CSA to MLS: Make room for 2nd Canadian team -2010

[Vancouversoccerman]

The latest from the Friends of Soccer blog:

As Toronto FC unveiled it's new Major League Soccer logo today, Canadian Soccer Association C.O.O. Kevin Pipe had a clear message for the league: make room for a 2nd Canadian team in 2010.

That team is most likely to be Vancouver.

With strong ownership, a new downtown stadium in the works, and a stated goal to play at the top level of North American professional soccer, the Vancouver Whitecaps appear to be next in line for MLS expansion. Mr. Pipe pressed that point today on MLS Commissioner Don Garber.

"Don, keep a second spot open in 2010. We know you're working towards having 16 clubs. I'm going to keep your feet close to the fire on that as we move forward. We have other Canadian cities who are really looking at Major League Soccer in a very serious way."

The only other contender is Montreal, who recently delayed plans to build a Soccer Specific Stadium.

The new National Soccer Stadium in Toronto is being built primarily using municipal, provincial and federal funds with a minority investment made by Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment. When Toronto City Council approved funding for the stadium in October, 2005, Mayor David Miller said "It's a great deal for Toronto. The city gets a $60 million community asset for only $9.8 million."

The Vancouver Whitecaps proposed stadium is privately-financed on land they purchased from Fairmont - a private company. They have said previously that they are financially committed to making the stadium happen. The new Vancouver stadium would be an invaluable asset to Canadian soccer, as Vancouver has the only climate in the country that allows for year-round soccer.

Major League Soccer has designed special rules which force Toronto FC to field a predominantly Canadian team. Mr. Pipe believes that the arrival of MLS in Toronto will have an immediate impact on the fortunes of Canadian Soccer.

"Today is a day of celebration. The arrival of MLS in Toronto is going to change the game overnight. Here in this city we will see the finest players in North America. The immediate impact is apparent. It's going to allow our national team players to finally play in Canada at a complete professional level. We expect to see a lot of our players returning home from Europe to play for Toronto FC. We also expect to see immediate improvement. With two seasons under our belt, we fully expect our national team to achieve it's goal of qualifying for the 2010 World Cup in South Africa.""

Besides the new MLS team, Toronto's National Soccer Stadium will also play host to the second biggest event in Men's soccer: The Fifa Under-20 World Cup. While Vancouver's Swangard Stadium will be a venue for the preliminary matches of the tournament, it will be Toronto's shrine that hosts the final.

"July 22, 2007 - When the Fifa Under-20 World Cup Final is held in the new National Soccer Stadium, there will be over 100 million people worldwide watching soccer from Toronto. Who ever would have thought it?"

To help make the Whitecaps Waterfront Stadium a reality, visit us at www.friendsofsoccer.org .

[Bxl Boy]

“Canadian Soccer Association President Kevin Pipe”

wtf ???????????

[Elias]

I can't see it happening. 2 Canadian teams in a 16 team league? And I doubt Pipe has the balls to just say it, along with the DeRo to Toronto comment. I'm sure it was coordinated with MLS/Garber so this way settles down a few people in Vancouver and Montreal, and gives them incentive to build their soccer stadiums and invest in pro soccer.

Just as MLS is probably planning on moving DeRo to Toronto, so that's why Pipe said it. It will probably be a tough sell in Houston but I don't think they have a choice.

As for expansion teams, they want a 2nd team in New York, that university in Philadelphia/South Jersey seems to be moving ahead with a soccer stadium, Cleveland and St. Louis seem to be serious contenders. I'm sure they want back into San Jose. The Atlanta USL team is building I believe a new stadium with plans to expand it to 20 000 eventually. There's too many U.S. cities.

[Vancouversoccerman]

quote:Originally posted by Bxl Boy

“Canadian Soccer Association President Kevin Pipe”

wtf ???????????

Thanks for pointing that out. I made the change.

Cheers,

Bill

[Massive Attack]

Vancouversoccerman, great work in supporting the new stadium. I wish you guys all the luck in the world.

As per Vancouver in the MLS, I can see it happening for one simple fact. I think MLS is actually desperate for investors in new franchises.

