CanPL COUNTDOWN

[LAK]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

My mistake. I keep forgetting who I'm addressing. The point I was trying to make with the 1983 CPSL lasting only 73 days before folding was the fact that a professional national soccer league needs more than 6 clubs to be financial viable. You need to play more games to make enough money to cover the expenses. Starting a national professional soccer league with only 8 clubs is a sure-fire recipe for failure!  

Honestly, this above, is actually a better way to post that. Legit points...other than 8 clubs is a sure-fire recipe for failure. I do believe there are some successful leagues that have had 8 teams, like the CFL which has been in existence in one way or another for over 100 years.

I also think that depending on how many imports are allowed, doing too many clubs all at once will be difficult on the canadian content. We all want Canadians to grow and develop, but I do believe that will take a little time to get there.

[Robert]

3 hours ago, LAK said:

Honestly, this above, is actually a better way to post that. Legit points...other than 8 clubs is a sure-fire recipe for failure. I do believe there are some successful leagues that have had 8 teams, like the CFL which has been in existence in one way or another for over 100 years.

I also think that depending on how many imports are allowed, doing too many clubs all at once will be difficult on the canadian content. We all want Canadians to grow and develop, but I do believe that will take a little time to get there.

That's kinda like comparing apples to oranges. Two completely different sports. One successful 8-club professional national soccer league is the Lliga Multisegur Assegurances, in Andorra. However, Andorra measures only 467.6 square kilometers, whereas Canada's landmass adds up to a whopping 9,985,000,000 square kilometers.  

League table[edit]

Pos	Team [  v t e   ]	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification
1	FC Santa Coloma	21	15	3	3	55	16	+39	48	Qualification for the Championship round
2	Engordany	21	14	5	2	45	11	+34	47
3	Sant Julià	21	12	6	3	58	15	+43	42
4	Lusitanos	21	10	4	7	49	26	+23	34
5	UE Santa Coloma	21	8	5	8	35	25	+10	29	Qualification for the Relegation round
6	Inter Club d'Escaldes	21	7	4	10	33	29	+4	25
7	Encamp	21	3	1	17	26	76	−50	10
8	Penya Encarnada	21	0	2	19	10	113	−103	2

Source: FAF Soccerway
Rules for classification: 1) Points; 2) Head-to-head points; 3) Head-to-head goal difference; 4) Head-to-head goals scored; 5) Goal difference; 6) Goals scored.^[6]

Results

[Kent]

8 hours ago, Robert said:

That's kinda like comparing apples to oranges. Two completely different sports. One successful 8-club professional national soccer league is the Lliga Multisegur Assegurances, in Andorra. However, Andorra measures only 467.6 square kilometers, whereas Canada's landmass adds up to a whopping 9,985,000,000 square kilometers.  

League table[edit]

Pos	Team [  v t e   ]	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification
1	FC Santa Coloma	21	15	3	3	55	16	+39	48	Qualification for the Championship round
2	Engordany	21	14	5	2	45	11	+34	47
3	Sant Julià	21	12	6	3	58	15	+43	42
4	Lusitanos	21	10	4	7	49	26	+23	34
5	UE Santa Coloma	21	8	5	8	35	25	+10	29	Qualification for the Relegation round
6	Inter Club d'Escaldes	21	7	4	10	33	29	+4	25
7	Encamp	21	3	1	17	26	76	−50	10
8	Penya Encarnada	21	0	2	19	10	113	−103	2

Source: FAF Soccerway
Rules for classification: 1) Points; 2) Head-to-head points; 3) Head-to-head goal difference; 4) Head-to-head goals scored; 5) Goal difference; 6) Goals scored.^[6]

Results

Or, again, the A-League, which started out with 8 teams for the first 4 seasons. That included a team in New Zealand, so Australia + New Zealand's area adds up to 7,960,045 square kilometers (by the way, you had 3 too many zeroes in Canada's area, it's 9,984,670, and also you said landmass, which is less than that, but let's not nitpick). Still not as big as Canada, but a whole lot more comparable.

[grande]

THAT WAS THIRTY FIVE YEARS AGO, HOLY SHIT.

