Wheelock's Article on MLS in Canada (Duck)

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The Hamilton Lynx?

Well they already stole Hamilton's colours but Hogtown can keep'em! Thunder over all.

Mike.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Wheelock never did his homework. The only thing he does is be a cheerleader for Toronto. He isn't going to let the reality get in the way of doing his work.

Interviewing the president of MLSE qualifies as doing ones homework on an issue involving MLSE. He states that MLSE is the entity currently "in discussions" with MLS. Nothing about participating in the construction of a stadium. While I agree with you that there is a lot hooey in the article, the general gist seems solid enough and if MLSE is indeed talking with MLS then there may be substance to the concept.

According to Andy Mead on Big Soccer, he was told point blank (by whom is not given) that Vancouver would be in the next round of MLS expansion. Could we see a Toronto and Vancouver MLS expansion?

[DoyleG]

He failed Gordon. Wheelock should know better to give background on MLSE instead of being a cheerleader.

MLS only cares about TO because they have cash regardless if they have fans or not. If MLS cared so much about making it's league sustainable, Vancouver and Montreal would be far ahead of Toronto. Yet the failure of the Expos and Grizzlies will scare off any intrest in those cities.

[DJT]

I can't see MLSE going through with this. They are not interested in soccer, they are interested in making money, that's it. There just isn't enough of a payoff here, if any at all.

[DoyleG]

Would've mad more sense if MLSE had built the stadium they had planned. Makes no sense at all in this case.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

He failed Gordon. Wheelock should know better to give background on MLSE instead of being a cheerleader.

I'm not quite sure I know what you mean here.

Perhaps we should wait to see what Peddie has to say in the interview before jumping to all sorts of conclusions.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

Thanks for answering the question and sharing the info, Luis.

By the way, how do you feel about the MLS coming to Toronto?

The name "Toronto Blizzard" is owned, at least in part, by Joe Parolini. Joe was involved with the CSL Blizzard and briefly with the APSL Blizzard. He was also involved with Canada's 1986 World Cup team.

I don't know what has happened to Joe's grand plans that included plans for a a pre-fab enclosed soccer stadium but when the CUSL plans dried up and blew away, the Blizzard concept also went by the boards.

As for people getting off their butts to go to see MLS, that is a helluva lot more likely than the Lynx ever filling Centennial Park on a regular basis.

db

[An Observer]

This is great news and I can only hope that Toronto gets an MLS side and provides another ten or twelve spots for Canadian players to develop rather than go backwards playing in cheap immitation of the A-league called the CUSL or CSL or whatever; Glad to see a major backer of Canadian sports in the MLSE take interest in a professional operation for soccer; this is exactly what we need; serious people with serious money believing they can make a profit out of soccer in Canada; i hope that Vancouver and/or Montreal can follow suit and we can finally put the last nail in the coffin of a Canadian league where we are likely to see Kamloops playing Regina in front of their moms and dads where the players get paid less than people at McDonalds and quit the game at 20 to work selling insurance.

[Luis_Rancagua]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

This is great news and I can only hope that Toronto gets an MLS side and provides another ten or twelve spots for Canadian players to develop rather than go backwards playing in cheap immitation of the A-league called the CUSL or CSL or whatever; Glad to see a major backer of Canadian sports in the MLSE take interest in a professional operation for soccer; this is exactly what we need; serious people with serious money believing they can make a profit out of soccer in Canada; i hope that Vancouver and/or Montreal can follow suit and we can finally put the last nail in the coffin of a Canadian league where we are likely to see Kamloops playing Regina in front of their moms and dads where the players get paid less than people at McDonalds and quit the game at 20 to work selling insurance.

Are you really convinced that 1 Canadian MLS team will help the development of our players??? I don't think so!!!! You are wrongly mistaken. This is perhaps the biggest mistake that Kevan Pipe is trying to feed down our throats.

[Canuck Oranje]

I think the only way forward is for Canada to have professional teams in a unified North American league for the following reasons:

1. The travel logistics are too complex for a start-up league in Canada.

2. Finding 10-12 wealthy individuals in 10-12 different Canadian metropolitan areas that have the passion or see a profit opportunity in Canadian soccer is almost impossible.

3. Finding 10-12 Metropolitan areas with suitable stadium facilities is also almost impossible.

4. Finding enough quality players to fill 10-12 teams at start-up and still have a level of play that would interest enough fans is impossible. Keep in mind that salary levels would never be able to compete with Europe.

