morrison Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42 I think corporate logos on shirts are going to be a reality. I don't see how this was questioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly This may all be a moot point because I don't think MLS allows shirt sponsorship at the moment. MLS does allow shirt sponsorship, just not on the front of the shirt. The sponsor's patches are placed below the numbers on the back of the uniforms. Blurry pic below: That's a 'Yahoo!' patch on the Earthquakes' kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 quote:Originally posted by morrison I don't see how this was questioned. I have to agree. It has been standard fare for...well...what must be almost decades now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 quote:Originally posted by sstackho Well-placed microphones are also important for capturing the stadium atmosphere on a television broadcast. I find it very hard to get into a match if the stadium sounds aren't in the front of the mix. Right on the money. Good crowd noise mic-ing makes any unimportant match sound like a big deal, and worthy of paying attention too. Supporter section to the rescue lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly The sponsor logos are more recent than people think. It started in England with Liverpool in 79.... On 24 July 1979, a sad day for football purists, Liverpool announced their players' shirts would bear the logo of the club's sponsor, Hitachi Thats even older than I figured. I dont even remember Hitachi on Liverpool jerseys. The earliest sponsor I remember for Liverpoobl is probably Crown Paints lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 Not sure what the stadium designs are, but any chance of storage for stuff like musical instruments, banners, riot sticks ect... for the voyagerus/c-side/??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca I'll repeat what I mentioned on bigsoccer.com a week ago, that what is needed for television broadcasts is someone who can help sell the game and give it a professional feel, not the amateurish feel that Sportsnet Canadian soccer broadcasts can provide - in spite of the best efforts of Craig Forrest as an analyst - he is based in Toronto now, so I wouldn't mind if you used him as a colour commentator for Toronto MLS matches - he's knowledgeable, popular, well-liked by the fans and can bring some credibility to the sport. He can also by analytical and yet not afraid to criticize. In my opinion the colour man is less important, and a good one less difficult to find, than the play by play man, as he (or she I guess) has the bigger job in selling the game, making it exciting. There haven't been many good play by play guys for Canadian soccer in the last 15 or so years. You need someone that will make it sound exciting, is knowledgeable about the game, and has a great voice. The current tv voice of soccer in Canada, Gerry Dobson, has none of these things IMO. If you can avoid using him, please do so. In my experience He's not generally well-regarded as a play-by-play man outside of this board (or even by half the people on this board). TSN's Vic Rauter is remembered fondly by some on this board, but again I think many outside this board found him to be a bit embarrassing, if fun to imitate. I think G-Man's theory about Serie A not allegedly being all that popular because of television camera-angles is a wild one (I think there are more fundamental reasons why that might be the case, if it is) and as cynical as the rest of his post, but having said that it is important to get camera angles right as that helps with the professional presentation. If they have a VCR handy at the Duke I could show you some very good examples of how not to do it. Generally you don't want to have too low of an angle, as it doesn't allow you to see the play on the far side of the field that well, nor does it allow you to see how the play builds up. A higher angle is better, though not one that is too far away obviously. Above all, I would hope MLSE will go for the largest possible Canadian tv audience that it can. No point in being cynical about whether people from other parts of the country will tune in - you won't know until you try. het g-l. The Italian league broadcasts are terrible. But then again so are most of their stadiums. I bet the rating for the Raptors outside of Toronto are terrible. NO one cares in Montreal or anywhere else in small numbers. It'll be the same with soccer, especially of the games are week-end afternoon affairs. Wednesday night at 8- maybe if I'm home I'll watch. Week-ends- no way. The rest of Canada have lives and aren't going to sit around watching a regular season game they have no personal comittment to. A Toronto based team--hahaha. Now here's an idea. Have the team play a few games in real soccer markets, like in Montreal or Vancouver. Say 5 games in each. Those games would boost the season average by at least 7K per game. remember that Montreal averaged 11K a game and Vancouber 6K and Toronto averaged just over 2K a game in 2005. Call the team - The Pan Canadian Pros. Hey MLStoronto guy- save a bundle and move the team to Montreal now. Molson Stadium is a great 20K venue. And in Quebec RDS gets great numbers for the Impact. I wonder what the Toronto team's rating last year was.