Academies or Regional or The OPDL

[jpg75]

BMO Champions Cup

A tournament featuring TFCA teams against the champs of OPDL, SAAC and CAF.

https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/11/13/toronto-fc-host-inaugural-bmo-champions-cup-tournament

Results (hint: TFC win every age group)

https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/11/19/bmo-champions-cup-day-four-recap

[Kent]

3 hours ago, jpg75 said:

BMO Champions Cup

A tournament featuring TFCA teams against the champs of OPDL, SAAC and CAF.

https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/11/13/toronto-fc-host-inaugural-bmo-champions-cup-tournament

Results (hint: TFC win every age group)

https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/11/19/bmo-champions-cup-day-four-recap

I think you missed page 6 of this thread, where the results were posted and there was a big discussion about what those results meant, if anything.

[jpg75]

36 minutes ago, Kent said:

I think you missed page 6 of this thread, where the results were posted and there was a big discussion about what those results meant, if anything.

Oops, looks like i did.

[Serge]

More important then wins and loses is player development. Are some clubs losing because they are emphasizing certain concepts rather then simply going for wins? What might be more informative is which clubs are sending players on to one of the mls academies or specifically tfc and/or which clubs develop kids that are accepted to European academies and/or which clubs send kids to the ncaa and pros? In trying to decide where to send my son to play I would sooner send him to the club that has had success in moving kids on to one of the above then to the team that has a better winning %. If someone had data on this sort of developmental success I'd be very interested 

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, Serge said:

More important then wins and loses is player development. Are some clubs losing because they are emphasizing certain concepts rather then simply going for wins? What might be more informative is which clubs are sending players on to one of the mls academies or specifically tfc and/or which clubs develop kids that are accepted to European academies and/or which clubs send kids to the ncaa and pros? In trying to decide where to send my son to play I would sooner send him to the club that has had success in moving kids on to one of the above then to the team that has a better winning %. If someone had data on this sort of developmental success I'd be very interested 

There is no easy answer unfortunately. Different clubs use different player development processes and get different results. The generally accepted answer to "where should I send my kid?" is "get your kid into the most technically gifted group possible".  Don't rely on coaches, team history, or ex-players....that all changes. The best way to ensure your kid is growing into a talent on the field is to consistently surround him/her with the best players that are available to them...talent is the only thing that will matter to NCAA coaches and pro scouts. 

On the marco level, winning doesn't matter except that it does. There are u15 teams out there that play a deep 4-1-4-1 and play the ball through the air to an unusually tall 14 year old constantly to win games. Texans SC Houston won the u18 USSDA title this year by using this tactic. However, these teams are getting few and far between. While Canada and the US still have a disappointing lack of talented youth coaches, the vast majority of academy coaches today are at least competent and play a positive brand of soccer. If we are talking USSDA, I'd say only 10-15% of teams are playing win at all costs soccer. So while no parent should be deterred by a bad record or swayed solely by a good record, the record of a team is pretty helpful in differentiating the quality of talent in the "positive soccer" academies.

[Kent]

One of the things I like a lot about L1O is that they occasionally release info on players that have moved on from the league to get pro contracts. Unfortunately it doesn't come close to covering all the youth team options, but some of the bigger clubs you can see how often they promote players from L1O to pro, so that is helpful. It would be great if OPDL, SAAC, etc. leagues would do this as well (I don't know if they give this info out or not, but I hope that is the way of the future).

[Protega]

Apparently SAAC will be running the OASL next season.  I wonder what they were offered to go along with this, given that none of the SAAC academies were willing to participate this past season.

On a side note, the U17 division of the Sigma Showcase tomorrow and Friday will have a few head-to-head games between SAAC and OPDL teams.

[Pirlo21]

Time will tell if this is good or bad for SAAC and its membership. Will all OASL team automatically qualify to play in SAAC? Or do they have to meet specific standards to play. Did SAAC loosen their standars to allow OASL teams to play? Hopefully not. Maybe teams to be tiered in SAAC? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Kent]

What is OASL? My apologies if this has been mentioned earlier. Is that supposed to be the level below OPDL? Or is it a non OSA league?