Asking for a top quality Canada-only league is like a teenage son demanding a Porsche when the budget can only support a 10-year old Hyundai. It is a little unrealistic but I guess it is nice to dream.

I am not saying that the MLS is the best league, but right now it is only option out there beside the A-league.

However, there are some things that need to change. In my opinion, the sole ownership structure will ultimately slow its growth. As well, I think all domestic players (Canada and USA) need to be in one pool because issues will arise over time with them being separate.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Luis_Rancagua

Are you really convinced that 1 Canadian MLS team will help the development of our players??? I don't think so!!!! You are wrongly mistaken.

Did you miss the part where Observer mentioned Montreal and Vancouver?

No one here (not even the pro-MLS faction) thinks that getting one team will solve our problems, but two or three MLS teams are certainly better than three USL teams, no?

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

This is great news and I can only hope that Toronto gets an MLS side and provides another ten or twelve spots for Canadian players to develop rather than go backwards playing in cheap immitation of the A-league called the CUSL or CSL or whatever; Glad to see a major backer of Canadian sports in the MLSE take interest in a professional operation for soccer; this is exactly what we need; serious people with serious money believing they can make a profit out of soccer in Canada; i hope that Vancouver and/or Montreal can follow suit and we can finally put the last nail in the coffin of a Canadian league where we are likely to see Kamloops playing Regina in front of their moms and dads where the players get paid less than people at McDonalds and quit the game at 20 to work selling insurance.

If another CSL model is taking a step backwards, then trying another NASL model would also constitute a step backwards. Both failed, and if one were to conduct a survey of Canadian fans who are old enough to remember both and ask them if they had a choice which model they'd prefer, I'd put my money on the model with the Canadian identity. Kamloops and Regina are 100% Canadian, and although they might not have the money the Kansas City Wiz has, I'd rather support kids from small town Canada any day. Canada will never have a European league, or the money it takes to compete with US teams. These are facts that will never change, and that's a good thing. I hold a European Comminity pasport and a US Green Card (although it's pink now) and I could live in Holland and support Feijenoord, or I could live in L.A. and support the Galaxy. I refuse to do either. I'm grateful that I am a landed immigrant who lives in Vancouver and proud to support the Whitecaps and Canada. Just look at the division on this thread alone. Does it seem like a Toronto entry in the MLS would be identified with as Canada's Team. To Torontonians definately, others would support anything Canadian in a foreign league. However, there will always be many who will take note of Toronto's participation but never feel any alliance of any kind to this club. They might however, support a Toronto team that is representing a Canadian league in international competition. As for a Toronto team opening up 11 spots for Canadian National team players, what a joke. Just a cheap CSA selling ploy that only fools would buy into. How many Welshmen on the Cardiff team, in the example this clown gives us, play on the Welsh National team. He didn't even use the Monaco example in the French League. Do they have any Monaco born players on their payroll? But Mr. Pipe has many fools believing that the Toronto MSL team will field many of Canada's national team players. RRRRRRRRRRight, Kevan. Did Kevan Pipe get any written guarantees from the MLS that if Toronto gets a franchise, that they can use as many Canadian players as they like. Would the Toronto entry enjoy the advantage of picking their own players while all the US based teams in the MLS have their players assigned. RRRRRRRight, Kevan. Maybe, Kevan has an American grandfather and he can go be COO in the US.[}][}][}][}][}][}]

[Richard]

When the MLS started, many American players previously plying their trade in Europe and elsewhere did indeed return to the USA to play in the MLS where they could earn similar or even slightly less money but enjoy a better standard of living in their own culture. I am not sure that applies now to quite the same extent. The very best American players do still migrate elsewhere even if only for the prestige and experience if not the money. How many of the current startes of the US MNT play in the MLS?

[strobe_z]

How many times is toronto-based media gonna try and explain to the rest of Canada how a Toronto team playing in an American league is "Canada's team".

Just outta curiosity... are there ANY Voyageurs who live outside the greater Toronto Met. who think that a Toronto-based MLS teams would:

a)really be Canada's team?

b)really have any sort of impact on the CMNT (unless they actually do invert the import rules.. in which case I'll change "any" to "any major")

Now I can sorta understand how people in Toronto might be able to convince themselves that this would somehow be "good" for Canadian soccer.. instead of just "good" for the people of Toronto who'd get to support a home-town team in a perceived "superior" league.