The MLS still hasn't announced the team that will join Toronto in 2007.

[Winnipeg Fury]

Let's hope for the sake of Canadian soccer that it does happen. One MLS club will do very little for Canadian soccer, especially considering that they are probably killing the Lynx in the process. Despite all the bitching about the Lynx, they have developed more players for our national team over the past 10 years than any other club.

My question: Toronto is already whining about a lack of Canadian players. Who will develop Canadian players for MLS when our current USL clubs move to MLS ?

[KAS]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

I can't see it happening. 2 Canadian teams in a 16 team league?

As for expansion teams, they want a 2nd team in New York, that university in Philadelphia/South Jersey seems to be moving ahead with a soccer stadium, Cleveland and St. Louis seem to be serious contenders. I'm sure they want back into San Jose. The Atlanta USL team is building I believe a new stadium with plans to expand it to 20 000 eventually. There's too many U.S. cities.

The 14th team will either be Cleveland or St Louis. As for the 15th and 16th teams, yes there is serious competition, but Vancouver has a good shot. Vancouver opens up a new geographic area/TV market, a great new SSS is being built, and there is an owner in place with the money and experience to make it happen.

Another thing to consider is that although MLS likes expansion money (what league doesn't), losses in the MLS are somewhat shared. Newspaper articles posted on Bigsoccer show that Salt Lake and Kansas City - two very small markets by MLS standards that play in massive football stadiums - are in deep trouble. I think that some of these contending cities will get a team through relocation instead of expansion. It would be good for the overall health of the league.

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by KAS

I can't see it happening. 2 Canadian teams in a 16 team league?

The 14th team will either be Cleveland or St Louis.

Says who? San Jose has bee promised an expansion team once they have a new stadium in place. The next team will be the second team in NJ.

[KAS]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

Let's hope for the sake of Canadian soccer that it does happen. One MLS club will do very little for Canadian soccer, especially considering that they are probably killing the Lynx in the process. Despite all the bitching about the Lynx, they have developed more players for our national team over the past 10 years than any other club.

My question: Toronto is already whining about a lack of Canadian players. Who will develop Canadian players for MLS when our current USL clubs move to MLS ?

Between Houston, USL, and the lower leagues/teams in Europe (particularly Norway), there is plenty for the Toronto team as long as they can find enough room under the cap to lure Canadians from Scandanavia while still getting good foreigners. The appeal of playing at home, possible preference for MNT, and lower taxes than Europe, should count for something.

As for the USL teams, they will survive. Transfer money will help. If groundsharing the SSS can't save the Lynx, then they already have the right colours for Hamilton. If the existing USL owners in Montreal and Vancouver are the ones to go MLS (extremely likely of course) then they could fold the teams to put all the assets into MLS, but keeping the USL teams for development, and to share the stadium and organization/office expenses, would make the most sense.

Who knows, the increased profile of soccer in Canada could lead to greater investment in infrastructure and the return of professional teams to Ottawa, Winnipeg, Calgary and Edmonton.

[KAS]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

Says who? San Jose has bee promised an expansion team once they have a new stadium in place. The next team will be the second team in NJ.

Garber says, that's who! Go to Bigsoccer for the article. The winner will be announced before/at the all-star game in August.

San Jose *might* get a new stadium, but thats not the same as actually building one. Many cities have "plans" for new stadiums, but few are actually built. Since leagues hate the imbalance in the schedule that an uneven number of teams create, MLS cannot wait in granting a 14th team - which is why it will happen in August.

[harding]

"The arrival of MLS in Toronto is going to change the game overnight"

-Kevin Pipe.

Well it's the day after and when I look out my window, the game remains the same. To base all your hopes and dreams on one single event is laughable.

But then again there is a reason why Canada hasn't see the WC in 20 years. Kevin Pipe.

I love looking at other countries.

Australia is a good place to start. Has it's own nation league. Has a ton of players playing real top flight pro football in Europe. It's domestic league is a "feeder" league where it's best players get picked up by better clubs. You could say Norway works in the same way.

Pipe's universe is the opposite.

One team in a American league where players who can't make top flight football in Europe come to play. And the clubs that have actually sent players to Europe over the last 10 years are demeaned.

