CSA to MLS: Make room for 2nd Canadian team -2010

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank

I would like to point out that the number crunchers have shown that when MLS has 8 soccer specific stadiums they will be at break even point. This will happen as early as 2010.

Not sure that just building them will make that so.....watched the highlights of the FC Dallas v Dynamo game from the SS Pizza Hut Park.....looked to be primarily empty (although MLS are reporting over 12,500 atteneded)......even if the crowd was 12,500 (doubt it given the visual evidence on FSW) it is hard to see a league getting in the black when that is the best they can do on a sunny day between two interstate rivals who had just played a corker of a match the week before in Houston!!!

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

The Whitecaps is semi-pro at best. They are run like a small company. They will need some new really experienced pros in sport management if they want to successfully make the jump to MLS.

The real problem they have is that they don't know what they are and what they want to be, and Kerfoot just puts up money without having any criteria on such vital questions. I think, at times, his staff simply takes him for a ride.

Fortunately the real estate moves have been mostly his, as the operation was way over the heads of the Whitecaps organization.

Tell us, Richard: how much contact have YOU had with the organization itself? Are you telling me that is a full-fledged pro sports organization you are dealing with?

I have to respond to Fury arguing that the Caps are the longest running soccer team in North America: wrong. Vancouver is one of the city's where pro soccer has not disappeared over the years. It is like always having a tree in your back yard, it is not the same if it is the same tree or a succession of different plantings. Suggesting that this is the same organization that existed 10, 20, thirty or even, almost, 40 years ago is completely incorrect.

What's completely incorrect is your assertion that the Whitecaps are Semi-pro and run like a "small company". Obviously, you haven't had ANY contact with the club, because if you did, you'd see the amount of staff they have. Have a look at the club web-site and check the contacts directory. In the 86er days, they had 3 people in the office for the whole club.

Now, they've moved into the beautiful Landing building overlooking the proposed stadium site, and the amount of staff is staggering. (I think they're overstaffed personally) but Mr K wants to develop a group of people in order to take the next step.

Much like another company he ran. A small company. A semi-pro company known as...Crystal Decisions.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

even if the crowd was 12,500 (doubt it given the visual evidence on FSW) it is hard to see a league getting in the black when that is the best they can do on a sunny day between two interstate rivals who had just played a corker of a match the week before in Houston!!!

To be fair it was 120 degrees F at kick off.

Dallas alienated a lot of its fan base over the past couple of years, and the move to Frisco hasn't helped matters. They've certainly got their work cut out for them, although the break even point at an SSS is a lot lower than at a rented football stadium, so even with the 15k average that they been pulling in, the situation is better than at the Cotton Bowl.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

To be fair it was 120 degrees F at kick off.

Dallas alienated a lot of its fan base over the past couple of years, and the move to Frisco hasn't helped matters. They've certainly got their work cut out for them, although the break even point at an SSS is a lot lower than at a rented football stadium, so even with the 15k average that they been pulling in, the situation is better than at the Cotton Bowl.

Did you see the highlights (or the game)? There was no where near 12k in that stadium!!!

When is the temp "just right" for soccer in North America? April/May in Northeast is too cold and damp....now it is too hot in Texas.

[Ivan]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Did you see the highlights (or the game)? There was no where near 12k in that stadium!!!

When is the temp "just right" for soccer in North America? April/May in Northeast is too cold and damp....now it is too hot in Texas.

Yes TOareaFan, we got that point earlier. Not that I want to speak for Rudi, but I think he may just have been suggesting a possible reason for it.

If I may ask, are you pleased that Toronto was awarded an MLS franchise?

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Did you see the highlights (or the game)? There was no where near 12k in that stadium!!!

When is the temp "just right" for soccer in North America? April/May in Northeast is too cold and damp....now it is too hot in Texas.

Yes, I did see the highlights. You're absolutely right, there was no where near 12K in that stadium.

