Saputo playing Hard Ball

[Udinese]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Ummm.... was it not FIFA that originally linked the granting of the 2007 WYC to Canada to the construction of a new stadium in Toronto. How was that the CSA's fault?

"please, CSA stop being involved in everyhing"

Good heavens, first they complain because the CSA does not involve itself in the professional soccer scene by letting the Edmonton and Calgary USL franchises collapse for example, then they complain when the CSA does get involved in helping to land an MLS franchise for Toronto. Make up your minds guys!

USL failed in Alberta because of the Doyle G types that infest the west.

[Udinese]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

The CSA has apparently given exclusive MLS rights for ALL OF CANADA to MLSE. That's what's on the line.

Untill the year 2009. If you are going to post post facts.

[piltdownman]

I have only been speculating. This is based on nothing other than thw world 'exclusivity' has been subsituted by 'rights' in several new pieces and on this board. It 'rights' is the rigth world I fear that the scenario I mentioned earleir might be the case. It would really expain why the Whitecaps and Impact are really so pissed off.

[Udinese]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Quit answering yourself Richard. You're embrassing yourself.

The pot calling the Kettle black.

[Udinese]

quote:Originally posted by Passive Observer

After reading the article I understand Saputo's concern. I think the CSA needs to work out a deal with the MLS where MLS will guarantee expansion of 3 or 4 more canadian cities if those cities have a stadium and solid ownership group in place. Also MLS will allow the cities to join for the current expansion fee of 10M + the rate of inflation.

The rights are to 2009. Are you all to simple to get this. Its for a 2 year period.

[Udinese]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

The last time I saw these numbers, years ago. For every $1000 you pay in taxes the federal redistribution payments are something like this.

BC you get $600 back.

Ontario $ 1200.

Quebec $1800.

You are a fool. Ontario pays 23 Billion to Feds more than it gts back. Thats a fact.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by mcgill

This is not correct. Someone called the new stadium "stade cheese" in reference to Saputo, this is disrespectful but it happens in hot discussions like this one but what you say is untrue and this is really unfair to discredit someone using wrong or partial informations.

First, remember that Montreal was not even considerered by the APSL. In 1992, APSL organised the "Professionnal Cup" to test the markets in Canada. They invited their five teams of course plus one indoor team plus Toronto and Vancouver. Toronto declined so they invited the Montreal Supra.

The owner of the Supra who was also president of the CSL at these dying moments of the league could not join the APSL, question of money so the Saputos came in with a new franchise. If the Saputos would not have come in, pro soccer was dead in Montreal. The CSL was dead regardless of the Montreal Supra with Vancouver and Toronto Blizzard joining the APSL.

In 1993, the Impact had 3 players from the rest of Canada: DeVos, Dasovic and Lopez who played only 6 games so which players did they steale and remember what DeVos said when he was transferred in Europe and the Impact got a part of the transfer fees, he said he was grateful to the Impact for giving him his first chance.

So Saputo's move was a plus for soccer in this country. The result was three pro teams left instead of two.

Winnipeg Fury joined the CNSL for one year and folded.

I used "stade cheese". If Saputo brewed beer I would have called it Stade Keg. It's not unfair, it's what Sapato make sit's coin from. Stop being a PC's twit. I also used it as, like the Oylmpic Stadium and the Rogers Centre, it will leave a lasting smell as it will be way over budget and the tax payer will pick up the bill.

Just as they did when the Impact folded a few years ago....

As for the rest..I'll let those that made those statements, reply.

[Gordon]

Equalization in Canada amounts to approximately 11 billion dollars this year. Paid by Ontario and Alberta. All other amounts are nonsensical countings by premiers with an agenda. It allows the premier of Quebec to argue that Quebec pays more than they get back despite recieving nearly $5 billion in equaliztion, and Ontario's claim of $23 Billion is equally ridiculous. If Ontario was to ever provide an itemized list of the alleged $23 Billion pretty much everyone in Canada much mirth would be shared by all in the land. Undoubtedly there is considerable "creativity" in determining what counts as a dollar spent for Ontario versus a dollar spent anywhere else.

And of course, it is all irrelevant to the issue at hand. If millions are being given to one city for a stadium, there needs to be a compelling reason why similar amounts are not given to other cities. That reason may be simply and solely that the Government of Canada took the recomendation of the CSA who are the national governing body. Life is not fair, and while I think the whole MLS track is wrongheaded, the CSA is the body tasked with making those decisions. Distributing 2.7 million equally to 10 provinces for infrastructure development is almost certainly not the best bang for the buck. Especially in terms of developing infrastructure for the YWC 2007. But Saputo and anyone else who cares to, is certainly within their rights to question the decision.

