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Toronto MLS research


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My .02 cents regarding the colour, even though it may have about the same impact as sending a thimble full of plutonium into the sun, is to go with the dukla prague home jersey colours:

4015_m.jpg

Burgundy and yellow. Or, if you want to flip it, have yellow and burgundy. I don't think it's anything too ugly or garish that MLSE would want to change after some years, such as phasing out the purple raptors uni. It would look cool with black shorts.

I don't mind stripes either, though I'd go with the vertical instead of horizontal. Again, a yellow red-ish scheme, this is Lens' home jersey:

rc-Lens-home-jersey-05-06-icon-b.jpg

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quote:Originally posted by DJT

<mod> RealGooner is correct. Please G-Man and any others, just stay out of it if you can't follow what RealGooner says. </mod>

I think asking questions about the stadium deal (which he hasn't answered) is fair game. I think it's rather obvious that MLSE wouldn't have touched this soccer idea without the huge donation for the stadium and the exclusive right to host other events and to put a bubble over it in the winter to run frisbee football leagues.

Having lived through the NASL, CSL, APSL, ASL, CPSL, NPSL and god knows what, I think before any soccer fans buy in, they should know just how committed to the sport MLSE is. It's not enough to say Hi. I also worry about the way they've destroyed basketball in this country. Last night at the ACC the raptors drew 13K and the team is a joke.

Lets not forget what Molson's (huge corporation) did to soccer in Montreal when they folded the Manic. The city bought in, crowds were better than anything the MLS get and then they bailed. It took 20 years to get it back to decent health.

2 years, until head office said "enough"

I also think poking fun of the scarf wearing crowd is legitimate as well. It's been pointed out that catering to 500 "supporters" in a city of close to 5 million is a disaster. The team has to reach out to the suburban soccer family. The ones that will bring little jimmy and janey out for the day for under 80 bucks- hotdogs and pennant included.

I do like what the A-league down under is doing. I suggest to msltoronto that he book a ticket and fly out there and speak to some people who have done it right and not look to the Metrostars or the Wiz or Houston 1836.

So dear MOD, I make fun of it, as I do want it to succeed.

But we've all seen it before. And until Toronto develops as a soccer market in a natural progressive way, like Montreal or Vancouver has, slowly but surely, trying to artificially grow a following for the sport by throwing stadiums at it, or gimmick euro names it'll always be domed to fail. Just as the NASL did and the Raptors are doing right now. Let's face it. Toronto had no Basketball tradition before the Raptors showed up and not for free corporate tickets, most people wouldn't spend the cash to go to games.

Love of the game takes generations, and that hasn't happen in Toronto. So I hope MLSE has the kind of money that Hunt has to develop that love over 20 years. Is Nashville a better hockey market than Halifax? Simply cause it has an NHL team? Of course not. And Toronto at this point is to pro soccer what Nashville is to hockey.

So does the corporation you work for MLStoronto have that kind of commitment to the game. Are you ready to lose 3-5 million a year for 20 years before breaking even?

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Lessons Learned: If you give Gman an opportunity he can express a valid opinion! Thanks for your feedback GMan - seriously. I don't speak for the company here - I hope I've made that clear...but I have no illusions about the instant success of this thing. If I was operating under that type of assumption, I wouldn't be here.

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by the way mlse guy do you think the stadium will be ready on time.

i thought it was supposed to start in january to be ready on time.

i would hate it not to be ready on time or we will be the laughing stock of the world after all the under 20 world champ. was awarded to a parking lot at the ex lol.

please tell me its going to be ready on time thanks.

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quote:Originally posted by G-Man

I think asking questions about the stadium deal (which he hasn't answered) is fair game.

Yes it certainly is. But we are asking you to have the maturity to address those concerns, or poke fun in an appropriate thread, which is not this one. Start another thread for that. Or send your concerns in writing directly to MLSE, as someone else did regarding the design of the stadium. MLSE actually wrote him back a letter, of which I have a copy. mlsintoronto is involved with the rollout of the team, and by his own admission (on BigSoccer) HE IS NOT INVOLVED WITH THE STADIUM SIDE OF THINGS So badgering him about that here is pointless. I believe you are intelligent enough to understand this G-Man.