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 quote:Originally posted by G-Man Do we really think that people outside of Toronto, that are causual fans of the sport really want to stay in on a sunday afternoon in the summer to watch MLS soccer? Especially a game between the Toronto Insert Ethnic Name Here vs Bland Opponent inserted here. With the biggest star being Eddie Pope. Do I really have to post that quote of yours again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 quote:Originally posted by morrison Barcelona has yet to have a sponsor (could be wrong) and I know Athletic de Bilbao hasn't either... the former obviously makes lots of money. This has nothing to do with the Toronto MLS, just interesting to point out. First off, they figure that Bilbao now has changed their philosophy with an ad from the Basque Country, Euskadi. Will check that though. As they are a Basque side it is a way to draw funding without breaking a principle of not marketing a product: in effect, they market and promote their own identity. As for FCB, we have little ads, such as a TV3 Catalan television logo on the sleeve, and the Catalan flag on the nape of the neck is considered to be for the Catalan government (though I am not sure they pay). Just this week the board was discussing the question of the best offer to date, from Betandwin. My personal opinion is that the shirt is valuable as is, without advertising, and that no ads make the Nike swoosh even more prominent. Much like on national team uniforms. Thus Nike should pay us more -club president Laporta was in Portland in November I think- for not having a commercial on the front competing with them. It would make sense to me to see some small ads or logos on sleeves or at the back below the number, but I do prefer the N-American uniform model: strong colours, strong team logo. Though all these little "recommendations" are a bit naive: no name, logo, or colour is intrinsically erroneous, depends on the message, context, capacity for folks to assume change or difference. And as any such decision has to be made in line with a more global marketing strategy, there is no way to seriously recommend in this respect without knowing it and being part of it. I suspect they'll end up totally surprising all of you in terms of team name, logo, shirt colour and all, as marketing people have a penchant for doing just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juaninho Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 A bit late, but with regards to camera angles and coverage, I'd have mixed coverage. Since around half of the match is played in the midfield, it would be best to go with a higher angle, as it better illustrates the many options available to the player holding the ball. If it's too close and the player hoofs the ball across the pitch to a team-mate, all you see is the ball disappearing and then re-appearing later on. I think subconsciously, alot of this type of coverage would be disconcerting to the viewer. Whereas in the last third of the pitch, I'd go with a lower camera angle, but not too low, and a closer coverage of individual players, as they have less options to them, so they either do the safe thing and pass it back, or they try and beat the defender. If it is too high, then you don't get a sense of the urgency nor the skill required to create a good scoring opportunity. In addition to what Gian-Luca said, I'd suggest you watch some broadcast French Ligue 1 matches, they're available on TV5, and some Bundesliga matches, broadcast on Foxsportsworld. Try and tape a few matches where a few high-scoring teams are playing, such as Lyon and Bayern Munich, and see how they cover the matches, specifically midfield build-up and goal scoring opportunities. World Cup coverage is good, but as G-L said the EPL is the best standard. As an aside, I've always hated Madison Square Gardens' coverage of hockey, as it seems that their coverage comes from Soviet spy satellites - Much too high to get a sense of the action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAS Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 quote:Originally posted by mlsintoronto Sorry for not sharing but you already seem to understand the reasons why I cannot. I can share my personal opinion: I'm in favour of Red and white, and I like Toronto FC. I also would like to see us sell the front of a jersey to a sponsor ...not likely to happen...but my favourite all time kit is Kilmarnock (I think) - "Seriously Strong Cheddar" Thanks for replying directly to my post. It's appreciated. If I can critique your preferences, I would say that many have already dismissed "FC" as being a bad and confusing idea. The red/white combo must be just as common as blue/white, without speaking to Toronto's traditions. Also, you could be accused of trying to be "Canada's Team" and even supplanting the MNT. The fact that there will be many MNT members on the roster, and that MLSE reportedly (can you confirm?) tried to get the CSA to have the entire MNT coaching roster, including Yallop, onto the team, might raise suspicions. "Canada's Team" may sound appealing from a marketing perspective, but much of Canada, and certainly the Whitecaps and Impact, would be pissed! That's not your problem (it would be Peddie's), but it is something to consider. I knew