Saputo playing Hard Ball

[Daniel]

The CSA has apparently given exclusive MLS rights for ALL OF CANADA to MLSE. That's what's on the line.

[François]

Just watched RDS with the report on the Montreal stadium situation. Saputo said that he's still going ahead with the stadium but wonders if 15,000 seats is to much if he stays in the USL. He was mainly upset with the CSA about the go ahead to the Toronto MLS team and the «canadian» exclusivity for domestic players. I guess the fact of losing some players to the Blizzard makes him think about what should be the next step. He's afraid that fans will shy away from the Impact games if we loose most of our starters...We'll see.

I still think that he wanted to be the first to be in MLS and be in control of the situation...He's not at the moment.

Francois Etienne-Corbin from RDS mentionned that the Whitecaps and Impact are suppose to have talks with the CSA.

[Kurosawa1555362267]

I don't get Joey Saputo's reaction over this. Yes he is going to lose a couple of players to the MLS, that sure. Yes that's going to take down the level of the montreal Impact, but I think that's a good opportunity for Montreal to give a chance to younger players. The impact don't have a clear player development structure in the province, they just take players from the provincial league when they are ready, it's a good opportunity for the Impact to do that job themselves to ensure they can get at least one or two good kid every year to replac eventual migration to the MLS by their better players.

Concerning the canadian exclusivity to The MLS in Toronto, I remember reading that this would be temporary. Am I right???

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Good heavens, first they complain because the CSA does not involve itself in the professional soccer scene by letting the Edmonton and Calgary USL franchises collapse for example, then they complain when the CSA does get involved in helping to land an MLS franchise for Toronto. Make up your minds guys!

Quit answering yourself Richard. You're embrassing yourself.

[RealGooner]

You are right Kurosawa. Don Garber says Toronto gets a limited duration exclusivity until Toronto is securely established. Then it falls off and Montreal and Vancouver can come into MLS.

[piltdownman]

quote:Originally posted by Kurosawa

Concerning the canadian exclusivity to The MLS in Toronto, I remember reading that this would be temporary. Am I right???

It sounds now like its not just 'exclusivity' but 'rights' to Canada. My wild guess is that to mean that if the impact or whitecaps what to join the MLS they will have to pay MLSE as well as their expansion fee. Much like Chivas had to pay the Galaxy $10 million if my memory serves me.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Quit answering yourself Richard. You're embrassing yourself.

The only people embarrassing themselves here are those who blame all the ills of the soccer world on Kevan Pipe and the CSA.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

It sounds now like its not just 'exclusivity' but 'rights' to Canada. My wild guess is that to mean that if the impact or whitecaps what to join the MLS they will have to pay MLSE as well as their expansion fee. Much like Chivas had to pay the Galaxy $10 million if my memory serves me.

$15 Million on top of the $10 Million expansion fee.

[aussoccerfan]

http://sports.sympatico.msn.ca/Home/ContentPosting.aspx?feedname=CP-AllSports&newsitemid=28356022

[Passive Observer]

After reading the article I understand Saputo's concern. I think the CSA needs to work out a deal with the MLS where MLS will guarantee expansion of 3 or 4 more canadian cities if those cities have a stadium and solid ownership group in place. Also MLS will allow the cities to join for the current expansion fee of 10M + the rate of inflation.

[piltdownman]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG$15 Million on top of the $10 Million expansion fee.

Well i was wrong about the number, but it still really sucks if this is what the MLSE has for Canada. So lets just say that the Impact and whitecaps want into the MLS in a few years, they each end up paying the MLSE $15m so they end up with $30 which will grant the leafs a profit fo about $10m after they pay their expansion fee and chuck of the stadium. Wow thats tricky if it is true. Tinfoil hat time but it would seem that they did the math and thus their contribution to the new stadium.

[Bill Ault]

Saputo vowed to keep his team together even though the MLS club may drive up player salaries.

"As a non-profit company, I can't allow the team to lose money," he said. "Our payroll with change, but we'll keep them here. "Gabriel Gervais had an offer to go to New England (of MLS) this year, and Greg Sutton, and they both decided to stay in Montreal."

