CPL inaugural match - #1 attended match for 2019?

[Robert]

I do know the difference between a good idea and a bad idea.

Starting a professional soccer league in Canada is a bad idea. A real bad idea. Just ask any former owner. Any one of them. And I bet you that there isn't one of them who will disagree with me. Not a single one. Guaranteed!

But go ahead and buy a Betamax if you think its a good idea. It's a free country and its your money!

[rob.notenboom]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

I do know the difference between a good idea and a bad idea.

Starting a professional soccer league in Canada is a bad idea. A real bad idea. Just ask any former owner. Any one of them. And I bet you that there isn't one of them who will disagree with me. Not a single one. Guaranteed!

But go ahead and buy a Betamax if you think its a good idea. It's a free country and its your money!

Well it wasn't a good idea to post the above reaction to my statement so you either don't actually know the difference between a good idea and a bad idea or you're really consistent at following through with bad ideas. 

I will try one more time to see if this can sink in. I doubt it will, but I'm persistent.

It doesn't matter if it's a good idea or a bad idea to start CanPL. It does matter if it's necessary and it absolutely is. And because it's necessary, bad idea or not, it's worth supporting. Of course, good solid critique is actually valuable in this process. But you don't offer good solid critique and this is virtually a worthless place to share it anyway. It would be more worthwhile in consultation with someone who is in a position to make decisions. Interestingly, many people I know (myself included) have managed to positively contribute to the process through offering critiques and feedback. And that wasn't because we were all out here with our rose-coloured glasses going along with everything that the league or teams have done, but because we care enough to contribute. But we've also learned a ton about the people involved along the way so we actually know more than you about what's going on. That's not a conceit, it's simply a fact. 

So when someone states something like 'this is a bad idea' it's meaningless, purposeless, and only serves to add another barrier (however small and insignificant). And what this league needs is fewer barriers not more and more people to take action, not fewer.

[Guest]

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

8 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

...It doesn't matter if it's a good idea or a bad idea to start CanPL. It does matter if it's necessary and it absolutely is...

That last bit is debatable. They could simply have used leagues like the USL Championship and USL 1 instead, and if Robert turns out to be correct that will no doubt be the ultimate destination for the franchises that work, so there's really no huge problem now that the logjam on getting the league launched has been broken. Things will move forward either way.

A decade was lost on achieving further progress through USSF sanctioned league waiting for this CSA sanctioned league to emerge. Hopefully it will have been worth the wait. They seem to be keeping budgets low, so they can target 200k sized cities. They are giving themselves a reasonable shot at filling the niche that exists in a lot of smaller cities from coast to coast for a summer pro sport to parallel the interest in junior hockey in the winter. If Halifax and Victoria work, good things could happen.

As for your comments about the original CSL, having a 5 year contract with TSN was arguably better than the Mediapro deal is at the moment for CanPL in visibility terms and they had unhindered access to the three MLS markets where 10,000+ crowds had been the norm in the NASL only a few years previously. Failure wasn't inevitable in the aftermath of all the positive publicity surrounding CMNT participation in Mexico 86.

The CSL didn't need to be so ideological on who to accept among their first eight investors for the launch, which was part of why they wound up with more borderline investors than they should have. There are parallels there with the present day given CanPL haven't actually been able to reach that number yet despite all the bluster that they would. That is the root cause for a lot of the issues people are complaining about where scheduling is concerned. There are reasons to believe that they could have reached eight with more of a spirit of compromise where MLS is concerned.

[Robert]

12 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

And because it's necessary, bad idea or not, it's worth supporting.

Hey, don't get me wrong. I am looking forward to the season. Right now can I feel a sense of excitement that I used to feel years ago when I went to the race track. In a lot of ways the CPL is like a horse race to me. I liken it to a horse that's going off at 99 to 1. Secretly, in my heart, I'll cheer for the long shot if it happens to be in contention coming down the stretch. But how much would I bet any on a 99 to 1 horse winning the race? Probably about as much as any one on this board put on Leicester City a couple off years ago?