According to people that went to the game, there was more like 8k, tops (the vast majority sat on the same side as the cameras, avoiding have to stare directly into the sun).

As I posted in another thread, MLS teams count tickets distributed, not butts in seats, so there is always going to be a disparity between actual attendance versus announced attendance.

I also posted that I think that all games in Texas should be at night (Saturday's match was an ESPN game, which is always at mid-afternoon) as it is too damn hot to be roasting in an open-air stadium, not to mention the play on the field gets slowed down dramatically, making for an inferior product.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Yes, I did see the highlights. You're absolutely right, there was no where near 12K in that stadium.

According to people that went to the game, there was more like 8k, tops (the vast majority sat on the same side as the cameras, avoiding have to stare directly into the sun).

As I posted in another thread, MLS teams count tickets distributed, not butts in seats, so there is always going to be a disparity between actual attendance versus announced attendance.

I also posted that I think that all games in Texas should be at night (Saturday's match was an ESPN game, which is always at mid-afternoon) as it is too damn hot to be roasting in an open-air stadium, not to mention the play on the field gets slowed down dramatically, making for an inferior product.

Good suggestion on only having night games...I think that is how baseball handles the Rangers (although I am not sure about that)...makes you wonder why only you seem to have thought about it....surely it cannot be good for the league's image to have a highlight package showing that many empty seats? I have now seen your post in the other area (hadn't when I posted that last response)...makes sense that a 21k stadium would have about 8k on each side and 5k at one end......since the end and the other side were, virtually, empty then 8k on the full side makes some sense.

Perhaps that was a SSS that should have had cover/shade as part of the construction!

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Ivan

Yes TOareaFan, we got that point earlier. Not that I want to speak for Rudi, but I think he may just have been suggesting a possible reason for it.

If I may ask, are you pleased that Toronto was awarded an MLS franchise?

Not sure why you are asking that here but, yes. I have said it before that I am happy that the best level of soccer in North America is going to be here (although I would prefere us to have our own league setup but that ship appears to have sailed). I have also said that I wish them every success and am going to support that with my money.

What has that to do with me responding to someone's suggestion that building 8 SSS by a certain date will, somehow, put the majortiy of MLS in the black with an example of how SSS does not necessarily mean big crowds?

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

To be fair it was 120 degrees F at kick off.

Dallas alienated a lot of its fan base over the past couple of years, and the move to Frisco hasn't helped matters. They've certainly got their work cut out for them, although the break even point at an SSS is a lot lower than at a rented football stadium, so even with the 15k average that they been pulling in, the situation is better than at the Cotton Bowl.

120F? Well it's monday and it's 79F. Imagine what that Fieldturf™ surface will get up to in August.

Seems like they need a airconditioned dome stadium or at least a grass field.

Excuses Excuses Excuses.

[Ivan]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Not sure why you are asking that here but, yes. I have said it before that I am happy that the best level of soccer in North America is going to be here (although I would prefere us to have our own league setup but that ship appears to have sailed). I have also said that I wish them every success and am going to support that with my money.

What has that to do with me responding to someone's suggestion that building 8 SSS by a certain date will, somehow, put the majortiy of MLS in the black with an example of how SSS does not necessarily mean big crowds?

Just curious as to where you stood. I thought you were for MLS in Canada (I agree with, and remember, your preface).

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Good suggestion on only having night games...I think that is how baseball handles the Rangers (although I am not sure about that)...makes you wonder why only you seem to have thought about it....surely it cannot be good for the league's image to have a highlight package showing that many empty seats?

Unfortunately, I don't think it's the league's call.

They have a guaranteed afternoon slot to fill on ESPN/2 every Saturday, and I'm sure the execs at ESPN want to feature as many teams as possible over the course of the season.

One can only hope that in the current MLS-ESPN negotiations, the league intends to address this situation, as playing games in those kinds of conditions (pretty much guaranteed in Texas from May to August) is nothing but bad news.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Unfortunately, I don't think it's the league's call.