The sporting landscape in Canada has changed a bit in the intervening three and a half decades. A bunch of my friends are all looking forward to the new league, and are planning on buying seasons tickets, and none of us were born when the CPSL existed.

Stop it. Things have changed. I don't know if CPL will survive, but you can't just keep saying "well, it didn't work 35 years ago, so it won't work today" like that's any sort of evidence.

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, Robert said:

That's kinda like comparing apples to oranges. Two completely different sports. One successful 8-club professional national soccer league is the Lliga Multisegur Assegurances, in Andorra. However, Andorra measures only 467.6 square kilometers, whereas Canada's landmass adds up to a whopping 9,985,000,000 square kilometers.  

League table[edit]

Pos	Team [  v t e   ]	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification
1	FC Santa Coloma	21	15	3	3	55	16	+39	48	Qualification for the Championship round
2	Engordany	21	14	5	2	45	11	+34	47
3	Sant Julià	21	12	6	3	58	15	+43	42
4	Lusitanos	21	10	4	7	49	26	+23	34
5	UE Santa Coloma	21	8	5	8	35	25	+10	29	Qualification for the Relegation round
6	Inter Club d'Escaldes	21	7	4	10	33	29	+4	25
7	Encamp	21	3	1	17	26	76	−50	10
8	Penya Encarnada	21	0	2	19	10	113	−103	2

Source: FAF Soccerway
Rules for classification: 1) Points; 2) Head-to-head points; 3) Head-to-head goal difference; 4) Head-to-head goals scored; 5) Goal difference; 6) Goals scored.^[6]

Results

Robert, that league is not professional, it is fully amateur. In fact the best team in Andorra, which is FC Andorra, does not even play in it, they are in 5th tier Catalonia. And most of their players are not making any more than something symbolic to cover costs, I doubt more than 3-4 have a living wage. The only compensation for that league is that some players are on the national team, and they get some payments for those matches.

I think we have to look at leagues with a small number of teams all around the world, whether Austria or Switzerland, with ten teams, Scotland with 12, to know what we should be thinking of. I agree that six is very thin, and that 8 would be a great start. I am also convinced, that at the scale we are talking about, and with no franchising fees to enter, but the club model where meeting minimum criteria can get you certified, we will be more sustainable. 

I think if they continue with this model we will be surprised with what we end up with in a few years. All I am hoping is that all owner groups are ready and committed to sustain modest losses and not bail at the first sign of red numbers.

[Robert]

39 minutes ago, grande said:

THAT WAS THIRTY FIVE YEARS AGO, HOLY SHIT.

The sporting landscape in Canada has changed a bit in the intervening three and a half decades. A bunch of my friends are all looking forward to the new league, and are planning on buying seasons tickets, and none of us were born when the CPSL existed.

Stop it. Things have changed. I don't know if CPL will survive, but you can't just keep saying "well, it didn't work 35 years ago, so it won't work today" like that's any sort of evidence.

AND IT WAS ONE HUNDRED AND TWELVE YEARS AGO THAT THE PEOPLE SHIELD, THE FIRST INCARNATION OF A NATIONAL CANADIAN SOCCER LEAGUE WAS LAUNCHED IN TORONTO, AND THAT EFFORT ONLY LASTED UNTIL 1912.

So what factors of the Canadian sporting landscape, which caused the demise of every previous attempt, have change? Is the distance between Halifax and Victoria any shorter? Has soccer become any more popular in Canadian cities during the past century? Careful how you answer this. I am a soccer historian, who can quote you attendance figures and populations of Canadian cities going back to the late 1800's?

And NO way am I going to stop it, just because my opinion is different from yours. You believe the CanPL will work. I say it will not. I respect and accept that you see the world your way. Please extend me the same courtesy. After all, this is Canada and I am entitled to have an opinion, even if you don't agree. I have been called a troll and every other name in the book on this board. Does that bother me? Hell no, because I know it's not true. Also, I don't need to publicly announce that I am going to ignore someone on this board. To use a young person's quote: "I just do it."  

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Or, again, the A-League, which started out with 8 teams for the first 4 seasons. That included a team in New Zealand, so Australia + New Zealand's area adds up to 7,960,045 square kilometers (by the way, you had 3 too many zeroes in Canada's area, it's 9,984,670, and also you said landmass, which is less than that, but let's not nitpick). Still not as big as Canada, but a whole lot more comparable.