about Kilmarnock's shirt. My relatives in Scotland live in a town just 4 miles from Kilmarnock (although the only soccer fan supports Celtic). What I find amazing is that Kilmarnock is home to one major international brand that we are all too familiar with: Johnnie Walker! While most top Scotch brands are in the north of Scotland, the mass-produced JW is based in Kilmarnock. Why they don't take the shirt is beyond me. Zoom Airlines sponsors Motherwell because Motherwell is not to far from Glasgow and Zoom flies there (as well as Manchester, London, and Paris - but I think their teams want a bit more money than Motherwell for sponsorship rights). I know that ManU (who started with Sharp in 1982 IIRC) are parting with Vodaphone and want atleast 10M pounds/year in a new deal to match Chelsea (Real Madrid wins with around 16M pounds/year). Alot of MLS shirts have/had Mastercard on the back and below the number. As far as TV production, Craig Forest would be good as he is not only Canada's greatest ever keeper (maybe best at any position), he is also objective and critical in an expert/technical sense. If you can't find a good Canadian play-by-play guy then someone of the English/Scottish/Irish persuasion would be your best foreign choice as "GGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!" would be stupid for a Toronto team and would be ridiculed. Also, HDTV would be nice, even if it is about $150,000/game extra in production costs. Instead of the cheap 1 camera high-center stand set-up, I would suggest 5 cameras: the main one, plus one behind each net (can be automated to save costs) and field-level at the two near corners for player-level action/close-ups, replays, and corner kicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 quote:Originally posted by G-Man het g-l. The Italian league broadcasts are terrible. Ignoring the portions of your post that deserve to be ignored, I'd say the only thing terrible about Serie A broadcasts is the current British announcers are boring (by British standards) and call the game in a studio, as opposed to actually being there, which results in the crowd noise being lowered, dovetailing nicely to what others have said. Which brings up another point, that I hope MLSE has no plans to have away games called out of a studio in Toronto. Send the guys with the team if you can. Sportsnet likes to save cash & have Gerry call the game out of their Sportsnet studios much of the time, which doesn't help his problem of frequently mis-identifying the players (which is bad enough as it is when he's actually at the stadium calling the game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante79 Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan I was thinking, something along the lines of this for the kit thats the jersey of Alianza Lima of the Peruvian 1st div. although I hate that team cause I like the other Lima team called "Universitario" I must admit they have a nice jersey! so it would be nice if the new Toronto franchise get a jersey similar to this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Observer Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 My few cents worth... First, i will admit some bias as I have lived in London/Amsterdam for 11 years now and for that reason maybe out of touch with NA culture a little bit and perhaps a bit too Eurocentric these days (although I am fervent supporter of Canada's national side and travel around Europe to watch them). But nevertheless, a few thoughts from here that mostly echo those on this board. Name/Colours: Obviously, you cannot just go with something European as its a North American market but remember soccers roots unlike basketball and hockey are European so a name and kit that reflects that will provide some instant heritage and identification with the fans. Jazzing it up a bit for the NA market is fine as long as it doesn't lose its roots. I imagine you guys will do your home work here with brand wheels, focus groups, etc. but I think with some effort you can appease both the ultras and the soccer moms and to be honest, you need both groups. Atmosphere/Entertainment: What works for most NA sports just can't work for soccer which makes your task extremely difficult in a market where sports are more entertainment than sport. NA sports all have numerous lengthly breaks (which allow for entertainment opportunities and are also the reason Europeans find them boring) but are high scoring as oppose to soccer/football where a nil-nil draw may enthral the Euro fan (but is the reason North Americans find the sport boring). Unfortunately, you can't change the game (NASL tried and failed miserably). What you need to do is make the crowd part of the experience. This is quite novel but it can be done if you work hard with your supporter club(s). It also means attracting a fan that is willing to participate and not one who just wants to sit there and be entertained. In NA, this is very difficult but i do not see why if done properly the casual fan will not come out to chant, sing, appreciate the drumming, flares, etc. Even in the family section! If you can accomplish that, you will be onto something. If you don't, you will find it hard to sustain a casual fan's interest over tiem and they will probably wonder off to see the Toronto Rock, Marlies or perhaps pay the