[Canuck Oranje]

If you reread my post, I said it was calculated from the amount paid out by Ontario residents to the federal gov't less what it received in from the federal gov't in program payments for a fiscal year ending March 31, 2005 (that includes more than just formal equalization payments. As I also said, if you believe the premier. Then if you want a complete analysis of it, feel free to read Working Paper 8 of the The Institute for Competitiveness and Prosperity (a independent think tank in Toronto). There are different ways to calculate it but I am not going to get into that here. You can check it out yourself as it is online at www.competeprosper.ca

And if you don't trust them, you can check public accounts of the Government of Canada for yourself. They are after all audited and available to the public.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Equalization in Canada amounts to approximately 11 billion dollars this year. Paid by Ontario and Alberta. All other amounts are nonsensical countings by premiers with an agenda. It allows the premier of Quebec to argue that Quebec pays more than they get back despite recieving nearly $5 billion in equaliztion, and Ontario's claim of $23 Billion is equally ridiculous. If Ontario was to ever provide an itemized list of the alleged $23 Billion pretty much everyone in Canada much mirth would be shared by all in the land. Undoubtedly there is considerable "creativity" in determining what counts as a dollar spent for Ontario versus a dollar spent anywhere else.

And of course, it is all irrelevant to the issue at hand. If millions are being given to one city for a stadium, there needs to be a compelling reason why similar amounts are not given to other cities. That reason may be simply and solely that the Government of Canada took the recomendation of the CSA who are the national governing body. Life is not fair, and while I think the whole MLS track is wrongheaded, the CSA is the body tasked with making those decisions. Distributing 2.7 million equally to 10 provinces for infrastructure development is almost certainly not the best bang for the buck. Especially in terms of developing infrastructure for the YWC 2007. But Saputo and anyone else who cares to, is certainly within their rights to question the decision.

[RealGooner]

How much money did the Federal Government pour into Montreal and Calgary for their Olympics? How much is going into Whistler for theirs? But thats ok though, the feds have no right to spend a penny in Toronto ever. Yep After all the big projects across the country people are going to begrudge Toronto 27 million bucks for a stadium. The feds hardly spend any money on Toronto projects and thats a fact, so stop harping on the 27 million. The Feds earmarked it for a Toronto stadium only or it would be withdrawn, so the CSA had no authority to spend it anywhere else. Let Saputo go ask the Feds for money of his own.

[RealGooner]

How much money did the Federal Government pour into Montreal and Calgary for their Olympics? How much is going into Whistler for theirs? But thats ok though, the feds have no right to spend a penny in Toronto ever. Yep After all the big projects across the country people are going to begrudge Toronto 27 million bucks for a stadium. The feds hardly spend any money on Toronto projects and thats a fact, so stop harping on the 27 million. The Feds earmarked it for a Toronto stadium only or it would be withdrawn, so the CSA had no authority to spend it anywhere else. Let Saputo go ask the Feds for money of his own.

[piltdownman]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

How much money did the Federal Government pour into Montreal and Calgary for their Olympics? How much is going into Whistler for theirs? But thats ok though, the feds have no right to spend a penny in Toronto ever. Yep After all the big projects across the country people are going to begrudge Toronto 27 million bucks for a stadium. The feds hardly spend any money on Toronto projects and thats a fact, so stop harping on the 27 million. The Feds earmarked it for a Toronto stadium only or it would be withdrawn, so the CSA had no authority to spend it anywhere else. Let Saputo go ask the Feds for money of his own.

I can only speak for myself. And i'm not against the Toronto Stadium, unless the rumors are true about MLSE getting naming rights and such. I do not believe this is true though. However you can't really compare the money spent on the winter Olympics. There is a big difference between building a stadium for a pro sports team, and government funds going inot a speed skating rink or a bobsled run. There is no way a private corporation would ever build the stuff for the Olympics. These projects will be used for the games and then training for other future games, and thats it. I know you could argue that they are useless becuase of this, but this is why they must be built with government money. Most of the money coming to vancouver for the Olympics here in vancouver though will not go towards building but transportation. This includes the RAV rail line from Richmond/Airport to the downtown core and a new highway to Whistler. I am sure that if Toronto's bid had won they would have got lots of useless archery and judo stadiums.