My money's riding on this dark horse, baby
My heart is saying it's the lucky one
And it's true color's gonna shine through someday
If we let this, let this dark horse run

 

[BuzzAndSting]

13 hours ago, Robert said:

I do know the difference between a good idea and a bad idea.

Starting a professional soccer league in Canada is a bad idea. A real bad idea. Just ask any former owner. Any one of them. And I bet you that there isn't one of them who will disagree with me. Not a single one. Guaranteed!

But go ahead and buy a Betamax if you think its a good idea. It's a free country and its your money!

Ask a former owner? One who failed? Seems like a good way to get an objective opinion. Why not ask a current owner? Any of the MLS teams? Tom Fath? He's probably the only owner qualified to give an objective answer as to whether this league will succeed.

[Copes]

36 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Ask a former owner? One who failed? Seems like a good way to get an objective opinion. Why not ask a current owner? Any of the MLS teams? Tom Fath? He's probably the only owner qualified to give an objective answer as to whether this league will succeed.

Hell, I'd say the judgement of the former owners should be questioned since they did it. Since they thought a bad idea was a good idea back then, maybe if they think its a bad idea now it really means its a good idea!

[Admin]

14 hours ago, Robert said:

I do know the difference between a good idea and a bad idea.

Starting a professional soccer league in Canada is a bad idea. A real bad idea. Just ask any former owner. Any one of them. And I bet you that there isn't one of them who will disagree with me. Not a single one. Guaranteed!

But go ahead and buy a Betamax if you think its a good idea. It's a free country and its your money!

I have coffee with a former csl owner at least once a month.

Stay positive, we don't need this

 

[Keegan]

@BringBackTheBlizzard I’ve seen you mention many times how we could have gone the USL Championship route.  How is this any different?  This is like USL but with continental play and a broadcasting deal.  It seems to hurt people’s feelings that CPL is shaping up to be better than USL in every aspect.  Seriously spinsters?  USL just signed a Canadian from the 2nd division Faroese league.. your “better level” argument is fading fast and you’re grasping at straws.

I get you’re just here to put a negative spin on everything but at least explain yourself. CPL is a more attractive option than USL, period.  It’s the reason you have so many cities looking at teams whereas USL was a failure in Canada.  

What would USL get us? Honestly it’s the most absurd point “we should have only 3 teams that travel all over the states, never promote or play continentally and have zero coverage” ... yeah, that was definitely the best choice to improve Canadian soccer. 

Without CPL most of Canada would never have a local team.  USL is going nowhere, the same place it’s been for it’s entire existence - but sure, that was the “safe bet”.  Give me a break. 

[Keegan]

15 hours ago, Robert said:

I do know the difference between a good idea and a bad idea.

Starting a professional soccer league in Canada is a bad idea. A real bad idea. Just ask any former owner. Any one of them. And I bet you that there isn't one of them who will disagree with me. Not a single one. Guaranteed!

But go ahead and buy a Betamax if you think its a good idea. It's a free country and its your money!

Yeah.. except that little company called MLSE.  I’ll wait for the spin on that one.. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

2 minutes ago, Keegan said:

@BringBackTheBlizzard I’ve seen you mention many times how we could have gone the USL Championship route.  How is this any different?  ...

Are you aware that there were groups in Victoria, London and Hamilton that were interested in entering the USL when it launched at D3 level but were prevented from doing so when the CSA imposed a moratorium on sanctioning, so a domestic league could be pursued? We could and probably would have had many more pro teams emerge in the intervening eight years if entry into the leagues that were already there had been encouraged, so CanPL wasn't absolutely necessary to achieve the outcome of having more pro teams in Canada. You can argue it's a better strategy for Canadian soccer if you like, but there was a less risky alternative strategy readily available.