They have a guaranteed afternoon slot to fill on ESPN/2 every Saturday, and I'm sure the execs at ESPN want to feature as many teams as possible over the course of the season.

One can only hope that in the current MLS-ESPN negotiations, the league intends to address this situation, as playing games in those kinds of conditions (pretty much guaranteed in Texas from May to August) is nothing but bad news.

Yup, you'd think for a league that has had a team in Dallas for 11 years that they'd figure it out by now. Can't wait for the excuse for Wednesdays night game in NY.

What's the ratings on ESPN 2 by the way compared to lacrosse or even girls college softball?

[masster]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Yup, you'd think for a league that has had a team in Dallas for 11 years that they'd figure it out by now. Can't wait for the excuse for Wednesdays night game in NY.

What's the ratings on ESPN 2 by the way compared to lacrosse or even girls college softball?

Or hockey when the they had the rights? Whats your point? Cause the NHL didn't get huge numbers does that mean its a ****ty product.

Give it a rest!

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by masster

Or hockey when the they had the rights? Whats your point? Cause the NHL didn't get huge numbers does that mean its a ****ty product.

Give it a rest!

What it means is that I doubt that any current TV contract would require a MLS team to play a game at a certain time. And if it did, the MLS is a crazy to agree to it cause no one is watching the games.

I also expect no one to follow Edmonton FC with any great interest aroud the country. So it'll be interesting to see if a national sports network picks ups the games. Unless Sportsnet wants to keep it's EPL fans fed with soccer during the summer.

So expect 10AM kick-offs at Pogey Park as per TV contract. Which is a great time for soccer families to see a game. It's done by noon and the day isn't totally wasted.

[Guest Domi Rulezz]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

What it means is that I doubt that any current TV contract would require a MLS team to play a game at a certain time. And if it did, the MLS is a crazy to agree to it cause no one is watching the games.

Does it hurt being so ignorant?

Every league complies with TV schedules to play games at certain times.

Ever hear of the NFL? They're the biggest league in the world, and they're contractually obligated to play games every Sunday night on ESPN.

There's this little program called Monday Night Football that ran on ABC for about 30 years, you may have heard of it. The NFL is contractually obligated to schedule a game every Monday night at a certain time.

Or how about Hockey Night in Canada, every Saturday at 7:00 (local time). Notice that all the Canadian teams seem to play on that day? That's because of a contract that the NHL has with CBC.

MLS is no different in this regard. They are a fledgling league that needs exposure. ABC/ESPN has agreed to give them that exposure, but only if MLS schedules games during certain windows to conform to ABC/ESPN's programming aschedule.

Luckily for MLS, they don't have people like you running the show. "Thanks for offering to put our struggling league on national TV, but we'd rather not play at the times that you want us to play, so we're going to have to say no."

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Domi Rulezz

Does it hurt being so ignorant?

Every league complies with TV schedules to play games at certain times.

Ever hear of the NFL? They're the biggest league in the world, and they're contractually obligated to play games every Sunday night on ESPN.

There's this little program called Monday Night Football that ran on ABC for about 30 years, you may have heard of it. The NFL is contractually obligated to schedule a game every Monday night at a certain time.

Or how about Hockey Night in Canada, every Saturday at 7:00 (local time). Notice that all the Canadian teams seem to play on that day? That's because of a contract that the NHL has with CBC.

MLS is no different in this regard. They are a fledgling league that needs exposure. ABC/ESPN has agreed to give them that exposure, but only if MLS schedules games during certain windows to conform to ABC/ESPN's programming aschedule.

Luckily for MLS, they don't have people like you running the show. "Thanks for offering to put our struggling league on national TV, but we'd rather not play at the times that you want us to play, so we're going to have to say no."

Ignorant?

The NFL has always played on a sunday going back 50 years or so. As for Monday night football, it's been dropped due to lack of interest due to that Sunday night game you talk of. People it seems, see Sunday as NFL day. Saturday belongs to the NCAA.

