Jonathan De Guzman

[Daniel]

It really hurt Weah, Best, Giggs, Yorke, etc. to not play for big countries. Because I've never heard of these guys.

[bettermirror]

that was canuck oranje's point daniel.

national team affiliation has nothing to do with the big 4 countries bringing you into their league. they want quality, pure and simple.

[Guest Ed]

On the other hand, IF a player wants to appear in a World Cup, given the pitiful lack of focus and effort on the part of the CSA to provide such fundamentals as coaching and preparation, players such as Hargreaves, de Jong and de Guzman are well advised to look afield because they sure as hell won't get there with a Cdn jersey on. Unless we see a fundamental change in priority at the top, I would advise anybody with enough skill and a chance at another passport to go to just about any other national association you could name. The CSA is not at all interested in the big cookie known as the World Cup; they'd rather be somewhat competitive in the crumbs: U20's, Women's World Cup, U19's and the Beach Soccer World Cup. Some of these avenues do some good, opening up better career opportunities for those who have not ventured abroad, but the WC dreams turn to dust.

But I've got to admire Friend for speaking up, because I along with the rest of you here really do support and admire those few who make it to the top and wear our jersey with pride. Too bad they are left with this:

"And you could have it all

My empire of dirt

I will let you down

I will make you hurt"

[Daniel]

So Ed, are you *really* making beach soccer your next battlehorse?

[RS]

I believe he already has, Daniel.

[Grizzly]

I was impressed with Friend after the Jamaica game and am even more impressed with him now. Finally a player who has the guts to take the Whore to task. This is the right attitude for a national team player. I agree if he continues to perform like against Jamaica and establishes himself as a starting striker he could well be a future captain. Ed, Friend has the right attitude towards the national team and you and the Whore have the wrong attitude. You play for your country not for your soccer association. A prominent player should try to improve the situation as best as he can instead of jumping ship. I don't happen to like our current government or think that it is competent but that doesn't mean in the case of a war I would go fight for our enemy or whoever would pay me the most.

[SCF08]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

It really hurt Weah, Best, Giggs, Yorke, etc. to not play for big countries. Because I've never heard of these guys.

True , but Football players really want to establish themselves at the highest level possible. Only Dwight Yorke has played at a World Cup due to miracle coach Leo Beenhakker.

The rest of the bunch never had the chance to compete at the WC. Champions League football is fantastic and thats were the best football is being played but the World Cup is something special that everybody dreams about when they are young.

I personally think Canada can make the World Cup 2010 with ease if you can keep Jonathan de Guzman and Marcel de Jong. Along with Jacob Lensky who is a youth player at my beloved Feyenoord your nation has a fantastic future.

You just need to kick all the old guys out the team right now

Sandro Grande , Daniel Imhof , Thomas Radzinski , Patrick Leduc , Jim Brennan , Tony Menezes , Marco Reda

And get the likes of : Will Johnson , Jacob Lensky , David Edgar , Ryan Gyaki , Nikolas Ledgerwood , Michael Pereira

in the first team because you want those boys to be playing for you at the World Cup in 4 years time.

[Canuck Oranje]

I agree on Friend. However, I was also impressed with McKenna (as a leader)with Cottbus on the weekend.

What we really need now is someone with the talent of a Jonathon de Guzman and the attitude of Friend (kind of a soccer version of Steve Nash). If Canadian soccer had some success and a face recognized around the world, most of our concerns about the CSA would fade into the background.

On National Associations, let's keep things in perspective. Most national associations outside of Europe would make the CSA look naive at worst. Most countries in South America and Africa succeed in spite of their national association rather than the good management at the national level. And they don't have the ability to extract money from youth soccer because there is no money there. In Brazil, if it wasn't for appearance fees and international marketing deals, its national association would not look all that different from ours (except theirs would also have issues around corruption).

Yes, the CSA's governance structure(with board representation coming from provincial associations) is cumbersome and it is administered by a bland and bureaucratic Executive Director more concerned with regional political considerations than success. Still, I am confident that things are going to change in spite of the CSA. This could be where MLSE has the greatest impact on Canadian Soccer (imposing a strong professional approach to the sport).

[Tyson M]

I just dont buy that its harder to qualify in CONCACAF than Europe for the World Cup. It is actually shocking we don't play in EVERY world cup. Theoretically we shouldnt even need these players who don't want to cap for us, we should qualify with more ease than HOLLAND, despite the fact they are football giants.

thats my 2 cents...

[hottoddy7]

Menezes and Leduc are not a part of our national program and we haven't seen imhof in a while either. Certainly nothing wrong with going younger and blooding a few of those guys but I don't know about a team that would be as young as you suggest.

[loyola]

Imhoff, Radz and Brennan should be kept around, if someone proves that he's better that's fine but until then I don't see why we should be ignoring a Bundesliga and a Premiership player.

If those guys gives any indication that they won,t be there in 2008-2009 I think we shouldn't be playing them. So far I haven't heard anything about that.