[rob.notenboom]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

That last bit is debatable. They could simply have used leagues like the USL Championship and USL 1 instead

This entire line of reasoning, one that you've been hammering on about for years, is debatable. In fact, based on what I've been told by those who might actually be willing to start USL teams including all of the current and former PDL teams, multiple people from higher end academies and clubs across Canada, and several folks involved in L1O and other high performance leagues, CanPL is a far preferable to USL. In short, your arguments are sitting on sand. But of course you've convinced yourself that you're right. It's sad, honestly. 

Let me point something out to you. It's a pattern that applies to many of your arguments and it's at both times hilarious and pathetic. In another thread somewhere you suggested that the Calgary ownership were into CanPL for a quick cash grab because the setback of one part of their stadium was farther than ideal and that they don't understand soccer well enough, only show jumping. Here's the relevant quote:

" … which is a bit of a red flag that the owners may not understand what tends to work in a soccer rather than a showjumping context and are looking to make a quick buck more than anything else."

The confusion of ideas that would lead one to that interpretation is really quite amazing. There are about a thousand other possible interpretations that don't call the very motives of the owners into question, but you managed to jump right to 'they want to make a quick buck.' And day after day, month after month, these are the kinds of nonsense interpretations you've been serving up here. So is it any wonder that people don't find your comments worthwhile? The odd reasonable assertion is buried in a mountain of garbage. 

But there is another layer to this. There are clearly people on this site and elsewhere who actually have much more information on all of these matters and have pointed out your errors in the past. In the Calgary case, I've talked to many people both within the administrative side of Spruce Meadows and on the technical side of Cavalry FC as well as within the greater Calgary soccer community and within Cavalry's potential fan base and supporters group. Based on what I've learned from these conversations is that your 'make a quick buck assertion' is completely off base. It's absolutely ridiculous and laughable. I mean, it's laughable anyway considering the giant leap you had to make to go from virtually no information to that bonkers interpretation, but the information I have access to just highlights how nuts it really is. 

But clearly you are not the type to test your assertions by asking around before making them. You seem to be the kind of person who doesn't want to spoil his narrative by subjecting it to any real expertise or knowledge. Instead you'd rather smear people who are actually doing the work and taking the risk.

And to be blunt, people who sit on the sidelines and snipe rather than getting their hands dirty and help out are one of the worst kind of people. 

[Keegan]

15 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Are you aware that there were groups in Victoria, London and Hamilton that were interested in entering the USL when it launched at D3 level but were prevented from doing so when the CSA imposed a moratorium on sanctioning, so a domestic league could be pursued? We could and probably would have had many more pro teams emerge in the intervening eight years if entry into the leagues that were already there had been encouraged, so CanPL wasn't absolutely necessary to achieve the outcome of having more pro teams in Canada. You can argue it's a better strategy for Canadian soccer if you like, but there was a less risky alternative strategy readily available.

Okay and then we would have been stuck in the USL with no shot at a pro league?  We would have had 3 Ottawa’s instead of one?  Ottawa is a blueprint for the failure of USL.. poor branding, poor management, high turnover, road to nowhere etc. 

Short term loss for long term gain is a basic tenet of business. Was it worth it to put a few USL franchises on hold for a few years?  Yes x10000.  In hindsight that was the easiest decision the CSA has ever had to make and I’m sure they’re glad they did. It would have been easy to fold and let a few teams in USL but we would be capped on pro teams.  A USL team in Hamilton would have flunked , very confident in saying that because it’s viewed as “AHL to NHL” and you have TFC down the road.. the way CPL is structured you can’t make that argument.

How about when WE decide we want a team in Niagara or KW and the USL says “no”.  Still great for Canada soccer?  We cannot let the USSF/USL control our interests, it’s absurd to even consider. 

Business requires “risk”.  Taking the less risky USL would have consigned our domestic clubs to anonymity and mediocrity for the foreseeable future.  No control of our destiny, just crap... 

Damn, whenever I think the CSA is bad I just imagine if “others” were in control..