I doubt the future belongs to us.

[Crazy_Yank]

Having 3 MLS teams in Canada would be huge for your national team. It would allow you to have a core part of your team training together. Isn't not having enough friendlies and not being able to bring your players together a big complaint you guys have about your national team?

[Blue and White Army]

As a Vancouver Whitecaps supporter, I'm a bit concerned over the way the MLS is run, and I'm not sure I want my club to be a part of it.

I want top-flight footie in a great stadium, but isn't the MLS a bit of a closed-shop, with massive financial losses? What happens if any of the three main sugar-daddies who are propping up the league financially get bored and pull out?

Clubs (and the league itself) should be financially self-sufficient. Even with a salary cap, that isn't the case with MLS, is it?

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Blue and White Army

As a Vancouver Whitecaps supporter, I'm a bit concerned over the way the MLS is run, and I'm not sure I want my club to be a part of it.

Then don't join MLS then. Its quite simple.

[analyst]

If Vancouver gets a MLS team, it may be the relocated Toronto FC team. Toronto FC should do well the first year due to the novelty of a new stadium and new team, then attendance will drop.

During Vancouvers Whitecaps/86ers worst days, with poor management, it still outdrew the Toronto team.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I have one primary concern about the Whitecaps: as an organization dedicated to sports management they have a long way to go before convincing MLS that they can be a viable partner.

I know that the money is there, that MLS might find it interesting to have another partner like Kerfoot on board, thus sharing risks, but the club is still run like a semi-pro operation. Sure, some of the things needed to work in MLS are already set out by the league, and you just have to take their lead and follow. That is helpful at the start. But I am not sure the Caps have too many sport business professionals on board, nor experts in many other aspects of business of this nature. It is too much like Bobby Lenarduzzi's private domain, a bit too small town and friendly.

Thus if MLS is not convinced by the organization in Vancouver that Kerfoot has set up (and he has absolutely no idea of what other way things could be done, while I think he should be studying other club management options more seriously to have some criteria dealing with his own team), there will be no Vancouver team, as there is no other possibility to turn to in the market. Only Kerfoot in Vancouver, not even in Montreal are the options so limited, at least not yet.

This was not the case in Toronto, where there may have been more than one option when it came to chosing a group or entity to run the club, as none of whom were stadium owners and thus dictating anything in that regard.

[Richard]

Jeffrey S., casting pearls of wisdom from afar again.

The Whitecaps organisation has a solid core of experienced sports management professionals on staff and if more are required to meet the requirements of MLS they can be hired.

[Richard]

Jeffrey S., casting pearls of wisdom from afar again.

The Whitecaps organisation has a solid core of experienced sports management professionals on staff and if more are required to meet the requirements of MLS they can be hired.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Jeffrey S., casting pearls of wisdom from afar again.

The Whitecaps organisation has a solid core of experienced sports management professionals on staff and if more are required to meet the requirements of MLS they can be hired.

The Whitecaps are the longest running pro soccer team in North America. They have also had the most consistent support over the years.

With a new SSS, the former North American and 4X Canadian champion is an obvious choice for MLS.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Jeffrey S., casting pearls of wisdom from afar again.

The Whitecaps organisation has a solid core of experienced sports management professionals on staff and if more are required to meet the requirements of MLS they can be hired.

The Whitecaps is semi-pro at best. They are run like a small company. They will need some new really experienced pros in sport management if they want to successfully make the jump to MLS.

The real problem they have is that they don't know what they are and what they want to be, and Kerfoot just puts up money without having any criteria on such vital questions. I think, at times, his staff simply takes him for a ride.

Fortunately the real estate moves have been mostly his, as the operation was way over the heads of the Whitecaps organization.

Tell us, Richard: how much contact have YOU had with the organization itself? Are you telling me that is a full-fledged pro sports organization you are dealing with?