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quote:Originally posted by G-Man

It's been pointed out that catering to 500 "supporters" in a city of close to 5 million is a disaster. The team has to reach out to the suburban soccer family. The ones that will bring little jimmy and janey out for the day for under 80 bucks- hotdogs and pennant included.

I do like what the A-league down under is doing. I suggest to msltoronto that he book a ticket and fly out there and speak to some people who have done it right and not look to the Metrostars or the Wiz or Houston 1836.

An honest opinion from G-Man. Thats all we're asking for. :)

PS, us "scarfers" are not in any way asking MLSE to cater to us exclusively. We are just asking that our concerns be considered along with everyone elses, something not currently being done by the Lynx or most of the MLS. Most MLS and USL marketing efforts do not reach out widely or effectively enough into the community, and their results at the gate have been middling as a result.

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The more I hear it, the more I like the simplicity of Toronto City.

Traditional, classy, and keeping with the theme that seems to be evolving in MLS.

My BS metre on "mlsintoronto" is WAAAAYY up BTW. Anyone who is really conducting market research would not do so on a discussion forum, where you can't learn about people's demographics etc.

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quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

My BS metre on "mlsintoronto" is WAAAAYY up BTW. Anyone who is really conducting market research would not do so on a discussion forum, where you can't learn about people's demographics etc.

Well your BS metre is faulty so you should have it sent for service and repaired. Four different people have already vouched for him and apart from this fact, why do people assume that this constitutes the sole MLSE marketing effort? If you wanted to reach out to the local soccer supporters, where would else would you go? Why not go on the net, when its effectively a free resource?

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quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

The more I hear it, the more I like the simplicity of Toronto City.

Traditional, classy, and keeping with the theme that seems to be evolving in MLS.

My BS metre on "mlsintoronto" is WAAAAYY up BTW. Anyone who is really conducting market research would not do so on a discussion forum, where you can't learn about people's demographics etc.

Please go back and read Gian-Luca and Seankeay's posts. They have privately spoken to mlsintoronto and have verified who he is. This is NOT OFFICIAL MLS Market Research. Its simply someone involved with MLSE planning who wants to hear what everyday soccer fans think.

Even if this were an elaborate hoax, it is beneficial to disscuss ideas because we have seen that MLS execs have begun paying attention to cyberforums of late (Houston 1836 anyone?). I am sure they would be checking us out at some point anyway, so why not give them something to think about? Now lets move on from this nonsense of BS meters please, its soooo yesterday now.

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quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

Please go back and read Gian-Luca and Seankeay's posts. They have privately spoken to mlsintoronto and have verified who he is. This is NOT OFFICIAL MLS Market Research. Its simply someone involved with MLSE planning who wants to hear what everyday soccer fans think.

Even if this were an elaborate hoax, it is beneficial to disscuss ideas because we have seen that MLS execs have begun paying attention to cyberforums of late (Houston 1836 anyone?). I am sure they would be checking us out at some point anyway, so why not give them something to think about? Now lets move on from this nonsense of BS meters please, its soooo yesterday now.

See I doubt that G-L man is a real person. I think he's a composite of various CSA wanna-be's.

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I can't believe how cynical this board has become. It's kind of sad. We'd rather bitch at someone about their credibility than offer some positive suggestions. This whole place has been in a snarky mood for more a couple of years (and I certainly have been myself). I think this guy is legit. Even if he isn't I'd rather just discuss what we think is important for Toronto in MLS to succeed rather than just moan at each other.

As far as selling the game, I don't think you have to sell soccer. as a sport There are soccer fans in Toronto. Lots and lots of them. You put a winning team on the field who play an attractive brand of soccer, I think the fans are knowledgeable enough to appreciate the level and quality of play for what it is and will support it if it is well promoted.