Now again I am not against the government giving money for this new stadium. I do have a problem with the government giving money to Toronto if they won't even put in a good word about the other two stadiums being built. If the government is willing to put millions into Toronto so this stadium will be ready for the WYC then at least put some pressure on the city of Vancouver to get the stadium here built in time.

As for federal redistribution who really knows what the numbers are like. I'm sure every province spins those numbers.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

If you reread my post, I said it was calculated from the amount paid out by Ontario residents to the federal gov't less what it received in from the federal gov't in program payments for a fiscal year ending March 31, 2005 (that includes more than just formal equalization payments. As I also said, if you believe the premier. Then if you want a complete analysis of it, feel free to read Working Paper 8 of the The Institute for Competitiveness and Prosperity (a independent think tank in Toronto). There are different ways to calculate it but I am not going to get into that here. You can check it out yourself as it is online at www.competeprosper.ca

My response was mostly directed Udinese who feels the number is etched in stone and your caveats are duly noted. However, since you raise it, your "independent think tank" is funded by the Government of Ontario and its focus? Suprise! Ontario. And Working Paper number 8 comes with a legally binding agreement before one can even see it. Never encountered that before, not even at "independent" think tanks like the Fraser Institute or the Canadain Centre for Policy Alternatives. No plans to check that out further as a result.

$23 Billion is nonsense because there will nothing more than superficial discussion of the allocation of a variety of costs that are not specifc to a region i.e. the Military which is a national program. Nor will there be any sort of meaningful or rationale evaluation of the percentage of salaries for national or regional programs that get paid to Ontario residents adminstering those programs, even those the taxes those residents pay are counted in Ontario's "imbalance". Governments of all ilks and at all levels resort to this sort of misdirection regularly when under rpessure.

I suspect that if the Governement of Ontario wasn't having an extremely difficult time in balancing their budget we'd be hearing nothing of it in the rest of Canada. Now, I do not doubt that Ontario pays considerably more in taxes into than it gets out of Confederation. But the whole contry was set up to facilitate the economic growth of Central Canada and much of that legacy contnues today. The overall economic gains that have accrued to Central Canada as a result far off set whatever the real imbalance is between taxes paid and benefits gained. Not complaining about that either. Nationhood does not come with a ledger sheet as the only measure. The Government of Ontario used to get that, but I suppose its easier to bitch than to make the hard decisions required to balance the books. Or perhaps after seeing Alberta successfully re-write history with regards to the NEP, they figured they try the same themselves.

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

And if you don't trust them, you can check public accounts of the Government of Canada for yourself. They are after all audited and available to the public.

Thanks. Think I'll pass on that too.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

How much money did the Federal Government pour into Montreal and Calgary for their Olympics? How much is going into Whistler for theirs? But thats ok though, the feds have no right to spend a penny in Toronto ever. Yep After all the big projects across the country people are going to begrudge Toronto 27 million bucks for a stadium. The feds hardly spend any money on Toronto projects and thats a fact, so stop harping on the 27 million. The Feds earmarked it for a Toronto stadium only or it would be withdrawn, so the CSA had no authority to spend it anywhere else. Let Saputo go ask the Feds for money of his own.

I wonder how much coin the feds gave to TO during the SARS thingy. Or the last time it snowed (Army expenses)...or I wonder how much went into one Toronto's many failed Olympic Bids...or the Toronto Film Fest..or infrastructure money for that matter! (Pearson Airport or GO! Transit (I think both alone-combined- got 385 Million from the Feds in 2003)

And only a nutter would compare the Montreal’s and Calgary’s Olympic games to a single MLS franchise. Who in it's 19 home games might draw 100,000.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by G-ManAnd only a nutter would compare the Montreal’s and Calgary’s Olympic games to a single MLS franchise. Who in it's 19 home games might draw 100,000.

You really outdo yourself with every post, don't you?

What's next? Don't keep me hangin!

[Udinese]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

I wonder how much coin the feds gave to TO during the SARS thingy. Or the last time it snowed (Army expenses)...or I wonder how much went into one Toronto's many failed Olympic Bids...or the Toronto Film Fest..or infrastructure money for that matter! (Pearson Airport or GO! Transit (I think both alone-combined- got 385 Million from the Feds in 2003)

And only a nutter would compare the Montreal’s and Calgary’s Olympic games to a single MLS franchise. Who in it's 19 home games might draw 100,000.

