had a couple games already with our permanent manager, I think we might have another Gold Cup Title on the horizon.

[loyola]

Hirschfeld ahead of Casey Keller, Brad Friedel, Oswaldo Sanchez, Marcus Henhmann, Tim Howard, Shaka Hislop??? You must be kidding. I think the players you've named are solid by the standard of CONCACAF but for the exception of Radz, none would be on an all-star team right now. Hutch, DeRo and Mckenna would be close tough.

As for the rest, I totally agree that preparation and bad decision (such as flying players 10 hours 4 days prior to a WCQ) have made our the participation to a WC pretty difficult. I also like the GC as a test for us to give us an idea of what kind of team we'll have in 2008.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

all we can do is keep doing what were doing. we're not going to get an amazing coach, were just not. we wont get anyone significantly better than dale or hart so we might as well have a canadian who will stay the general course.

From what I have seen Dale Mitchell, even though he wouldn't be my first choice, is significantly better than Hart. I think we can probably get someone significantly better than Mitchell too even at our budget level if the CSA chooses wisely. Hart was good at selecting the team (other than calling too many players who were unlikely to come) and seemed to have good relations with the players but otherwise was completely lacking in professional level coaching skills.

[BrennanFan]

although you may be right, unless weve seen a training session hart has run we cant say he is completely lacking in skills. he must know something? what have you seen of dale to make you think hes any better? the success of U20 2003 sure wasnt his doing, that was all atiba and hume and simpson, Rowdy Roddy Piper could have coached the team to similar success.

[ANC2]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

From what I have seen Dale Mitchell, even though he wouldn't be my first choice, is significantly better than Hart. I think we can probably get someone significantly better than Mitchell too even at our budget level if the CSA chooses wisely. Hart was good at selecting the team (other than calling too many players who were unlikely to come) and seemed to have good relations with the players but otherwise was completely lacking in professional level coaching skills.

If he completly lacks in skills then why do the players show support.

They were quick to dump Holger

The players are in pro clubs and recognize when a coach knows what is he doing. So they wold not support poor quality. I would bet Canadas Brass consults some of the top players before making a coach selection

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by ANC2

If he completly lacks in skills then why do the players show support.

They were quick to dump Holger

The players are in pro clubs and recognize when a coach knows what is he doing. So they wold not support poor quality. I would bet Canadas Brass consults some of the top players before making a coach selection

Hart has only coached 3 games and is an interim coach so why wouldn't the players play for him? If there is going to be conflict with players or a lack of confidence in a coach this is not going to show up in the first 3 games with someone who they know is an interim coach. I have yet to hear the chorus of players demanding that Hart be hired full time. In fact, I have not heard one player say that. Additionally just because players like playing for a coach (which may or may not be the case with Hart) doesn't mean that he is a good coach.

The players were not quick to dump Holger at all, he coached the national team for 5 years which is pretty long to be the national team coach of any country. He is certainly not the first national team coach to have player conflicts after several years. Holger's first years were spent more trying to get back the players who Lenarduzzi had pissed off. It took several years until he developed his own player difficulties, much longer than it took for Yallop who by his fifth game already had several player problems. Incidentally, Osieck was also the only coach who has had any success whatsoever since Waiters.

In regards to your first post, Canada has the talent currently to equal any CONCACAF country except for Mexico and the US. With a proper coach we may not qualify everytime but should qualify far more often than once every quarter century. Who are all the superstars that Jamaica and T&T have who are better than all of our players?

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

although you may be right, unless weve seen a training session hart has run we cant say he is completely lacking in skills. he must know something? what have you seen of dale to make you think hes any better?

Why would we need to see a training session when we have seen two games where his deficiencies were completely apparent? When I see a team in which every player is running in every direction with no apparent tactical formation and with no coordination between the players I can assume pretty accurately that this is not a well coached team. Mitchell's teams do play organized soccer and he employs his players effectively, something we have not seen even a hint of from Hart.

quote:the success of U20 2003 sure wasnt his doing, that was all atiba and hume and simpson, Rowdy Roddy Piper could have coached the team to similar success.

That is just a stupid comment. Do you have any idea who some of the players on the other teams were and where they are now? We had a good team at that tournament and Atiba, Hume and Simpson played well but don't forget it was the World Cup and we were playing against the best in the world. We were far, far from the most talented team in that tournament and to go as far as we did was quite an accomplishment both for the coach and the players.

[BrennanFan]

if it was really about dales coaching skills, why did the team suck so bad in the last U20 cup? didnt seem like the team then was amazingly coached, but it did seem like our players were less good than in 2003. just my thinking that mitchell was the common denominator and other factors played into the differences in success.

mitchell and hart are both mediocre in my opinion, but in our little time together situation theres not alot any coach can do. yes weve sucked organizationally under hart, but its not like he had time to instill a system, and with these guys coming from so many different leagues, styles, and not knowing eachother so well in general, its tough to judge hart.

[loyola]

In group play the difference between 2003 and 2005 is minimal (2 losses and 1 win in 2003, 2 losses and 1 tie in 2005). Let say that the Wagenaar mistake (which isn't DM fault...) doesn't happen and we beat Syria, we go to the next round and Mitchell is a good coach? Also, let's not forget that Mitchell won 2 qualifying tournament with his team, not something easy to do for a Canadian team, beating USA in 2003 and Mexico in 2005. He must be a good youth coach.

[stacks]

Radz can barely make his club side, he is not a Concacaf All-Star. And he's old!

quote:Originally posted by loyola

Hirschfeld ahead of Casey Keller, Brad Friedel, Oswaldo Sanchez, Marcus Henhmann, Tim Howard, Shaka Hislop??? You must be kidding. I think the players you've named are solid by the standard of CONCACAF but for the exception of Radz, none would be on an all-star team right now. Hutch, DeRo and Mckenna would be close tough.