much higher ticket price for the Leafs and Raptors as these have a higher "entertainment value". I would suggest doing a few trips to see a number of the other MLS sides in 2006 to see what works there and what doesnt. But also trips abroad to Europe especially to see some Premiership, Serie A, Bundesliga, etc. matches...and some Championship ones too as that is going to be more the level and crowd size. Take what is transferable and modifiable to an NA audience and leave the rest (racist/abusive chanting, crap food, etc.). Whatever you do, don't transfer what you do with the Raptors to the soccer matches no matter how tempting it becomes....you will kill your hardcore fans and lose the casual fan anyway as if they want that kind of entertainment...they will go where its best (Rock for example) as there are many more breaks to fill. Players/Team: I would get a coach asap or at least some scouts. You should spend 2006 scouting all the available Canadian players whether that is USL 1 or in Europe, colleage, U20 side. There are many all around Europe and some will come out of contract this summer. You may want to think about signing a few and possibly loaning them out for the second half of 2006. Also, I would really try to get a couple of solid Canadian older professionals such as Radzinski or De Vos who are at the end of their careers but might be willing to come back home. They offer some name recognition and give you a core to build around. Anyway....just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fort York Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Hello mlsintoronto - My suggestion for a team name: Fort York. My reasons: (1) Before Toronto was Toronto it was called York, and known by the Fortress that existed and still exists there (altered) to this day. (2) The word "Fort" means strength in several languages including french, italian, portuguese. (3) Without becoming childish (e.g like the Mighty Ducks of the NHL) the name Fort York could be used for merchandising (the look I have in mind is of General Isaac Brock). - I would like to see the new Toronto team's colour be solid dark green. My reasons: (1) It would go with the military "Fort" theme. (2) No major club that I can think of is solid green so Toronto would be the first. I will attend games no matter what you call the team, but please don't choose a name that is childish. The Leafs are what they are partly (I think) because they tap into our sense of history and culture. I think that the name Fort York can be marketed in a similar way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 "The Leafs are what they are partly (I think) because they tap into our sense of history and culture." That's whay I fancy 'York Redcoats' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Do I really have to post that quote of yours again? And do I have to explain my change of heart of again.....welfare check stadium, without it, MLSE doesn't get involved Eddie Pope. Tony Meola. Star Power! The sad reality is this will have to survive on it's gate. There will be no crediable tv numbers. People in Montreal, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary or PEI won't sit down on a sunday afternoon to watch a sub par soccer product like MLS. They have better things to do. This is not Canada's team. Quebec belongs to the Impact. The Whitecaps rule BC. Toronto MLS won't even win Ontario. Nor will Wal-Mart Canada carry MLS Toronto scarves or posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 quote:Originally posted by G-Man And do I have to explain my change of heart of again.....welfare check stadium, without it, MLSE doesn't get involved So all of a sudden, everyone will think just like you, because you had a 'change of heart'? quote:Eddie Pope. Tony Meola. Star Power! These are the same people that were in the league when you went on record saying that you would drive (from outside toronto) to see 2 or 3 games. Even if you disagree with the way the stadium is funded, league personnel has nothing to do with that. So your views on the 'welfare stadium' as you put it were able to also influence your views on the players within a league that you stated you would support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 quote:Toronto MLS won't even win Ontario. Who is going to win Ontario then? The Ottawa Fury? The CPSL "pick your favourite ethnic group" teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly Who is going to win Ontario then? The Ottawa Fury? The CPSL "pick your favourite ethnic group" teams? I think he was talking about winning over Ontario fans. In any case, Grizzly this is just what we have been discussing elsewhere. You think it is right to slag a team that does exist, does have a following (and had a decent one until their nutty owner screwed himself and them) still has a strong Women's side, one of the better on the continent some would say, and has a good enough youth program to send a few teams to the Super Ys. And throw in the "ethnic teams" you so hate to boot, many of whom are producing young players for our pro sides and national junior teams. In the name of a team that does not exist yet, with no name, no social or youth program, you feel a need to crap on the Fury and honest sides that apart from it all contribute to soccer development, and are not asking