This too is the reality - two players with a chance ot go to MLS and they didn't guess why because they would have probably made less money. It will not be easy for the BLizzard to pry all the players they may want from Montreal or Vancouver.

The bit about taking sponsors away from the Impact is a bit of a herring too -- which one of these is likely to sponsor a team in Toronto: Banque Nationale, Hydor Quebec, Vachon, the Province of Quebec, Reno Depot or the Saputos themselves? Bell might but Bell Quebec I believe is a seperate division (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Undoubtably I think that the Saputos and Kerfoot in Vancouver are two of the best things ever to happen to the game in Canada they have done tremendous things and will continue to do so they obviously have the passion for it. I think some of the passion is over flowing a bit on this the reality is Vancouver and Montreal IMO both wanted into the MLS and were problably realistically thinking 2009 - the MLSE / Toronto Stadium caught them a bit flat footed.

One further note can someone point to a MLS document that says Toronto will have territorial exclusivity requiring any expansion teams must pay MLSE for infringement - I have not seen or read this.

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I actually forgot about McGill stadium. In fact this is another very viable option even without natural grass because it has a new Field Turf surface and is having renovations scheduled to be complete in June 2007.

As regards to the me first, anti-Toronto people, while Toronto as Canada's largest city may seem to have more than its share of big projects, I am pretty sure that there is a large deficit between what Toronto pays in taxes to the federal government and what it gets back in terms of federally financed projects. In other words Torontians are paying far more to build projects in other cities than the residents of many of those cities. Vancouver may also be in a similar situation but I think both Moncton and Montreal are receiving far more tax revenues than they are actually paying in taxes.

The last time I saw these numbers, years ago. For every $1000 you pay in taxes the federal redistribution payments are something like this.

BC you get $600 back.

Ontario $ 1200.

Quebec $1800.

[Canuck Oranje]

Those numbers are completely wrong. Ontario definitely pays more in federal tax than it receives in federal payments and the gap is enormous. If you believe the Premier, it totals $23 billion annually. That means, if 20,000 people show up at the new stadium, they represent enough tax imbalance to pay the full gov't funding used for the stadium in one year.

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

The last time I saw these numbers, years ago. For every $1000 you pay in taxes the federal redistribution payments are something like this.

BC you get $600 back.

Ontario $ 1200.

Quebec $1800.

[piltdownman]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

The last time I saw these numbers, years ago. For every $1000 you pay in taxes the federal redistribution payments are something like this.

BC you get $600 back.

Ontario $ 1200.

Quebec $1800.

Last numbers i saw weren't that bad. I think Newfound land is the province that really cleans up. They get back over twice what they put in. Alberta on the other hand has it the other way.

[Cheeta]

The bulk, and I mean the bulk, of equalization payments payed to Canada's have not provinces comes from revenues collected in the province of Ontario. Per capita Alberta pays a higher rate but since there are roughly 4x as many people living in Ontario as there are in Alberta, Ontario in total dollars is certainly winning that race. And doing it without oil revenues.

Depending who's counting what beans, Quebec has long been the biggest winner though I'm not sure if that's true the last few years.

Roughly a 3rd to a quarter of Manitoba's provincial budget comes directly from subsidies from the Crown. More than 2 billions per year. Manitoba however is (or was) near the bottom of the list in provinces in total dollars (and per capita) spending by the federal goverment in spite of this large subsidy.

If I'm not mistaken, Saskatchewan may soon be paying INTO the federal equalization program. Go figure.

Would be realy interested in seeing the latest numbers.

I'm sure everyone will be happy to know that the federal Liberal goverments of the past decade or so have paid down about 60 billion dollars of federal dept. Half of that however was drawn from your Employment Insurance premiums. You know EI? That revenue neutral program which has turned into a shadow tax?

Oh yeah. And unless my memmory has gone totaly bannanas you may be interested to know the federal surplus this year, so far, is over 8 billions and counting while the US is in the red for 2005 to the tune of nearly half a trillion dollars and climbing.