As for the rest, I totally agree that preparation and bad decision (such as flying players 10 hours 4 days prior to a WCQ) have made our the participation to a WC pretty difficult. I also like the GC as a test for us to give us an idea of what kind of team we'll have in 2008.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by stacks

Radz can barely make his club side, he is not a Concacaf All-Star. And he's old!

My point was that I don't think more than one of our player would make a CONCACAF all-star team...so Radz would be my choice, maybe Hutch.

[RJB]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Why would we need to see a training session when we have seen two games where his deficiencies were completely apparent? When I see a team in which every player is running in every direction with no apparent tactical formation and with no coordination between the players I can assume pretty accurately that this is not a well coached team. Mitchell's teams do play organized soccer and he employs his players effectively, something we have not seen even a hint of from Hart.

That is just a stupid comment. Do you have any idea who some of the players on the other teams were and where they are now? We had a good team at that tournament and Atiba, Hume and Simpson played well but don't forget it was the World Cup and we were playing against the best in the world. We were far, far from the most talented team in that tournament and to go as far as we did was quite an accomplishment both for the coach and the players.

If I'm not mistaken, that U20 team of 2003 qualified out of third place in their group, and then got a favourable draw vs. Burkina Faso. I wouldn't call that great performance. (Were they 1-2 in the group, or 1-1-1?). But to respond to my own criticism, it was still a great run, and all that matters is that.

[Daniel]

2003 record:

L Australia

L Brazil

W Czech

W Burkina Faso

L Spain AET

So 2-0-3 or 2-1-2 if you count the Spain game as a draw.

[denis]

I really don’t think that we lack the talent of teams like T&T, Jamaica, Guatemala and Honduras. In fact behind Mexico and the US I believe we have the strongest midfield in CONCACAF. We have Radz and Dero who are strong attacking mids and Deguz and Hutch who are quite good defensive mids as well as passers. Our defense with an in form Stalteri and Mckenna is also likely to be stronger then that of the above mentioned competition. Where we probably lack the most is (as other have mentioned) is in scoring goals, and by rights most goals come from forwards. The truth is we don’t have a Ruiz, Wanchope, or David Suazo who can get goals for us out of nowhere. Unfortunately Hume, Friend or Ocean are not of the same quality of the above mentioned. This is not to say they cannot score, with the right support they certainly can. Hume is doing now in the CCC. The Hungary game to me showed we have the individual skill in place, just not the team chemistry. This will come with good coaching and preparation. Lets hope in the future we get start getting that.

[JamesW]

When does the WCQ start?

[loyola]

summer or fall 2008 for us.

[wildboy26]

Hirschfeld has not been part of the Canadian Soccer program for almost 2 years now and there are still people talking about him as if he is part of the team:

Players like Deguzman, Hutchinson, Mckenna, Hirschfeld, Radzinski and even

deRosario would make a Concacaf all star team easily,and we have more coming

through the pipeline- Yet we cannot beat beatable teams.

This really is a funny place. I get good laughs all the time from the postings here.

Radzinski the teams best player according to most here? Yes with what 1 goal in his last 10 games for Canada. Again great humour as always around here.

[RJB]

quote:Originally posted by wildboy26

Hirschfeld has not been part of the Canadian Soccer program for almost 2 years now and there are still people talking about him as if he is part of the team:

Players like Deguzman, Hutchinson, Mckenna, Hirschfeld, Radzinski and even

deRosario would make a Concacaf all star team easily,and we have more coming

through the pipeline- Yet we cannot beat beatable teams.

This really is a funny place. I get good laughs all the time from the postings here.

Radzinski the teams best player according to most here? Yes with what 1 goal in his last 10 games for Canada. Again great humour as always around here.

More of your useless diatribe. Back it up with facts Wildboy. When was the last time you saw Lars play to be able to say that he deserves a chance?

[ANC2]

Grizzley as I said before you are on a personal agenda. You judged a coach on one game which you did not like.The Jamaican site gave credit to Canada's play in JA and admitted they could have easily lost that game as well. Look at the Hungry game was that team not organized? It looked so to me, maybe I am not an expert like you. Maybe an experienced International coach could have done better with one day to prepare. Canada played well to me and judging from the comments of many around the pub I was at, it was positive. After all some simple chances were missed the result could have been different.

Holger loss three of his first 5 games, in charge. Then Holger advanced on a coin toss at the GC and then won it. Excellent I enjoyed that. Yet he had a stinker of a WCQ, with bad losses to T&T and a tie with Panama. So success is ?

Mitchell's ultra defensive style as shown against Colombia & Italy is maybe what you want. Good luck getting a single shot on goal.

[ANC2]

Grizzley as I said before you are on a personal agenda. You judged a coach on one game which you did not like.The Jamaican site gave credit to Canada's play in JA and admitted they could have easily lost that game as well. Look at the Hungry game was that team not organized? It looked so to me, maybe I am not an expert like you. Maybe an experienced International coach could have done better with one day to prepare. Canada played well to me and judging from the comments of many around the pub I was at, it was positive. After all some simple chances were missed the result could have been different.

Holger loss three of his first 5 games, in charge. Then Holger advanced on a coin toss at the GC and then won it. Excellent I enjoyed that. Yet he had a stinker of a WCQ, with bad losses to T&T and a tie with Panama. So success is ?

Mitchell's ultra defensive style as shown against Colombia & Italy is maybe what you want. Good luck getting a single shot on goal.