After putting a good product on the field, I think you need to make sure there's a good atmosphere in the stands. Working with the U sector on getting them a section where they can stand, drum and create atmosphere is a great start. Beyond that keep it simple. There are no breaks in a soccer game — so there should be no promo spots between 1-45 and 46-90. Pass out shirts as people go in, have a fuzzy something greeting the kids at the gate or roaming the concourse, but trust that the game on the field is good enough to sell itself without gimmicks. In short I wouldn't treat this any differently than the Leafs — you wouldn't start launching t-shirts into the crowd during a play in a Leafs game, don't do it here. The people there are there for the game. They should be here as well.

I've never lived in Toronto, so I'll let the people who do weigh in on going after ethnic markets and the value of double-headers. I think courting a specific ethnic market with players is a dangerous tactic. There's no better example than Raul Diaz Arce with DC United, says SoccerTimes: Diaz Arce was United's leading scorer in the 1996 and 1997 with 38 goals in 50 matches over the two seasons. After the 1997 season, in a controversial move, Diaz Arce was traded to the New England Revolution in a salary-cap-driven move that caused protests and resentment from the considerable Washington Salvadoran population.

In short they didn't become DCU fans, they became Arce fans and gleefully cheered against the hometown team whenever he came back.

I think given the rules MLS has given Toronto there's no reason they can't win right away. Especially if you use your extra SI American slots to get proven players and draft well in the SuperDraft. I think stocking the developmental roster with good young Canadian players is a must. Beyond that I think the priority has to be getting the best players you can find with your cap space and don't worry about where they're from. The young Canadian players will emerge into the lineup in a year or two, but to start focus on talent and not where they're from. If you want a fast-track into becoming the worst team in MLS follow Chivas' lead from last year and focus on ethnicity and marketability of a player and don't worry at all about talent.

Name: I'm not sold on the need for a nickname. I like Toronto United, but SC Toronto, or FC Toronto are fine as well. I don't mind Toronto City either. Their traditional and relatively non-country specific. More so than Inter (which I don't mind actually)

Colours: how does blue and more blue grab you? MLS has too many blue teams. But I think blue is necessary. It says Toronto to me. Double-blue doubly so.

Marketing: I had an image of matching posters. All with the distinctive Toronto City/United/FC/Whatever mark. They says something like: "One city. One game. United." or "Your city, Your team. Toronto City." Something like that. But each one the same, but each in a different language.

I like the idea of street teams. Kids who poster (though not over-zealously) neighbourhoods. Hit events. Pass out stickers. Generally these are younger kids who are into representing the team and will do low level work for comp tickets. I think there's still use for street-level marketing.

Team emblem: I have an idea. If I can render it half-decently I'll e-mail it to you.

In closing if you ever play canned music, I think you should only play "Teenage Suicide (Don't Do It)" by Big Fun.

Thanks for stopping by and listening to this.

cheers,

matthew

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quote:Originally posted by matthew

I can't believe how cynical this board has become. It's kind of sad. We'd rather bitch at someone about their credibility than offer some positive suggestions. This whole place has been in a snarky mood for more a couple of years...

I really hope this MLS adventure gives us all mood a lift. Soccer badly needs a boost in Canada.

quote: I think courting a specific ethnic market with players is a dangerous tactic....In short they didn't become DCU fans, they became Arce fans and gleefully cheered against the hometown team whenever he came back.

This is a good point, one that I agree with. Ethnic outreach should NOT extend to player policy. I have no problem with Korea/Portugal or Whatever Day, wherein Benfica Reserves play an Ontario age-group select team in a double header or something. But for the feature match put the best talent out there with an emphasis on Canadian players, regardless of their heritage.

quote:If you want a fast-track into becoming the worst team in MLS follow Chivas' lead from last year and focus on ethnicity and marketability of a player and don't worry at all about talent.