[bettermirror]

If JDG2 selects Holland it isn't for lack of trying. If Friend is trying to convince the elder Guz then other members of the nats are as well. If he selects Holland I fully expect him to be honest about why - and the fact he hasn't been saying "yes I'll play for Canada" and then goes and changes his mind ... this speaks volumes about his character.

A player I want desperately in our midfield - probably behind the strikers. A player who will do what he believes is honestly best for himself. This I respect. I'd cheer for him if he selected Holland, but I wouldn't be loyal to him in the same way I am any Canadian nat.

[Soju]

Just caught the Ed NiN reference. Saying people who play for Canada will inherit a pile of dirt just talks about what you did or didn't grow up dreaming of. I'd kill to wear a Canadian shirt in a friendly let alone qualifier. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who grew up being Dale Mitchell in backyard games alongside little Peles and Maradonas. Yes the CSA has a lot to improve but Underdogs can win big games, it's something we see all the time in sports. Great example by Friend. You guys notice anything about how our MNT is coming along? Chemistry, balls, commitment, skill. They're starting to gel now, good things will come with or without JDG2.

[SCF08]

quote:Originally posted by Soju

You guys notice anything about how our MNT is coming along? Chemistry, balls, commitment, skill. They're starting to gel now, good things will come with or without JDG2.

Your absolutely right. Im a Feyenoord supporter living in Holland and 5 years ago there was hardly a famous canadian in Europe. Now there are 2 at my beloved Feyenoord , there are about 7 canadians in Holland and a few more in Europe's biggest leagues.

[Guest Ed]

Well the sunshine is shining today isn't it??

The bottom line is that in 1993 or so, we had very few top level players in Europe. Bunbury, Miller, Forrest, who else? We came down to PK's against the Aussies for that extra '1/2' (or '1/4' really) spot that CONCACAF got.

In 1997 Bunbury, Forrest would be it I think. All the rest were playing lower divisions. And we did poorly in the HEX.

Our presence in Europe has been more and more high profile since then, yet we can't even make the hex. As I've said countless times on this board, we have the talent (players) to come out of CONCACAF. What we do not have is the preparation. Is that the players' fault. Is that the nations' fault? Whose fault would you say that is??? Answer that Grizzly, Soju and the rest.

[ubuntu]

quote:Originally posted by Soju

They're starting to gel now, good things will come with or without JDG2.

But it will be easier with JDG2 than without him, because we need that kind of player with skills and creativity.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Well the sunshine is shining today isn't it??

The bottom line is that in 1993 or so, we had very few top level players in Europe. Bunbury, Miller, Forrest, who else? We came down to PK's against the Aussies for that extra '1/2' (or '1/4' really) spot that CONCACAF got.

In 1997 Bunbury, Forrest would be it I think. All the rest were playing lower divisions. And we did poorly in the HEX.

Our presence in Europe has been more and more high profile since then, yet we can't even make the hex. As I've said countless times on this board, we have the talent (players) to come out of CONCACAF. What we do not have is the preparation. Is that the players' fault. Is that the nations' fault? Whose fault would you say that is??? Answer that Grizzly, Soju and the rest.

While I agree that we were lacking preparation in 2004 I was wondering what's your opinion about the improvement of our players and youth programs? Who's responsible for this?

I think we had decent prep in 2000 (2-3 friendlies before our first game and we also played Cuba twice) but we didn't have the players at that time even after our GC win, I wasn't convince we had the team to qualify.

I think the lack of preparation is obvious with the small number of friendlies our MNT has played lately but I hope the CSA will react to what FY said about this issue after he left. Also I think we can read something in the effort the CSA is doing with the 2007 U-20 WC and the improvement of our youth teams over the past 5 years. It's clear the CSA went the youth way ad they're thinking it will help them in the long term. I don't know what are their pl;ans but maybe they felt that they needed to sacrifice some MNT budget to help the youth in order for us to have better players?

Now that we have the players (we all agree that we are having a nice players pool at the moment with a lot of younger players who could be in this pool in 1-2-3 years) I think it's imperative that our MNT receive the help they deserve to maximize their chances of qualification.

[Guest Ed]

Well there is a big difference between 'improvement of our players' and 'improvement of our youth programs'. The first is a given; the second is debatable.

I would say that the CSA is certainly not responsible for the number of talented players coming out of Canada. It is directly attributable to more qualified coaching / scouting in our youth teams across the country.

Is the CSA responsible for the development of any of these 'high-profile' Cdn players?

Owen Hargreaves NO

Julian de Guzman NO

Jonathan de Guzman NO

Michael Klukowski NO

Lars Hirschfeld NO

Kevin McKenna NO

Tam Nsaliwa NO

Nik Ledgerwood SOMEWHAT

Dwayne de Rosario NO

Paul Stalteri NO

Atiba Hutchison MAYBE

Iain Hume NO

Jacob Lensky NO

Dani Fernandes NO

Of that list, Nik L can be considered remotely helped by the CSA as they did in fact have him on our national U17's on onward. Atiba H was also showcased by our U20's at a young age. None of the others were helped by the CSA in any way that I can see.