Do you come in a stupider model. Such wa wa wa wa. Ontario buts in 23 Billlion more than it gets back. Simple.

[RealGooner]

Well, its all moot now. The feds gave Toronto 27 million for a stadium, and we are now going to build it. All arguments about the unfairness of Ontario getting any money from the feds just don't matter at this point.

MLS here we come!

[Guest Jeffery S.]

If Ontario puts in way more than it gets back and that affects its capacity to sustain industry, create jobs, provide social services and education, then you have a problem.

Then you can argue that a stadium is just another way to counter that discrimination, as it is an infrastructure that has the potential to generate economy.

In any case, the business of transfer payments must be considered thinking about just how that province generated sufficient resources for so much tax to be paid. And in Canada no province generates their economy and pays taxes on that in isolation.

Just think that part of what Ontario "puts in" is from car sales or products of so many other branch plant structures that pay their taxes in Ontario; thus you may also think that Ontario is, in some ways, paying taxes in function of the economic activity generated in its benefit by the purchasing power of the rest of Canada. Meaning that all it is doing is giving part of it back through transfer payments.

[Franky]

here is how it happened, after the 1992 CSL season.

Word leaked out about a MONTREAL APPLICATION FOR AN APSL FRANCHISE!!! in i think it was september/October, Guess who??? thats right good ole bleeding red/blue canadian/quebecois Joey Saputo.

Guess who approved the application to apply for an American Circuit, the 'lil snively Kevan Pipe and the CANADIAN SOCCER ASSOCIATION, thats right my friends.

In the CSL, Bobby Lenarduzzi gears went into motion and had this vision of reviving a form of the NASL. He convinced Joe (sssssss..sssssss) Parolini, to act upon that notion and before you know it, talks of a MERGER!!! rose up. Tony Fonatana of the North York Rockets and Ralph Cantafio (sp??) of the Winnipeg Fury were against it, along with Frank Aliaga Sr. of the Montreal Supra. Actually, he was outright denied VERBALLY by the APSL president at the time, name eludes me at the moment.

Therefore, the 86ers and the Blizzard were given the OKAY by the CSA to apply to an American cirduit that were literally on their deathbed. All they had left was three pro team Colorado Foxes, Tampa Bay Rowdies, Ft. Lauderdale Strikers with an expansion team in Los Angeles called the Salsa, LOL.

Basically, those three Canadian teams saved UNITED STATES OF AMERICA SOCCER. All they would of had were three pro teams left and L.A. were coming in, ONLY if, APSL can find other franchises. Now, the USA is far superior in soccer than Canada and where do we stand again???? USA has qualified for the '98, '02 and now '06 with the advent of MLS.

Frank Aliaga Sr. saw the writing on the wall and packed it in when he found out billionaire Saputo family were backers for the Montreal application.

A side note; Winnipeg, North York, Montreal found owners for CSL supported LOndon Lasers franchise and had applications from a chicago franchise which would have been named the Blaze and get this, a franchise from Minneapolis, yup, the MINNESOTA THUNDER. USSF balked at the notion, talking about being ironic with the CSA's leisure stance. THe London owners pulled out citing only three teams and Plan B, to merge with NSL Ontario/Quebec was not in their plans.

HUHHH....memories.

[Franky]

ohhh, may i add, the CSL received no recognition for establishing a strong MNT that nearly qualified back in 1993, losing out to Mexico with ONLY ONE SPOT FOR GRABS while the other was alloted to USA as host for '94. After that heart wrenching set back, they faced Australia and lost out on PK's 2nd leg in OZ land. No matter, they would have had to face Argentina!!! to qualify, forgeddaboutit.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Franky

here is how it happened, after the 1992 CSL season.

Word leaked out about a MONTREAL APPLICATION FOR AN APSL FRANCHISE!!! in i think it was september/October, Guess who??? thats right good ole bleeding red/blue canadian/quebecois Joey Saputo.

Guess who approved the application to apply for an American Circuit, the 'lil snively Kevan Pipe and the CANADIAN SOCCER ASSOCIATION, thats right my friends.

In the CSL, Bobby Lenarduzzi gears went into motion and had this vision of reviving a form of the NASL. He convinced Joe (sssssss..sssssss) Parolini, to act upon that notion and before you know it, talks of a MERGER!!! rose up. Tony Fonatana of the North York Rockets and Ralph Cantafio (sp??) of the Winnipeg Fury were against it, along with Frank Aliaga Sr. of the Montreal Supra. Actually, he was outright denied VERBALLY by the APSL president at the time, name eludes me at the moment.