I have to respond to Fury arguing that the Caps are the longest running soccer team in North America: wrong. Vancouver is one of the city's where pro soccer has not disappeared over the years. It is like always having a tree in your back yard, it is not the same if it is the same tree or a succession of different plantings. Suggesting that this is the same organization that existed 10, 20, thirty or even, almost, 40 years ago is completely incorrect.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

I have to respond to Fury arguing that the Caps are the longest running soccer team in North America: wrong. Vancouver is one of the city's where pro soccer has not disappeared over the years. It is like always having a tree in your back yard, it is not the same if it is the same tree or a succession of different plantings. Suggesting that this is the same organization that existed 10, 20, thirty or even, almost, 40 years ago is completely incorrect.

And how is this club different than the Vancouver 86ers of the 80's & 90's Jeffrey ? The leagues may have changed, (CSL, APSL, A-League, USL) but this is the exact same Vancouver club. BL was in charge of the club then and he is in charge of the club now. There is no difference. The home crowds are exactly the same now as they were in the CSL, and they play in the same venue. Yes, they have a new owner (not the first) and obviously over the years the players have changed. The same as years ago, they have a reserve team in the PCSL. This club is the 86ers. They simply changed their name for marketing reasons (a positive move).

One could make the arguement that this club is different than the Whitecaps organization of the 70's & 80's, but it is the exact same organization as the 86er's of the 80's & 90's. The current BL regime of 86'ers and Whitecaps has now been in existence for 20 years. Add on the prior years of the Whitecaps, and you have a club that has been in existence since 1974 (with the exception of 85).

[Crazy_Yank]

I would like to point out that the number crunchers have shown that when MLS has 8 soccer specific stadiums they will be at break even point. This will happen as early as 2010.

[RJB]

quote:Originally posted by Blue and White Army

As a Vancouver Whitecaps supporter, I'm a bit concerned over the way the MLS is run, and I'm not sure I want my club to be a part of it.

I want top-flight footie in a great stadium, but isn't the MLS a bit of a closed-shop, with massive financial losses? What happens if any of the three main sugar-daddies who are propping up the league financially get bored and pull out?

Clubs (and the league itself) should be financially self-sufficient. Even with a salary cap, that isn't the case with MLS, is it?

I agree completely. I'm a Caps season ticket holder, and I enjoy going to the games where I'm watching a team that is mine. Owned locally, with decisions made in house. MLS being single entity, with owners owning multiple teams (think Phil Anshuz(sp)) gives the league too much say in what my club is doing.

And my fears are not quelled by these rumours that the league is going to force Houston to move DeRo to Toronto. That is bush-league. At least right now, the Whitecaps are their own bosses.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank

I would like to point out that the number crunchers have shown that when MLS has 8 soccer specific stadiums they will be at break even point. This will happen as early as 2010.

Is this after the 100 Million or so investment in the stadium is paid off?

Never believe any pro sports teams books.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

I can't see it happening. 2 Canadian teams in a 16 team league? And I doubt Pipe has the balls to just say it, along with the DeRo to Toronto comment. I'm sure it was coordinated with MLS/Garber so this way settles down a few people in Vancouver and Montreal, and gives them incentive to build their soccer stadiums and invest in pro soccer.

Just as MLS is probably planning on moving DeRo to Toronto, so that's why Pipe said it. It will probably be a tough sell in Houston but I don't think they have a choice.

As for expansion teams, they want a 2nd team in New York, that university in Philadelphia/South Jersey seems to be moving ahead with a soccer stadium, Cleveland and St. Louis seem to be serious contenders. I'm sure they want back into San Jose. The Atlanta USL team is building I believe a new stadium with plans to expand it to 20 000 eventually. There's too many U.S. cities.

The problem is that Garber has soured the San Jose market so badly that he will have to work out of an even bigger hole if they return to that market. As for the others, they've done damage by pricing themselves out of the US markets they could really use (ie. Seattle, Portland, Rochester etc.)

RBNY's sale was far more about the stadium than the team. The price for the team was $25 Million so AEG is selling at a loss at this point. Most of the money is going to the stadium for naming rights and joint ownership of the stadium. Phil and Lamar know hey can make more money off of the stadium than they can off of the team itself.

As for Canadian teams, Pipe burned his bridges in how he dealt with Toronto FC. He just doesn't want to deal with people who's aims are for the soccer community at large.