[loyola]

All the players above have been part of our youth programs (Stalteri was at Clemson University before the 1997 WYC and he proceeded to move up level after that). I'm not saying that the CSA is responsible for the success of all those players but those players got benefits from those expereinces with our U-17 and U-20's. The credits goes to a lot of players but it's weird that all of a sudden we have a lot of players having tryouts in Europe and getting contracts while at the same time our U-20's are qualifiying for 3 WC in a row.

Will Johnson Yes

Josh Wagenaar Yes

Hume Yes

Begovic Yes

Peters Yes

Edgar Yes

DeJong Yes

DeRo Yes

Stalteri Yes

Friend Yes

Bernier Yes

Simpson Yes

Haineault Yes

Brennan Yes

Imhoff (Ithink he played with our U-20's in Malaysia 1997, not sure)

Also guys like Nunez, KOA and JBB got tryouts after their showing with our U-17 and U-20 teams.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Our presence in Europe has been more and more high profile since then, yet we can't even make the hex. As I've said countless times on this board, we have the talent (players) to come out of CONCACAF. What we do not have is the preparation. Is that the players' fault. Is that the nations' fault? Whose fault would you say that is??? Answer that Grizzly, Soju and the rest.

I think there is enough blame to share around from the incompetent CSA to poor coaches to players not giving 100% and acting professionally. An awful large portion of the blame also has to go to players not showing up for games, ie. Radzinski for many years and even worse players who play for other countries, of whom your Calgary buddy is the prime example. Yet again the point is that if you want to make things better you try to make a difference instead of abandoning ship for selfish reasons. As far as your other post goes, Loyola rightfully points out that most of these players have benefitted from CSA training. Even those who have not benefitted from CSA training have benefitted from training in Canada not to mention all of the other benefits they have received from this country. I really do not understand why you have such a hard time understanding the concept that you play for your country not your country's soccer association.

[Canuck Oranje]

First, let's separate going to camps that prepare the youth national teams from NTCs.

It is my opinion that the role of these camps is to prepare a team rather than develop a player. If a player's development improves substantially from attending one of these camps, it doesn't say much for the training they receive at their home club, be it a Canadian NTC/youth club, US college or a European club. I don't think Hart or Mitchell would do much on the individual player development side at these camps. In any case, it would be down the priority list from player assessments (fitness and skill wise) and team development.

As for the NTCs, I would agree that they supplement the player development that these players receive at their home club. Again, the question of whether they have a significant role in player development would vary depending on the home club and coach of the player involved. But by raising the quality of players at a training session, it will have some impact.

Still, from a player development standpoint, the primary goal of Canadian soccer should be to raise the quality of player development available at club level rather than build the player development capability at the national level. I am not saying that there is not a role for the NTCs but for a country that is the geographic size of Canada, it is simply not cost effective.

In my view, the CSA's role in player development is setting national strategic direction and standards on coaching and player development.

That also means that NTCs should step back into the background when players are listed as selections for the National team and home youth clubs pushed to the forefront. Heck, there would be coup at the offices of the Brazilian national association if they tried to take credit for player development.

[loyola]

I think today's youth players are better prepared for a trial in Europe than they were 8-10 yrs ago because of the numbers of internationals games they've played in. That was my point and I think it contribute to the players development as well, their is a big difference between playing at Hartwick College/Portland University or playing in an international friendly against China or a WYC qualifier. The psychological aspect of the player development is helped with the number of games and the prepration they're getting.

I'm pretty sure it helped Josh Simpson and Josh Wagenaar having more than 17 caps at the U-20 level to get into Europe.

I agree that it's not the job of the U-17 or U-20 coach to work on skills with our players, they should be already technically gifted.

[Soju]

Ed of course we know the CSA are to blame for the failure to qualify last time around, and I have no love for the association at all. We failed as a direct result of lack of pre qualifying friendlies and looked like eleven strangers on the field. My point is that since that failure this team has played not only all those qualifying matches together, but friendlies against Wales, Northern Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Luxembourg, Austria, USA, Jamaica, etc. and I think we can clearly see they're playing like a more cohesive team now, hence my optimism about 2010.

[Daniel]

Wales was before Belize.

[Guest Ed]

Any optimism about 2010 is at best "optimistic", at worst delusional. We do not have a 'cohesive team'. Did you even watch the games? We played somewhat alright I guess against Spain and Austria but certainly looked poor against NI and Luxembourg. Against Jamaica, we did win but we have looked far better. Our defense was ragged and the midfield was anything but cohesive.

I do believe with the right preparation, a decent coach and some luck in the availability department, that we should have a much better qualifying campaign than for 2002 or 2006. But it is really too early to get optimistic.