Thanks for pointing that out. I never imagined that New Zealand and Australia were almost as large as Canada.

[Kent]

25 minutes ago, Robert said:

Thanks for pointing that out. I never imagined that New Zealand and Australia were almost as large as Canada.

And I had no idea that Andorra was smaller than Canada. You said comparing CFL to CPL was comparing apples to oranges. I was arguing that comparing CPL to the Andorra league is also comparing apples to oranges. I just tried to find you a closer comparison, and somehow the A-League was not a sure-fire failure.

As for the difference of opinion, I don't think people have a problem with you having an opinion. It's the arrogance with which you display your opinion that rubs people the wrong way. Saying things like it is a sure-fire failure if they launch with 8 teams, or the league is doomed because they don't have a countdown to the first kick is a bit over the top.

Nobody knows for sure if it will succeed or fail. Probably on this board we let it slide a bit too much when people say it will definitely succeed, but don't act so innocent when people call you out for stating your opinions as facts.

[Robert]

24 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Robert, that league is not professional, it is fully amateur. In fact the best team in Andorra, which is FC Andorra, does not even play in it, they are in 5th tier Catalonia. And most of their players are not making any more than something symbolic to cover costs, I doubt more than 3-4 have a living wage. The only compensation for that league is that some players are on the national team, and they get some payments for those matches.

I think we have to look at leagues with a small number of teams all around the world, whether Austria or Switzerland, with ten teams, Scotland with 12, to know what we should be thinking of. I agree that six is very thin, and that 8 would be a great start. I am also convinced, that at the scale we are talking about, and with no franchising fees to enter, but the club model where meeting minimum criteria can get you certified, we will be more sustainable. 

I think if they continue with this model we will be surprised with what we end up with in a few years. All I am hoping is that all owner groups are ready and committed to sustain modest losses and not bail at the first sign of red numbers.

Sounds like you know more about Andorran soccer than I do. I went down the list alphabetically and Andorra was the first to match the numbers. I did notice though that the Andorran league has been around since 1995, which is a lot longer than all the Canadian leagues combined.

Funny how, depending on which side of this debate one sits, we make our comparisons. From a tiny country like Andorra, to Scotland, one of the oldest established associations in the world, one that is steeped in a rich footballing tradition. Regardless of who we choose to compare ourselves to, one fact remains indisputable: Every other country has had a national soccer league, whether professional or semi-professional, up and running for years to satisfy their masses. I do not believe that "anything is better than nothing" if that anything is going to be nothing more than a fleeting memory ten years down the road.

Professional soccer is a business, and the primary reason people go into business is to make money. I predict that ALL CanPL ownership groups will incur material losses during the inaugural season. Furthermore, in an 8-team league, it is guaranteed that three clubs will finish in the sixth, seventh and eighth positions. Those are the clubs that will be most vulnerable and it is unlikely that all three of these clubs will be in existence when and if a second CanPL season starts.   

[Robert]

1 minute ago, Kent said:

And I had no idea that Andorra was smaller than Canada. You said comparing CFL to CPL was comparing apples to oranges. I was arguing that comparing CPL to the Andorra league is also comparing apples to oranges. I just tried to find you a closer comparison, and somehow the A-League was not a sure-fire failure.

As for the difference of opinion, I don't think people have a problem with you having an opinion. It's the arrogance with which you display your opinion that rubs people the wrong way. Saying things like it is a sure-fire failure if they launch with 8 teams, or the league is doomed because they don't have a countdown to the first kick is a bit over the top.

Nobody knows for sure if it will succeed or fail. Probably on this board we let it slide a bit too much when people say it will definitely succeed, but don't act so innocent when people call you out for stating your opinions as facts.

Okay, I admit that I am an arrogant fucker. That my cross to bear. Do I go around doing your personal inventory?

[LAK]

36 minutes ago, Robert said:

AND IT WAS ONE HUNDRED AND TWELVE YEARS AGO THAT THE PEOPLE SHIELD, THE FIRST INCARNATION OF A NATIONAL CANADIAN SOCCER LEAGUE WAS LAUNCHED IN TORONTO, AND THAT EFFORT ONLY LASTED UNTIL 1912.