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

7 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

" … which is a bit of a red flag that the owners may not understand what tends to work in a soccer rather than a showjumping context and are looking to make a quick buck more than anything else."

...But clearly you are not the type to test your assertions by asking around before making them....

What assertion? All I stated is that it's a bit of a red flag. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

11 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Okay and then we would have been stuck in the USL with no shot at a pro league? ...

Did you read the bit where I stated the following:

24 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...You can argue it's a better strategy for Canadian soccer if you like, but there was a less risky alternative strategy readily available.

and the bit above where I wrote:

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

A decade was lost on achieving further progress through USSF sanctioned league waiting for this CSA sanctioned league to emerge. Hopefully it will have been worth the wait.

I understand the arguments as to why CanPL is preferable to USL if it thrives in the years ahead. It needs to actually work in practice now when aspiration finally gets replaced by reality. Hopefully it will.

[rob.notenboom]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

What assertion? All I stated is that it's a bit of a red flag. 

Asserted, stated, suggested, interpreted, inferred ... whatever. It’s not a red flag. At all. It’s a red flag to you because you go around day after day desperately searching for red flags. And I can state that it’s not a red flag based on the superior knowledge I have of the situation. 

And if that’s what you take from my above comments, then that’s sad but not unexpected. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Halifax and Calgary have very different pricing schemes for year one. Halifax appear to be doing a better job on selling season tickets right now. Coincidence? I don't think it is in any way off base to suggest on that basis that Halifax management might have a better feel for what works in a soccer context and beyond that to suggest that when you are introducing a new franchise to a marketplace it might be sensible to have a lower set of introductory price rather than trying to make a quick buck by pushing for premium level prices straight away, especially when a sizable portion of the roster were on the PDL Foothills team last season.

[BuzzAndSting]

6 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Halifax and Calgary have very different pricing schemes for year one. Halifax appear to be doing a better job on selling season tickets right now. Coincidence? I don't think it is in any way off base to suggest on that basis that Halifax management might have a better feel for what works in a soccer context and beyond that to suggest that when you are introducing a new franchise to a marketplace it might be sensible to have a lower set of introductory price rather than trying to make a quick buck by pushing for premium level prices straight away, especially when a sizable portion of the roster were on the PDL Foothills team last season.

This has to be by far the weakest argument you've ever put forward on this site.

Calgary has the highest median household income in the country at $105K while Halifax ranks 15th at $85K. That is much more likely the reason for any discrepancy in pricing.

[rob.notenboom]

6 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Halifax and Calgary have very different pricing schemes for year one. Halifax appear to be doing a better job on selling season tickets right now. Coincidence? I don't think it is in any way off base to suggest on that basis that Halifax management might have a better feel for what works in a soccer context and beyond that to suggest that when you are introducing a new franchise to a marketplace it might be sensible to have a lower set of introductory price rather than trying to make a quick buck by pushing for premium level prices straight away, especially when a sizable portion of the roster were on the PDL Foothills team last season.

You know virtually nothing about Calgary’s sales and marketing so your interpretations are built on sand.

You’re not going to admit this of course. But it’s important for others to read it. 

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It's not that difficult to access the pricing scheme and my assessment that the prices were set too high is in tune with what members of the Cavalry's supporters group were posting at the time they were released both here and on Reddit so is not some offbase opinion out in left field.

[Macksam]

Aspiration and reality? Can someone educate him on what these terms mean. Aspiration is to achieve something down the road. Reality is self explanatory. One does not replace the other. A great example is this: I aspire to get my CPA designation but the reality is I currently do not have it. However, I should be able to obtain it come May of 2020 when I fulfill the requirements.  

[BuzzAndSting]

13 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It's not that difficult to access the pricing scheme and my assessment that the prices were set too high is in tune with what members of the Cavalry's supporters group were posting at the time they were released both here and on Reddit so is not some offbase opinion out in left field.