So I think the NFL dictates when it'll play, not the networks. It's also figured out what it's fans want. Games on Sunday. Kinda like the EPL- games on Saturday thank you with some lesser teams mid-week.

But what you need to do to have a day of the week associated with your product? well it's a passionate fan base that numbers in millions or in the hundred millions as per the EPL's popularity around the world.

Which is something that Pro Lacrosse, mini-outt and the MLS is a hundred million fans away from.

Until then, if ESPN6 tells MLS to play it's games on thursday nights, to fill a sheduling whole between beach baseball and a girls gone wild 3 infomerical, it will. Screw the season ticket holder. And that is short sighted.

And when your bread and butter is the "gate"- hense all the SSS's, why worry about your sad little TV contract?

But then I won't expect a guy with the handle "Domi Rulezz" to understand. How is Tie?

[Ivan]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

[Guest Domi Rulezz]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Ignorant?

The NFL has always played on a sunday going back 50 years or so. As for Monday night football, it's been dropped due to lack of interest due to that Sunday night game you talk of. People it seems, see Sunday as NFL day. Saturday belongs to the NCAA.

Monday Night Football was dropped? Tell that to the Walt Disney Company, who moved MNF from ABC to ESPN. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/schedule?year=2006&season=0)

quote:So I think the NFL dictates when it'll play, not the networks. It's also figured out what it's fans want. Games on Sunday. Kinda like the EPL- games on Saturday thank you with some lesser teams mid-week.

Yes, I'm sure that the networks that shell out billions of dollars in rights fees have absolutely no say as to when the games will be played.

quote:But what you need to do to have a day of the week associated with your product? well it's a passionate fan base that numbers in millions or in the hundred millions as per the EPL's popularity around the world.

You need to have a day of the week associated with your product? WTF do you think MLS having the overwhelming majority of their matches on Saturdays is trying to accomplish? (http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/mls/schedule/)

quote:Which is something that Pro Lacrosse, mini-outt and the MLS is a hundred million fans away from.

So these leagues should just give up then, because they don't have the millions of fans that other leagues (who have built up those fanbases over geberations) have?

And I'm not quite sure what "mini-outt" is, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it relates to every time you take a piss.

quote:Until then, if ESPN6 tells MLS to play it's games on thursday nights, to fill a sheduling whole between beach baseball and a girls gone wild 3 infomerical, it will. Screw the season ticket holder. And that is short sighted.

There is a huge difference between playing a guaranteed Saturday afternoon game what you're suggesting.

Of course that doesn't stop you from repeating your erroneous point.

quote:And when your bread and butter is the "gate"- hense all the SSS's, why worry about your sad little TV contract?

With that attitude, nobody should ever get out of bed in the morning, because none of us will be as rich as Bill Gates.

quote:But then I won't expect a guy with the handle "Domi Rulezz" to understand. How is Tie?

Much like your ability to comprehend even the simplest matters, my handle is a joke.

You continually demonstrate no understanding of the "points" that you try to make, yet that doesn't stop you from repeatedly embarrassing yourself and bringing this board to a halt with your ridiculous threadjacks.

[Guest Domi Rulezz]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Ignorant?

The NFL has always played on a sunday going back 50 years or so. As for Monday night football, it's been dropped due to lack of interest due to that Sunday night game you talk of. People it seems, see Sunday as NFL day. Saturday belongs to the NCAA.

Monday Night Football was dropped? Tell that to the Walt Disney Company, who moved MNF from ABC to ESPN. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/schedule?year=2006&season=0)

quote:So I think the NFL dictates when it'll play, not the networks. It's also figured out what it's fans want. Games on Sunday. Kinda like the EPL- games on Saturday thank you with some lesser teams mid-week.