So what factors of the Canadian sporting landscape, which caused the demise of every previous attempt, have change? Is the distance between Halifax and Victoria any shorter?

Well the modes of transportation have changed since 1912. It doesn't take you three years to get across the country losing half of your family to pnemonia.

 

37 minutes ago, Robert said:

Has soccer become any more popular in Canadian cities during the past century?

Yes, it's more popular now. I don't know if a ton of people were watching Premier League games on a weekly basis from the old country in 1912. I suspect they weren't because they didn't have electricity.

39 minutes ago, Robert said:

Careful how you answer this. I am a soccer historian, who can quote you attendance figures and populations of Canadian cities going back to the late 1800's?

 

Was that careful enough? Tell me about the good old days.

As far as the league 35 years ago...again ALOT has changed. The CFL which I know a lot better changed completely when they got the TSN tv deal. That was only ten years ago. The teams have never been more secure than right now. We are now on the other side of big tv deals, streaming services is what's up next and I think CPL will take advantage of that.  I think a lot of us look at the current situation and feel that there is enough of a difference now to make this work. If not, when? Never? Is that the opinion of the historian? The biggest example of how things have changed. Were there supporters groups in the 1800's that were demanding clubs in their communities? How about the 80's? I think there is a real legit groundswell of support and I believe that is what drew the investors (investors of this magnitude also not existent in previous attempts).

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

Professional soccer is a business, and the primary reason people go into business is to make money. I predict that ALL CanPL ownership groups will incur material losses during the inaugural season. Furthermore, in an 8-team league, it is guaranteed that three clubs will finish in the sixth, seventh and eighth positions. Those are the clubs that will be most vulnerable and it is unlikely that all three of these clubs will be in existence when and if a second CanPL season starts.   

IN most modest leagues in the world, there is no money to be made, Robert. There is a reason they have leagues that is above the business: the national federation considers it is a basic obligation to have a national league, which is why they all have them and Canada does not. They have a sense of minimum obligation, for years, decades, in Canada we have not. We have been the freaks of world soccer. 

I am not saying you want to permanently lose money, that is not viable, unless it is a small amount and maybe spread over a few deep-pocketed investors. But the reason to have a league is that world soccer is structured around national federations preparing national teams and organizing national leagues, and that formula works for not only  95% of all countries in the world, it works even for places that are not countries, like Gibraltar, or the French outre-mer entities.

I totally disagree that a lower placed team is more vulnerable than a higher placed team, there is no basis in world soccer to make that statement.

[Rocket Robin]

23 hours ago, LAK said:

Honestly, this above, is actually a better way to post that. Legit points...other than 8 clubs is a sure-fire recipe for failure. I do believe there are some successful leagues that have had 8 teams, like the CFL which has been in existence in one way or another for over 100 years.

I also think that depending on how many imports are allowed, doing too many clubs all at once will be difficult on the canadian content. We all want Canadians to grow and develop, but I do believe that will take a little time to get there.

The NHL got by with six teams for something like 35 years before 1967 doubled them to twelve.  

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, Rocket Robin said:

The NHL got by with six teams for something like 35 years before 1967 doubled them to twelve.  

The CFL & NHL have about as much to do with a running a professional national soccer league in Canada, as does the Canadian Canasta League does with the CanPL. Like when was the last time a CFL player took part in some 40-plus matches in a season? Also, didn't the NHL have only two Canadian clubs back then? How can you consider that a professional national league?

[Rocket Robin]

NHL would only be considered a regional league as it was only in the US northeast and Canadian border cities.  

Baseball had all their teams east of the Mississippi because train travel was really the only alternative before WWII.   So people in San Francisco watched minor league player Joe DiMaggio until he was bought by a big league club.  

[Robert]

9 hours ago, LAK said:

Well the modes of transportation have changed since 1912. It doesn't take you three years to get across the country losing half of your family to pnemonia.

 

Yes, it's more popular now. I don't know if a ton of people were watching Premier League games on a weekly basis from the old country in 1912. I suspect they weren't because they didn't have electricity.