Amen

quote:Marketing: I had an image of matching posters. All with the distinctive Toronto City/United/FC/Whatever mark. They says something like: "One city. One game. United." or "Your city, Your team. Toronto City." Something like that. But each one the same, but each in a different language.

Amen again !

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quote:Originally posted by matthew

I can't believe how cynical this board has become. It's kind of sad. We'd rather bitch at someone about their credibility than offer some positive suggestions. This whole place has been in a snarky mood for more a couple of years (and I certainly have been myself). I think this guy is legit. Even if he isn't I'd rather just discuss what we think is important for Toronto in MLS to succeed rather than just moan at each other.

As far as selling the game, I don't think you have to sell soccer. as a sport There are soccer fans in Toronto. Lots and lots of them. You put a winning team on the field who play an attractive brand of soccer, I think the fans are knowledgeable enough to appreciate the level and quality of play for what it is and will support it if it is well promoted.

After putting a good product on the field, I think you need to make sure there's a good atmosphere in the stands. Working with the U sector on getting them a section where they can stand, drum and create atmosphere is a great start. Beyond that keep it simple. There are no breaks in a soccer game — so there should be no promo spots between 1-45 and 46-90. Pass out shirts as people go in, have a fuzzy something greeting the kids at the gate or roaming the concourse, but trust that the game on the field is good enough to sell itself without gimmicks. In short I wouldn't treat this any differently than the Leafs — you wouldn't start launching t-shirts into the crowd during a play in a Leafs game, don't do it here. The people there are there for the game. They should be here as well.

I've never lived in Toronto, so I'll let the people who do weigh in on going after ethnic markets and the value of double-headers. I think courting a specific ethnic market with players is a dangerous tactic. There's no better example than Raul Diaz Arce with DC United, says SoccerTimes: Diaz Arce was United's leading scorer in the 1996 and 1997 with 38 goals in 50 matches over the two seasons. After the 1997 season, in a controversial move, Diaz Arce was traded to the New England Revolution in a salary-cap-driven move that caused protests and resentment from the considerable Washington Salvadoran population.

In short they didn't become DCU fans, they became Arce fans and gleefully cheered against the hometown team whenever he came back.

I think given the rules MLS has given Toronto there's no reason they can't win right away. Especially if you use your extra SI American slots to get proven players and draft well in the SuperDraft. I think stocking the developmental roster with good young Canadian players is a must. Beyond that I think the priority has to be getting the best players you can find with your cap space and don't worry about where they're from. The young Canadian players will emerge into the lineup in a year or two, but to start focus on talent and not where they're from. If you want a fast-track into becoming the worst team in MLS follow Chivas' lead from last year and focus on ethnicity and marketability of a player and don't worry at all about talent.

Name: I'm not sold on the need for a nickname. I like Toronto United, but SC Toronto, or FC Toronto are fine as well. I don't mind Toronto City either. Their traditional and relatively non-country specific. More so than Inter (which I don't mind actually)

Colours: how does blue and more blue grab you? MLS has too many blue teams. But I think blue is necessary. It says Toronto to me. Double-blue doubly so.

Marketing: I had an image of matching posters. All with the distinctive Toronto City/United/FC/Whatever mark. They says something like: "One city. One game. United." or "Your city, Your team. Toronto City." Something like that. But each one the same, but each in a different language.

I like the idea of street teams. Kids who poster (though not over-zealously) neighbourhoods. Hit events. Pass out stickers. Generally these are younger kids who are into representing the team and will do low level work for comp tickets. I think there's still use for street-level marketing.

Team emblem: I have an idea. If I can render it half-decently I'll e-mail it to you.

In closing if you ever play canned music, I think you should only play "Teenage Suicide (Don't Do It)" by Big Fun.

Thanks for stopping by and listening to this.

cheers,

matthew

Simply put, this is the best post I've read on this forum in the last couple of years. Not only does it address the perpetual nastiness that has been prevelant on this board for the past couple of years, but it lays out my thoughts on MLS Toronto just about perfectly.

Thanks for this Matthew.

Cheers.