Yes, I'm sure that the networks that shell out billions of dollars in rights fees have absolutely no say as to when the games will be played.

quote:But what you need to do to have a day of the week associated with your product? well it's a passionate fan base that numbers in millions or in the hundred millions as per the EPL's popularity around the world.

You need to have a day of the week associated with your product? WTF do you think MLS having the overwhelming majority of their matches on Saturdays is trying to accomplish? (http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/mls/schedule/)

quote:Which is something that Pro Lacrosse, mini-outt and the MLS is a hundred million fans away from.

So these leagues should just give up then, because they don't have the millions of fans that other leagues (who have built up those fanbases over geberations) have?

And I'm not quite sure what "mini-outt" is, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it relates to every time you take a piss.

quote:Until then, if ESPN6 tells MLS to play it's games on thursday nights, to fill a sheduling whole between beach baseball and a girls gone wild 3 infomerical, it will. Screw the season ticket holder. And that is short sighted.

There is a huge difference between playing a guaranteed Saturday afternoon game what you're suggesting.

Of course that doesn't stop you from repeating your erroneous point.

quote:And when your bread and butter is the "gate"- hense all the SSS's, why worry about your sad little TV contract?

With that attitude, nobody should ever get out of bed in the morning, because none of us will be as rich as Bill Gates.

quote:But then I won't expect a guy with the handle "Domi Rulezz" to understand. How is Tie?

Much like your ability to comprehend even the simplest matters, my handle is a joke.

You continually demonstrate no understanding of the "points" that you try to make, yet that doesn't stop you from repeatedly embarrassing yourself and bringing this board to a halt with your ridiculous threadjacks.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Domi Rulezz

Monday Night Football was dropped? Tell that to the Walt Disney Company, who moved MNF from ABC to ESPN. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/schedule?year=2006&season=0)

Yes, I'm sure that the networks that shell out billions of dollars in rights fees have absolutely no say as to when the games will be played.

You need to have a day of the week associated with your product? WTF do you think MLS having the overwhelming majority of their matches on Saturdays is trying to accomplish? (http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/mls/schedule/)

So these leagues should just give up then, because they don't have the millions of fans that other leagues (who have built up those fanbases over geberations) have?

And I'm not quite sure what "mini-outt" is, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it relates to every time you take a piss.

There is a huge difference between playing a guaranteed Saturday afternoon game what you're suggesting.

Of course that doesn't stop you from repeating your erroneous point.

With that attitude, nobody should ever get out of bed in the morning, because none of us will be as rich as Bill Gates.

Much like your ability to comprehend even the simplest matters, my handle is a joke.

You continually demonstrate no understanding of the "points" that you try to make, yet that doesn't stop you from repeatedly embarrassing yourself and bringing this board to a halt with your ridiculous threadjacks.

yes Rudi.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Domi Rulezz

Monday Night Football was dropped? Tell that to the Walt Disney Company, who moved MNF from ABC to ESPN. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/schedule?year=2006&season=0)

Yes, I'm sure that the networks that shell out billions of dollars in rights fees have absolutely no say as to when the games will be played.

You need to have a day of the week associated with your product? WTF do you think MLS having the overwhelming majority of their matches on Saturdays is trying to accomplish? (http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/mls/schedule/)

So these leagues should just give up then, because they don't have the millions of fans that other leagues (who have built up those fanbases over geberations) have?

And I'm not quite sure what "mini-outt" is, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it relates to every time you take a piss.

There is a huge difference between playing a guaranteed Saturday afternoon game what you're suggesting.

Of course that doesn't stop you from repeating your erroneous point.

With that attitude, nobody should ever get out of bed in the morning, because none of us will be as rich as Bill Gates.

Much like your ability to comprehend even the simplest matters, my handle is a joke.

You continually demonstrate no understanding of the "points" that you try to make, yet that doesn't stop you from repeatedly embarrassing yourself and bringing this board to a halt with your ridiculous threadjacks.

yes Rudi.

[Guest Domi Rulezz]

What was that, Beast?