for millions in public funds in doing so. This is what I have been calling lack of respect, sectarianism, a divisive attitude to anyone beyond Toronto (MLSE clique now attacking Ottawa, alert! alert!), and then you have the gall to come on wonder what I am about? In any case, I would like to see just one Voyageur from the TO clique tell this MLSE don that they might use their resources, CSA contacts and sponsor network to encourage the creation of a national club cup including other pro sides in the country, much like what we see in the US with the Open Cup. That is, if for marketing reasons they don't think it too risky to expose their MLS side to the other pro teams and rivals in Canada? Or is it, Grizzly, that you are telling us that the Fury should not even be given a shot at beating the future TO MLS phenomenons? Which brings us back to comments about TV interest and audiences. The MLS team would likely get much better tv ratings in a Canada -or Voyageur- Cup match vs. Vancouver or Montreal than against KC or Houston in regular season. But let's not insist on this as if done right, fairly, like in the US, it may mean having to beat the Fury or another PDL side along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 I know he means fans. G-Man makes broad statements providing any proof whatsoever. I personally think a great number of soccer fans throughout the country will follow the MLSE team. Being from Ottawa I support the Fury and am not attacking them nor the CPSL. However, all these teams have extremely small fan bases that are not going to effect MLSE support in the slightest and to suggest so is ludicrous. Most people going to Fury or CPSL games will support the Toronto team as their teams are playing in a division very far below the MLS level. You are mixing up the Ottawa Wizard with the Fury and there is no connection between the two. The Wizard did start to develop a significant fan base for a team at this level and playing in far away Carp but unfortunately the owner could not get along with the league. Even if the Wizard still existed I expect their fans would be among the most likely to follow and support the MLSE team. Even in cities like Montreal and Vancouver who do have teams playing at a level at least in sight of the MLS level and who do have significant fan support a large percentage of these fans will support or at least follow the MLSE team until their own team gets into the MLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. This is what I have been calling lack of respect, sectarianism, a divisive attitude to anyone beyond Toronto (MLSE clique now attacking Ottawa, alert! alert!), and then you have the gall to come on wonder what I am about? Grizzly is from Ottawa. And please, please show me ONE example of anyone from Toronto (or the 'MLSE clique' as you've now called us) attacking any other cities. Do not confuse this with defending ourselves against insecure board members from outside Toronto who feel it is their God-given right to slag off toronto at any given opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Just to add something I forgot, it is your ally G-Man who continually has made posts criticizing and ridiculing the Ottawa Fury for their poor level of play and the small crowds they get. Everyone of the "Toronto clique" has been very supportive of the efforts made by the Fury as am I. Even the Fury management would probably find any suggestion that their fan base will be competition with the MLS Toronto fan base ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. In any case, I would like to see just one Voyageur from the TO clique tell this MLSE don that they might use their resources, CSA contacts and sponsor network to encourage the creation of a national club cup including other pro sides in the country, much like what we see in the US with the Open Cup. Head over to the bigsoccer.com thread then, as several of us on this board had already discussed this possibility of the Cup there before the thread even started here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly Just to add something I forgot, it is your ally G-Man who continually has made posts criticizing and ridiculing the Ottawa Fury for their poor level of play and the small crowds they get. Everyone of the "Toronto clique" has been very supportive of the efforts made by the Fury as am I. Even the Fury management would probably find any suggestion that their fan base will be competition with the MLS Toronto fan base ridiculous. Currently the MLS Toronto has about the same fan base as the Fury. It also lags far far behind the Impact and Whitecaps. I doubt you'll see bus loads of people making day trips to Toronto to see the MLS. And if you do believe that people will orgainise bus trips to see MLS soccer, then you're being ridiculous. The Raptors aren't Canada's basketball team simply because they're the only NBA team in the country. They're a Toronto team. And MLS Toronto will siply be a Toronto based MLS team and not Canada's team. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble on that. I have never ridculed the Fury's level of play. I have some concerns about the whole youth program and it's costs compared to it's results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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