Was that careful enough? Tell me about the good old days.

As far as the league 35 years ago...again ALOT has changed. The CFL which I know a lot better changed completely when they got the TSN tv deal. That was only ten years ago. The teams have never been more secure than right now. We are now on the other side of big tv deals, streaming services is what's up next and I think CPL will take advantage of that.  I think a lot of us look at the current situation and feel that there is enough of a difference now to make this work. If not, when? Never? Is that the opinion of the historian? The biggest example of how things have changed. Were there supporters groups in the 1800's that were demanding clubs in their communities? How about the 80's? I think there is a real legit groundswell of support and I believe that is what drew the investors (investors of this magnitude also not existent in previous attempts).

Breaking News: April 5, 1909. a team of touring All-Stars from San Francisco, California played a soccer match against Nanaimo United, at the Cricket Grounds, in Nanaimo. Although they could afford to buy airplane tickets they did manage to make it to Vancouver Island in under 24 hours by steam ship. Over 3,000 enthusiasts attended the match, not bad considering the population of Nanaimo totaled less than 10,000 at the time. That's 30% of the population! Also, there were no reports of any of the visiting players succumbing to any illnesses that they may have picked up while visiting Nanaimo, Victoria and Vancouver. Also, there were very detailed accounts of English soccer matches in the local newspapers during that era.

So to answer your question, obviously you don't have a fucking clue about whatever it is your spouting off about! 

Oh, by the way, the California All-Stars defeated Nanaimo United by a score of 5 goals to 2.

[IAmPappy]

Robert, you’re a funny guy. I’m really enjoying you’re close-minded, ranting bullshit. 

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

The CFL & NHL have about as much to do with a running a professional national soccer league in Canada, as does the Canadian Canasta League does with the CanPL. Like when was the last time a CFL player took part in some 40-plus matches in a season? Also, didn't the NHL have only two Canadian clubs back then? How can you consider that a professional national league?

You have ignored my Australia example. What do you think the magic number would be when you would have a chance of successfully starting a pro league? Or are you going to rant (like in a different thread you started) about how the only way is to have it just happen from what are now amateur teams growing to the point that they become pro? If there is a magic number, is it higher than the 10 teams that MLS and J-League started with in the 90’s?

[LAK]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

Breaking News: April 5, 1909. a team of touring All-Stars from San Francisco, California played a soccer match against Nanaimo United, at the Cricket Grounds, in Nanaimo. Although they could afford to buy airplane tickets they did manage to make it to Vancouver Island in under 24 hours by steam ship. Over 3,000 enthusiasts attended the match, not bad considering the population of Nanaimo totaled less than 10,000 at the time. That's 30% of the population! Also, there were no reports of any of the visiting players succumbing to any illnesses that they may have picked up while visiting Nanaimo, Victoria and Vancouver. Also, there were very detailed accounts of English soccer matches in the local newspapers during that era.

So to answer your question, obviously you don't have a fucking clue about whatever it is your spouting off about! 

Oh, by the way, the California All-Stars defeated Nanaimo United by a score of 5 goals to 2.

What I was spouting off about were factors as to why this can work NOW...But thanks for the useless anecdote from 1909, that should play significantly into the league that is unfolding in 2019. 

I mean how can we possibly run a league today? You can't even get to some of these cities via steamboat, it's clearly doomed.

In fairness to you, the detailed accounts of English soccer being reported is not nothing.

[Bison44]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

Breaking News: April 5, 1909. a team of touring All-Stars from San Francisco, California played a soccer match against Nanaimo United, at the Cricket Grounds, in Nanaimo. Although they could afford to buy airplane tickets they did manage to make it to Vancouver Island in under 24 hours by steam ship. Over 3,000 enthusiasts attended the match, not bad considering the population of Nanaimo totaled less than 10,000 at the time. That's 30% of the population! Also, there were no reports of any of the visiting players succumbing to any illnesses that they may have picked up while visiting Nanaimo, Victoria and Vancouver. Also, there were very detailed accounts of English soccer matches in the local newspapers during that era.

So to answer your question, obviously you don't have a fucking clue about whatever it is your spouting off about! 