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quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

What would you replace the black with? Navy, Royal blue or something I guess?

How about a variation on the Blackburn kit: Instead of Royal Blue and white halfs, do navy blue and light blue halves, with white shorts and navy socks.

thats actually dark blue, and yea id put a shade of blue closer to what the maple leafs wear, though navy works as well. must say i didnt know what the blackburn kit looked like, so i had to look it up:

Steven_Reid.jpg

dont like it myself, but both of these would be unique compared to what already exists in the MLS.

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as much as I acknowledge with blue being a Toronto colour...

what if it's another colour? I mean we are after all a multicultural city. Why can't we be a multicoloured city as well? We already have the parade [:P], Caribana is colourful as well.

Personally I have no problem with blue, but I would not mind one bit about another colour. Just as long as there's not more than two really.

but the team will not succeed or fail based on the colour/motif of the shirt.

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Guest silvaplate

60118701.gif

DiaRoma3rdB.jpgFor Away Kits, i think it should be a either the Arsenal Burgundy, or the Roma Orange. I'm leaning towards the orange.

Corintjersey2r.jpgAnd then use the burgundy or orange as the base colours with the Corinthians Kits. Or go with the orange base, and then burgundy pin stripes.

Santoscamisa2r.jpg For home Jersey's, this is the way to go. Either Black or Dark/Deep Blue stripes. I'm also big on the Blackburn Halves style. Either way is cool.

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Matthew, my sentiments dude. it gets pretty disheartening to read certain (broken record) comments over and over again and they call themselves soccer fans. the McClowns and Jerkins out there are laughing.

Anyways,

name; i really don't care. i have lived with Lynx for so long that the ownership just left such a bitter taste in my mouth and Lynx means to me, inability to promote soccer, the everything you shouldn't do and lets sell off players that have any hope of bringing some sort of excitement to the club.

therefore, City, Sporting, United?? (with who??), Athletic, Blizzard, Falcons, Shooting Stars, ThunderHawks, i don't care and please, no animals bursting out of soccer balls or a Mr. Bigglesworth copy.

i think it was rdroze, who sort of sums up my feeling. give it a PROFESSIONAL attitude. i don't want to hear players are left stranded to sleep in a bus terminal because the team was to cheap to fly them home. Basically, if the Lynx organization thinks it is a great idea or have done it before, don't consider it, do the opposite; ie; they hit the schools for mid-day matinees, then go to all the senior geriatric care units and wheel them to the games.

Players; stability and acquiring decent talent that will contribute to the lub on a regular basis, not for one game and then become the Garbage Man and none of this Brian Ashton legacy crap either. you are good, you are on the squad. you suck, off to the Lynx.

Kits; Obviously, blue and white, heck throw in a third colour for all i care (double-blue, triple blue, red, green, pink). JUST ENSURE that the kits are identifiable t/o the community and it remains the same for many years to come. Please, not Black and yellow, again, thats Hamilton, dem fightin' colours, btw TABBIES SUCK!!!!

Whatelse, Ultras section don't worry about funds, because have i ever disappointed you guys in the past??? (except the past two seasons with all due respect). All i ask from the ownership is not to hassle us during the game, with security or effin-fncking donuts or lil' tini-bopper cheerleaders trying to sell you their dance calenders every game. this group becomes very passionate and emotional t/o the game, we like to "STAND FOR 90" as we would put it and yes certain banners, flags and horns/drums are R-E-L-E-N-T-L-E-S-S-L-Y waved and played ALLLLLLL game long. yes, pyro at times are introduced because it sometimes adds to the atmosphere but safety has always been at the top of the list and if it were allowed (which i doubt) you can have your own security guy moniter the whole proceeding if it were to be displayed.

Finally, just say when the ducats are ready and i'm there in full force, baby. the Lynx lost my business, don't do the same.

PS- G-L, i trust you, this is legit because i know you as a stand-up guy and i never doubt anything that comes from your way (except that progressive stuff....ummm, has it??? [:P])

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