Ahhhh. So you're speculation that the Southern family, who are worth more than $2B, are trying to make a "quick buck" is based on a handful people on Reddit and this site complaining that their supporters ticket, normally the cheapest seats in the stadium, is too expensive in the new fully professional league compared to the ticket they bought in an amateur league previously?

[rob.notenboom]

10 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It's not that difficult to access the pricing scheme and my assessment that the prices were set too high is in tune with what members of the Cavalry's supporters group were posting at the time they were released both here and on Reddit so is not some offbase opinion out in left field.

It is more difficult to make an informed interpretation of Spruce Meadow's and Cavalry's actions, however. Their marketing and business plan is very complex and they've done a very large amount of market research to back up their chosen approaches, much of which hasn't even been seen or released yet. So once again, you are basing your assessment on virtually nothing.

Here are a few hints ... listen more, opine less. Ask a question once in a while. Pay closer attention to people who are closer to the actual situation. You might learn a little and not seem so lost and ill-informed. Also notice things like when those same supporters you referenced change their tune on the ticket prices and move on from their gut reaction. I know many of those supporters on a first name basis. So here once again is another area where I could tell you a lot about what they really feel now and if and how their original gut reactions have changed. 

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

This entire line of reasoning, one that you've been hammering on about for years, is debatable. In fact, based on what I've been told by those who might actually be willing to start USL teams including all of the current and former PDL teams, multiple people from higher end academies and clubs across Canada, and several folks involved in L1O and other high performance leagues, CanPL is a far preferable to USL. In short, your arguments are sitting on sand. But of course you've convinced yourself that you're right. It's sad, honestly. 

Let me point something out to you. It's a pattern that applies to many of your arguments and it's at both times hilarious and pathetic. In another thread somewhere you suggested that the Calgary ownership were into CanPL for a quick cash grab because the setback of one part of their stadium was farther than ideal and that they don't understand soccer well enough, only show jumping. Here's the relevant quote:

" … which is a bit of a red flag that the owners may not understand what tends to work in a soccer rather than a showjumping context and are looking to make a quick buck more than anything else."

The confusion of ideas that would lead one to that interpretation is really quite amazing. There are about a thousand other possible interpretations that don't call the very motives of the owners into question, but you managed to jump right to 'they want to make a quick buck.' And day after day, month after month, these are the kinds of nonsense interpretations you've been serving up here. So is it any wonder that people don't find your comments worthwhile? The odd reasonable assertion is buried in a mountain of garbage. 

But there is another layer to this. There are clearly people on this site and elsewhere who actually have much more information on all of these matters and have pointed out your errors in the past. In the Calgary case, I've talked to many people both within the administrative side of Spruce Meadows and on the technical side of Cavalry FC as well as within the greater Calgary soccer community and within Cavalry's potential fan base and supporters group. Based on what I've learned from these conversations is that your 'make a quick buck assertion' is completely off base. It's absolutely ridiculous and laughable. I mean, it's laughable anyway considering the giant leap you had to make to go from virtually no information to that bonkers interpretation, but the information I have access to just highlights how nuts it really is. 

But clearly you are not the type to test your assertions by asking around before making them. You seem to be the kind of person who doesn't want to spoil his narrative by subjecting it to any real expertise or knowledge. Instead you'd rather smear people who are actually doing the work and taking the risk.

And to be blunt, people who sit on the sidelines and snipe rather than getting their hands dirty and help out are one of the worst kind of people. 

You've written a lot of words only to come to same point that I made a few months ago...he's simply a cunt of a bloke.

[Keegan]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Did you read the bit where I stated the following:

and the bit above where I wrote:

I understand the arguments as to why CanPL is preferable to USL if it thrives in the years ahead. It needs to actually work in practice now when aspiration finally gets replaced by reality. Hopefully it will.

You clearly read none of my reply.  I specifically address your “less risky” situation and “decade lost” (false anyway) assertions.  I wholly agree with both.