Oh, by the way, the California All-Stars defeated Nanaimo United by a score of 5 goals to 2.

 

I just have to clarify something, these airplane tickets they "could have" bought in 1909....were they on a derrigible, zeplin??  Hot air balloon?  

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Kent said:

You have ignored my Australia example. What do you think the magic number would be when you would have a chance of successfully starting a pro league? Or are you going to rant (like in a different thread you started) about how the only way is to have it just happen from what are now amateur teams growing to the point that they become pro? If there is a magic number, is it higher than the 10 teams that MLS and J-League started with in the 90’s?

The only reason that I ignored your Australia example is because not only are Australians better soccer players than Canadians, Australia has way better soccer supporters than Canada! So its little wonder they have succeeded with their league, while we continue to fiddle-fuck around.

Any who, you asked what my magic number would be for successfully starting up a pro league in Canada. First of all, for the I don't know how manieth time: AT THIS TIME CANADA IS NOT READY TO START UP A PROFESSIONAL NATIONAL SOCCER LEAGUE!!! I have always said that a league is something we need to build towards. I have also always said that we are ready for a professional national soccer structure. So hopefully now that is perfectly clear, at least to arrogant me it is, the magic number you seek for this professional national soccer STRUCTURE is, wait for it, HOW MANY PROVINCES AND HOW MANY TERRITORIES does Canada have? Okay, now you add those two numbers up and that is how many team that are needed to start up a successful professional Canadian soccer STRUCTURE. Everybody competes, and no fucking United States teams are allowed to take part in it. Now it's okay for all the simpletons out there in Voyageur-land to say that I'm a moron. Really. It's okay. You have my permission, because I understand that you don't understand. Stupid people are also allowed to become Voyageurs. We have quite a few of them on this board. But be honest now, regardless if you can';t stand my guts, wouldn't it be really fucking nice if we had such a structure? Every province and territory represented, and no fucking Yankees to put up with! Now there's a novel scheme if I ever heard one. Once we start producing better soccer players like the Australians do, then we can start to think about starting up a professional national soccer league that Canadians would be willing to pay to watch.

Just think, if we were just as good as Australia, we would have been going to the World Cup in 2006, 2010, 2014 and 2018 just like them.

[shamrock]

Most clubs in most leagues around the world aren't profitable at all. They're kept afloat by crazy people (in the sense that they put way more time and effort in those clubs than makes sense, rationally) like owners, financiers, members and especially volunteers. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

CPL, it's just not ready. Heard that before.

My skepticism here was a way of dealing with rampant speculation based on virtually no hard facts. Now that we do indeed have hard facts, I am rather optimistic. That is different, I would think, of continuing to rant negatively against realities staring you in the face.

[IAmPappy]

Blah blah blah f-bomb blah blah Andorra blah blah f-bomb blah blah structure blah blah ...

Okay, so we need a STRUCTURE, operated under some sanctioning body, for Canadian teams ONLY, with a team in EACH province, competing to better improve the quality of our players.

i think you’re on to something here, Robert. What should we call it? It’s an organized structure, and it’s Canadian, and it’s tops in the land ...

How about Canadian Top Structure? The CTS!

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

CPL, it's just not ready. Heard that before.

My skepticism here was a way of dealing with rampant speculation based on virtually no hard facts. Now that we do indeed have hard facts, I am rather optimistic. That is different, I would think, of continuing to rant negatively against realities staring you in the face.

I know that the launch of the CanPL is inevitable and staring me right in the face. Those investing into this venture apparently feel confident that they have found the solution to the problem that has confounded so many Canadians for well over a century, which is how to launch and operate a professional national soccer league in Canada that will still be up and running five or six years from now. Good luck to them. Thank God its not my money.

My point of view, which you choose to describe as a continuous negative rant, and which I prefer to see as a constructive prediction, is based on 10 years of researching and studying the history of soccer in Canada, as well as having been slightly more than a casual observer of the game in Canada for the past 49 years.

Time will tell sooner enough if I am wrong or not. By the midway mark of the first season, even those die-hard supporters of clubs occupying the 6th, 7th and 8th positions in the CanPL will come to the same conclusion when they look around the half-empty stands of their respective stadiums and realize that OMG, this is not good!