Does any of that change the reality of Canadian soccer and our prospects of getting a home-grown domestic league? No. But the reality is that without participation by Canada's biggest city.. a true domestic league will never get off the ground. An MLS team in Toronto instantly creates a two-tiered perception which would somehow render a Canadian-only league impotent.

I also challenge anyone to show me how having 1-2 teams in MLB or 1-2 teams in the NBA has had any sort of posetive impact for Canadians in those sports... or done anything but eliminate the potential of having Canadian Baseball or Basketball leagues.

A CSL has to be nutured and grown.. not transplanted. The only reason that the CFL can stand up to the NFL in Canada is because of history - and that's still barely enough to keep a team in Toronto.. they still want the NFL. I might not be around to see a successful CSL in my lifetime.. but dammit I'm doing what I can to have my kids or grandkids enjoy it. I went to every Aviators game in the summer instead of just sitting at home and saying.. "Canada soccer sucks... I shouldn't watch".

Ok.. maybe that's more of a rant than I anticipated.. but there it is.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

1. The travel logistics are too complex for a start-up league in Canada.

I get really sick and tired over this stupid excuse. The teams in the east are going to be close enough in any event that more econimocal forms of transport will be used. Same in the Edmonton-Calgary corridor. Teams will only need to travel to other sides of the country and that can be reduced through travel bonds and travel partnerships.

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

2. Finding 10-12 wealthy individuals in 10-12 different Canadian metropolitan areas that have the passion or see a profit opportunity in Canadian soccer is almost impossible.

Why is that the sucess or failure of a league must come from within the communities themselves? A league whould be more than willing to have someone come from outside the community to invest. We see this in the Northern League baseball teams comming into Edmonton and Calgary. The CrackerCats are owned by Dan Orlich , a Florida biz man. The Vipers are owned by Winnpeg biz man Jeffrey E. Gidney.

And before people jump an complain that their is no comparison, running a NL squad costs far more than to run a soccer team in a Canadian league.

On top of that, look at ownership groups and community ownership.

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

3. Finding 10-12 Metropolitan areas with suitable stadium facilities is also almost impossible.

Any start-up to a league is going to be 8 teams, no more. Let's get that straight around here. 15 Million Canadians covered in 8 likely suspects.

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje4. Finding enough quality players to fill 10-12 teams at start-up and still have a level of play that would interest enough fans is impossible. Keep in mind that salary levels would never be able to compete with Europe.

Let's see: Top senior squads, youth squads, CIS, CCAA, NCAA, NAIA. There's more than plenty to find players, even local ones, to create a strong team in each city.

Why should we have to compete with Europe in salary terms? Quit the paranoia level.

[An Observer]

Robert, your logic fails in your first line "If another CSL model is taking a step backwards, then trying another NASL model would also constitute a step backwards". Both the CSL and NASL failed, but to determine where a North American model or a Candian model is best now is that you need to analyse the situation as it is.

Anyway, I have no time for argument (i have made my points before and the Doyles' of this world have come clause to providing a convincing argument to the contrary but only creating pipe dreams which are not worth the paper they are written on) and at the end of the day, the MLS supporters are looking likely to win out at the moment. When the Candian league supporters find 6 to 8 cities with suitable owners and facilities and corporate backing, I will take notice. Until then I will watch the MLS closely and hope for the best

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

I get really sick and tired over this stupid excuse. The teams in the east are going to be close enough in any event that more econimocal forms of transport will be used. Same in the Edmonton-Calgary corridor. Teams will only need to travel to other sides of the country and that can be reduced through travel bonds and travel partnerships.

Why is that the sucess or failure of a league must come from within the communities themselves? A league whould be more than willing to have someone come from outside the community to invest. We see this in the Northern League baseball teams comming into Edmonton and Calgary. The CrackerCats are owned by Dan Orlich , a Florida biz man. The Vipers are owned by Winnpeg biz man Jeffrey E. Gidney.

And before people jump an complain that their is no comparison, running a NL squad costs far more than to run a soccer team in a Canadian league.

On top of that, look at ownership groups and community ownership.

Any start-up to a league is going to be 8 teams, no more. Let's get that straight around here. 15 Million Canadians covered in 8 likely suspects.

Let's see: Top senior squads, youth squads, CIS, CCAA, NCAA, NAIA. There's more than plenty to find players, even local ones, to create a strong team in each city.