Think of it. In one fiscal year the US of A will run up a dept which may exceed Canada's combined federal deficeits of the last 140 years. This on top of a $350 billion dept for 2004.

Mind boggling numbers. Simply mind boggling.

Anyone wanna guess if Alberta's provincial surplus will exceed the federal surplus this year?

Sorry. Too many Guinness. I return you to your regularly scheduled program.

[DoyleG]

You forgot the CPP: Canada's Largest Pyramid Scheme.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

It sounds now like its not just 'exclusivity' but 'rights' to Canada. My wild guess is that to mean that if the impact or whitecaps what to join the MLS they will have to pay MLSE as well as their expansion fee.

Man, now that would be crazy.

The CSA allows MLS to "financialy punish" potential future franchises in Canada while rewarding Toronto for being 1st? Even though the future franchise may be looking to set up 2,500 miles away from the Toronto market?

Every league has it by-laws but I just can't see the CSA allowing for something like that and they ultimately have the final say in if MLS comes to Canada or no and under what conditions. Would be sure political suicide.

Of course given how this whole stadium drama has played out....

It's a curious question. I was under the impression all that it origionaly ment was MLSE had 1st kick at the can in bringing MLS to Toronto. That was all. An import all though in that the CSA was courting MLSE dollars to get their stadium built.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

You have to wonder what real difference it makes to Saputo if his players leave for the MLS instead of, say, Sundsvall, Tromso and Viking in Scandinavia? That's where three of his best players (Gerba, Bernier & Grande) have gone. Actually I don't even think Bernier went to Tromso directly, wasn't he at Moss or Molde or Mildew or some other team in the Norwegian 2nd tier?

I guess he worries that if they play in MLS Toronto it will such a huge success that people in Montreal will follow & support Toronto instead of the Impact. I remain highly skeptical of that, I doubt most Impact spectators care if there's a team in another league playing in Toronto.

The best way to keep those players Joey - join the MLS.

Anyway, looking forward to RDS clearing this up.

I agree on the bit about having players signed by other teams. You know more about how binding a contract can be than I, in what cases it can be broken, but if the Impact would sign their guys in such a way as to not permit them to go when they please, requiring transfer fees or buyout clauses, then they would not have to worry.

If they don't want to do that, they should be ready for some opting for a better contract elsewhere, wherever that may be.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

The CSA has apparently given exclusive MLS rights for ALL OF CANADA to MLSE. That's what's on the line.

That is not correct. MLS has given an exclusive time window to MLSE for the Toronto bid. After that it could be prorrogated.

Furthermore, Garber implied that would probably give them first option on developing future franchise bids, such as in Van or Mtl. I am not sure that is a signed part of their agreement though, it would just be logical in a league with that ownership structure to allow the TO owner to at least give a try at other Canadian franchises. But I seriously doubt they have even signed that, it would be a question of intentions or future considerations.

[Canuck Oranje]

I think from what I read, exclusivity of the MLSE franchise to Canada ends in 2009. I also recall Garber in a news report stating that it had a limited time frame for exclusivity.

On another note, I haven't heard Saputo nor Lenarduzzi slag MSLE. Rather their target seems to be the CSA. I think both see MLSE as a potential partner down the road. Also MLSE is a play thing of some money men so if you are businessmen (read Saputo family), it is probably better to leave them out of the mudslinging.

Ironically, I am thinking that the CSA is getting too much credit for pulling this off. My sense is that the CSA's role has been limited to cheerleader and host to the WYC in 2007. The recipient of the the government funding is no doubt the City of Toronto because they are the ultimate owners of the stadium.

Those funds, I guess, are coming out of infrastructure funds earmarked for Toronto anyway because it seems that there is little trouble moving them from one public entity to another (U of T to York U to the City). From my experience, it is incredibly difficult to get funds out of gov't if there is no program budget let alone change the applicant repeatedly. In other words, Toronto gets money for a stadium instead of a library. But I have no knowledge of this particular case.

[mcgill]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

I'm sure some of my friends in Winnipeg will have a chuckle at this. What is happening to Montreal and Vancouver with the CSA is exactly what Montreal, Vancouver and the CSA did to the Winnipeg Fury, North York Rockets and the CSL in 1992 when the APSL came calling.