Therefore, the 86ers and the Blizzard were given the OKAY by the CSA to apply to an American cirduit that were literally on their deathbed. All they had left was three pro team Colorado Foxes, Tampa Bay Rowdies, Ft. Lauderdale Strikers with an expansion team in Los Angeles called the Salsa, LOL.

Basically, those three Canadian teams saved UNITED STATES OF AMERICA SOCCER. All they would of had were three pro teams left and L.A. were coming in, ONLY if, APSL can find other franchises. Now, the USA is far superior in soccer than Canada and where do we stand again???? USA has qualified for the '98, '02 and now '06 with the advent of MLS.

Frank Aliaga Sr. saw the writing on the wall and packed it in when he found out billionaire Saputo family were backers for the Montreal application.

A side note; Winnipeg, North York, Montreal found owners for CSL supported LOndon Lasers franchise and had applications from a chicago franchise which would have been named the Blaze and get this, a franchise from Minneapolis, yup, the MINNESOTA THUNDER. USSF balked at the notion, talking about being ironic with the CSA's leisure stance. THe London owners pulled out citing only three teams and Plan B, to merge with NSL Ontario/Quebec was not in their plans.

HUHHH....memories.

Exactly my point Franky. The CSA essentially sacrificed the CSL to save an American League.

Yes, the Minnesota Thunder would regularly play exhibition matches with the Winnipeg Fury, and the two clubs got on very well. It was usually an even exchange of home and away.

It still happens today, as the Thunder regularly play exhibition matches with the top senior clubs in Winnipeg.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

Exactly my point Franky. The CSA essentially sacrificed the CSL to save an American League.

There is definitely truth to this point but the CSL was in deep, deep trouble at the time with no television deal and horrible economics.

Remember, the APSL was working very hard to become the new FIFA mandated 1st Division and while, in retrospect, this may seem a bit ridiculous, they were in the running. Wisely US Soccer did go the MLS route but if they had decided to go the otherway, the existing 7 APSL clubs and any new teams that came on board would have been the beneficiary of that very large World Cup nest egg.

I don't know about Bobby but Karsten was certainly hoping to take the Blizzard back to the top level and when it didn't happen, it effectively killed off the club once and for all although they did struggle through the season. Witness KVW's move of the team from Centennial to Varsity. It was a disaster. Attendance actually dropped although the soccer was much, much better. The entertainment factor was 2 and 3 times that of the old CSL.

Marketing was the big failure here in Toronto. Nobody knew about the club. It was a huge waste of time and money and many people, including friends of mine, were never paid what they were owed.

A sad end to the Blizzard.

We need to correct that.

[Gian-Luca]

This reminds me of another reason why its difficult to take those Lenarduzzi "It's too soon for MLS" comments seriously at all. 2007 is too soon for Canadian teams to join the de facto new NASL, but 1993 wasn't? How does that work?

What he really means its too soon because Vancouver's stadium won't be completed until 2009.

[Richard]

I remember attending a few Ottawa Intrepid CSL games in Ottawa. They played I think at a field called Terry Fox. It was really rather pathetic and the soccer was no better really than the recreational VMSL here in Vancouver. A few bleachers and a couple of hundred spectators if they were lucky. This was shortly before the CSL collapsed. RIP as far as I am concerned.

[Winnipeg Fury]

Actually when the CSL started it's first season in 1987, the general consensus was that the quality was far superior than anyone expected. Building on that, every season the quality improved drastically.

It is the same story with any new domestic league in the world, whether MLS or the Greek First Division. Like any league, there were strong teams and weak teams, but overall the league was improving drastically and in the final couple of years, was steadilly producing players for Europe.

In 1992 the CSL was in trouble because the CSA couldn't wait for it's demise. KP was anxiously waiting for the shiny new American product, just as he now gleefully waits for MLS. The truth to the matter was that internationally at this time, the Americans were no better than Canada, and their domestic game was no more solid. It's a result of this move that we now find ourselves light years behind the Amercicans both internationally and domestically.

The CSA did a great disservice to the soccer community of Canada, when it assisted in torching our domestic league (along with many individuals who were financial stakeholders), and in the process used our product to prop-up an ill American domestic league.

Ironically, it's this same lack of national vision that Vancouver and Montreal are now opposed too.