Why should we have to compete with Europe in salary terms? Quit the paranoia level.

I believe that if "the Canadian Soccer League" instead of the clubs in "the Canadian Soccer League" assumed the responsibilities of managing all of the travelling arrangements and expenses it would provide stability and a just manner to deal with this major expense. If "the Canadian Soccer League" calculated all the travelling costs of the entire schedule for each League club over the course of an entire season, and divide this total by the total number of clubs in the league, they could allocate an equal portion of this to be paid by each club prior to the start of the season. The geography of Canada and the population distributing would favour certain regions of the country more than others. However, since a league is a collective partnership, and each team depends just as much on all of their competitors to have "the Canadian Soccer League," the financial burden should also be bourne collectively. By "the Canadian Soccer League" purchasing all airfare tickets collectively, they might be able to negociate a discounted rate which would reduce each club's share of the burden. Maybe even a deal could be struck having the airline company advertise as the official carrier of "the Canadian Soccer League." By taking care of these financial arrangements at the start of the season, it would avoid the senario of clubs being unable to fulfil their travelling obligations during the course of the season and having "the Canadian Soccer League" assume this burden in order to complete the remainder of the season. Clubs could then focus primarily on their payroll and stadium expenses, which would need to be guarantee at the start of the season. The money needs to be there up front for the entire season for each club or they don't participate. To run the budget of a club on projected income, is highly speculative and leaves the door open to possible financial dissaster and ruin. Income generated during the season should be allocated the the expenses of the following season. If a club doesn't make enough the cover the expenses for the following season, they either need to secure more capital before the start of that season or they do not participate that year. "The Canadian Soccer League" has to protect itself prior to the start of the season in order to ensure that the season gets completed.

[Calgary Boomer]

"I get really sick and tired over this stupid excuse. The teams in the east are going to be close enough in any event that more econimocal forms of transport will be used. Same in the Edmonton-Calgary corridor. Teams will only need to travel to other sides of the country and that can be reduced through travel bonds and travel partnerships."

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

2. Finding 10-12 wealthy individuals in 10-12 different Canadian metropolitan areas that have the passion or see a profit opportunity in Canadian soccer is almost impossible.

Why is that the sucess or failure of a league must come from within the communities themselves? A league whould be more than willing to have someone come from outside the community to invest. We see this in the Northern League baseball teams comming into Edmonton and Calgary. The CrackerCats are owned by Dan Orlich , a Florida biz man. The Vipers are owned by Winnpeg biz man Jeffrey E. Gidney.

And before people jump an complain that their is no comparison, running a NL squad costs far more than to run a soccer team in a Canadian league.

On top of that, look at ownership groups and community ownership.

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

3. Finding 10-12 Metropolitan areas with suitable stadium facilities is also almost impossible.

Any start-up to a league is going to be 8 teams, no more. Let's get that straight around here. 15 Million Canadians covered in 8 likely suspects."

Nice Job Doyle G! Spot on. It would make more sense to have limited ownership and consolodated costs. Profits from the big 3 would help equalize the smaller clubs etc.

Now as much as I would love to see a new domestic league, Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto in MLS could convert me. Especially if Portland and Seattle were to one day get franchises.

[Luis_Rancagua]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

"I get really sick and tired over this stupid excuse. The teams in the east are going to be close enough in any event that more econimocal forms of transport will be used. Same in the Edmonton-Calgary corridor. Teams will only need to travel to other sides of the country and that can be reduced through travel bonds and travel partnerships."

Why is that the sucess or failure of a league must come from within the communities themselves? A league whould be more than willing to have someone come from outside the community to invest. We see this in the Northern League baseball teams comming into Edmonton and Calgary. The CrackerCats are owned by Dan Orlich , a Florida biz man. The Vipers are owned by Winnpeg biz man Jeffrey E. Gidney.

And before people jump an complain that their is no comparison, running a NL squad costs far more than to run a soccer team in a Canadian league.

On top of that, look at ownership groups and community ownership.

Any start-up to a league is going to be 8 teams, no more. Let's get that straight around here. 15 Million Canadians covered in 8 likely suspects."

Nice Job Doyle G! Spot on. It would make more sense to have limited ownership and consolodated costs. Profits from the big 3 would help equalize the smaller clubs etc.

Now as much as I would love to see a new domestic league, Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto in MLS could convert me. Especially if Portland and Seattle were to one day get franchises.