Maybe that is what worries Saputo ? Maybe he remembers how championship clubs like the Winnipeg Fury had all their professional contracts ruled void by the CSA, so that clubs like Montreal and Vancouver could load up for the big, new, shiny American league, while clubs like the Winnipeg Fury had their roster stolen from under their nose for nothing.

This is not correct. Someone called the new stadium "stade cheese" in reference to Saputo, this is disrespectful but it happens in hot discussions like this one but what you say is untrue and this is really unfair to discredit someone using wrong or partial informations.

First, remember that Montreal was not even considerered by the APSL. In 1992, APSL organised the "Professionnal Cup" to test the markets in Canada. They invited their five teams of course plus one indoor team plus Toronto and Vancouver. Toronto declined so they invited the Montreal Supra.

The owner of the Supra who was also president of the CSL at these dying moments of the league could not join the APSL, question of money so the Saputos came in with a new franchise. If the Saputos would not have come in, pro soccer was dead in Montreal. The CSL was dead regardless of the Montreal Supra with Vancouver and Toronto Blizzard joining the APSL.

In 1993, the Impact had 3 players from the rest of Canada: DeVos, Dasovic and Lopez who played only 6 games so which players did they steale and remember what DeVos said when he was transferred in Europe and the Impact got a part of the transfer fees, he said he was grateful to the Impact for giving him his first chance.

So Saputo's move was a plus for soccer in this country. The result was three pro teams left instead of two.

Winnipeg Fury joined the CNSL for one year and folded.

[Gian-Luca]

That CP article posted makes it sound even more to me like Saputo wants that $27 million to go to Montreal, and not to Toronto, for the sake of the stadium.

This part in particular: "Saputo would like the federal government to reconsider it's $27 million investment in the Toronto stadium. He said Pipe has convinced the federal government that the stadium is necessary to stage the world under-21 tournament in 2007.

"That's just not true," Saputo said. "I'd like the government to put a hold on it for the time being - to say 'let's study it.' "

Yeah, lets hold on to if for another two years, when the WYC is over. That will really help a lot of people.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by mcgill

First, remember that Montreal was not even considerered by the APSL. In 1992, APSL organised the "Professionnal Cup" to test the markets in Canada. They invited their five teams of course plus one indoor team plus Toronto and Vancouver. Toronto declined so they invited the Montreal Supra.

The owner of the Supra who was also president of the CSL at these dying moments of the league could not join the APSL, question of money so the Saputos came in with a new franchise. If the Saputos would not have come in, pro soccer was dead in Montreal. The CSL was dead regardless of the Montreal Supra with Vancouver and Toronto Blizzard joining the APSL.

In 1993, the Impact had 3 players from the rest of Canada: DeVos, Dasovic and Lopez who played only 6 games so which players did they steale and remember what DeVos said when he was transferred in Europe and the Impact got a part of the transfer fees, he said he was grateful to the Impact for giving him his first chance.

So Saputo's move was a plus for soccer in this country. The result was three pro teams left instead of two.

Winnipeg Fury joined the CNSL for one year and folded.

That would confirm what I have heard, perhaps Frank ( who has posted here on this forum in the last couple of days) can confirm this. I seem to recall him having mentioned to me and several other TO areas supporters that it was the Whitecaps who were the first to bolt to the APSL. Montreal with Saputo then followed. Correct me if I am wrong Franky

[Udinese]

quote:Originally posted by mcgill

The CSA doesn't care about the development of soccer in Canada or the teams that are playing in Canada. Their only concern is the National team.

Look at the results. You can not build a successful national team if you do not have club teams in your country.

Yallop took 6 players from the Impact in the middle of the season while the Impact had games in the USL. Now, CSA will put a MLS franchise in Toronto with the funds of all Canadians (our taxes) when this city is the less supportive among the three Canadian cities with teams in USL.

Why would Saputo keep on investing his time and his family's own money?

Saputo sounds like the kid who took the ball and went home. What a Crybaby. Grow up sucky boy Saputo.