I am willing to propose teams: Here they are: Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa, Montreal, Windsor, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Victoria, and Regina (maybe).

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Luis_Rancagua

I am willing to propose teams: Here they are: Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa, Montreal, Windsor, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Victoria, and Regina (maybe).

Saskatoon?

Now some of you may think that I'm really jumping of the deep end here, but how about starting a Canadian Soccer League without Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. If you took the other nine cities above, there would definately be more of a Canadian humble time identity to it. It is the larger Canadian cities which are more fragmented due to their ethnic diversities. Just look at the names of the Metro League teams in each of these cities, they are just saturated with identities that lack Canadiana. I'll stop here before the labels exceed being called .........

[Free kick]

Originally posted by Robert

If another CSL model is taking a step backwards, then trying another NASL model would also constitute a step backwards.

[Canuck Oranje]

How will this new league be attractive to these investors (ok let's say 8)? How much money with these investors have to invest and over how many years? What is the value proposition?

How will this proposed league raise the quality of the game above that of the A-league so that it can attract attendance?

If the quality is equal to or lower than that of the current A-League, what will it do differently to attract players and fans?

Why would a 22-year-old graduate of an NCAA school choose to go play soccer in Saskatoon or Regina or Windsor or Kitchener for that matter? How many steps away from a decent paycheck will it be? What kind of work outside of soccer will he be able to get?

Many pro and semi-pro leagues have come and gone over the past 50 years. Teams have come and gone. Some still limp along. And we still haven't found a successful formula. What is going to make this one different?

[Canuck Oranje]

And as someone old enough to have actually driven to and attended both NASL and CSL games, I would say that an NASL format today would be more viable than it was in the 70's-early 80's. The CSL concept has the same problems today as it did back then.

In other words, I would opt for the NASL concept.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

And as someone old enough to have actually driven to and attended both NASL and CSL games, I would say that an NASL format today would be more viable than it was in the 70's-early 80's. The CSL concept has the same problems today as it did back then.

In other words, I would opt for the NASL concept.

If failure is measured in dollars lost, then it is no contest which league was a greater failure. The NASL wins hands down. Whether or not a youug player would benefit more from playing with his peers at a faster paced level then with some 35+ year olds who still have a trick or two up their sleeves is debatable. I opt for the fast paced game. Old timers may attract more dollars at the gate, as was proven with the much debated and controvercial matches recently played in Toronto and Calgary, however, I rather enjoyed watching Cruijff more as a teenager with Ajax in the late sixties (it was awful being a Feijenoord fan living in Amsterdam and having to watch Ajax every second week) than seeing him play for the Aztecs at Commonwealth Stadium. Age and 25 years of more than a pack a day were really in evidence. Yeah, it brought back some memories when he touch the ball a few times, but that was not the Cruijff I remember. So yeah, our family did buy tickets and travelled up to Edmonton from Calgary just to see the legend, but that was a once in a blue moon venture. I did see a lot more Boomer games. The Pele's, Cruijff's and Beckenbauer's you talk about would have given more to the youth North American players of that era had they coached them instead of taking up their place on the field. But the NASL was in the business of making money and not developing American and Canadian soccer talent. That is why I opt for a less glamourous and less attractive Canadian Soccer League. These kids don't command the salaries of those that rely strictly on their past reputations. How much did the United States soccer teams of that era benefit from the presence of those stars. Between 1950 and 1990 the United States never qualified for a single World Cup Final. I don't think there were any NASL players still competing by 1990. So those investors in the NASL thought they were going to make money, but how many did. The goal of any league starting up in Canada should be to still be in existence 25 years later, and neither the NASL or the CSL were able to accomplish that. All of the investors in both leagues lost everything.

[Canuck Oranje]

Incidentally, Cruyff went back after his stint with the Washington Diplomats to play with Feyenoord. The team that had a young Ruud Gullit. Not all players that came over to play in the NASL were at the oldtimer level. Yes there were some. Now they just play at the lower levels in their home country. And Carlos Valderama in the MLS?

I opt for the better soccer and a byproduct of that would be better training for Canadian players. Better soccer will also lead to larger crowds and more attention from the media.

As well, the Canadian players today are better and in greater volume than in the 1970s. I would say the same for the American players. That would also lead to the need for better foreign players if they are to play. The situation today is different than it was in the 1970s and I will say again that the NASL concept in more viable today than it was in the 1970s.