[Saviola7]

18 minutes ago, Kent said:

What is OASL? My apologies if this has been mentioned earlier. Is that supposed to be the level below OPDL? Or is it a non OSA league?

You drew up a pyramid yourself on page 3 of this thread . Anyway, it is a OS run academy league. OS claims that it is a level below OPDL.

Also, it would be nice if one could find the results of the sigma showcase online somewhere.

 

[Kent]

17 hours ago, Saviola7 said:

You drew up a pyramid yourself on page 3 of this thread .

Ha. If a guy drawing up the pyramid can't remember how everything works together, then it's too convoluted!

[Serge]

Tier 1 and 2 teams in revamped OASL:

http://www.ontariosoccer.net/news_article/show/878443?referrer_id=2958561

[HfxCeltic]

Not sure where to post this, but can someone explain what the existing Canadian Soccer League is about? I never see it mentioned here, while L1O and PLSQ are raved about. I know nothing about its relationship with L1O or if they're on the same quality level, but they're in the same region; wouldn't it make sense to merge and expand the league/player pool? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Soccer_League

[Kent]

12 minutes ago, HfxCeltic said:

Not sure where to post this, but can someone explain what the existing Canadian Soccer League is about? I never see it mentioned here, while L1O and PLSQ are raved about. I know nothing about its relationship with L1O or if they're on the same quality level, but they're in the same region; wouldn't it make sense to merge and expand the league/player pool? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Soccer_League

That is a rogue league that had it's sanctioning removed a few years ago. It's rife with match fixing and most, if not quite all of us on this board would love to see that league finally fold.

[Gopherbashi]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

That is a rogue league that had it's sanctioning removed a few years ago. It's rife with match fixing and most, if not quite all of us on this board would love to see that league finally fold.

My desire to see that league fold is tempered by my desire to keep all the match-fixers bottled up in one place.

[Kent]

7 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

My desire to see that league fold is tempered by my desire to keep all the match-fixers bottled up in one place.

Fair point!

[Serge]

I've been reading on some Canadian soccer forums that the osa is moving to have the opdl and the recently expanded oasl combined into a possible tiered league as early as 2019. Has anyone heard anything about this. 

[BreadBoy]

16 hours ago, Serge said:

I've been reading on some Canadian soccer forums that the osa is moving to have the opdl and the recently expanded oasl combined into a possible tiered league as early as 2019. Has anyone heard anything about this. 

There are other Canadian soccer forums?

[Serge]

5 hours ago, BreadBoy said:

There are other Canadian soccer forums?

Here are two that I recently viewed:

http://cfu.freeforums.net/board/33/youth-development

https://www.bcsoccercentral.com

[Kent]

On 11/20/2017 at 11:34 AM, Kent said:

Results from said BMO Champions Cup are in.

https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/11/19/bmo-champions-cup-day-four-recap

<snipped for brevity>

So in all 4 age groups it finished
1. TFC
2. OPDL/OSL
3. SAAC
4. CAF

CAF lost all their games, SAAC only ever beat CAF, OPDL/OSL only ever lost to TFC, and TFC won all their games. Perhaps we have our pyramid after all?

This tournament is about to happen again. https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2018/11/09/toronto-fc-host-second-annual-bmo-champions-cup-tournament

This year it's all OPDL and OASL which I believe is the new SAAC? Did it also replace CAF or did CAF get disinvited? It will be interesting to see if the results are more spread around this year than they were last year. If I remember correctly, this will be the last time TFCA will be in this representing OPDL. I believe they are moving to the USSDA right?

[Kent]

5 minutes ago, Kent said:

This tournament is about to happen again. https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2018/11/09/toronto-fc-host-second-annual-bmo-champions-cup-tournament

This year it's all OPDL and OASL which I believe is the new SAAC? Did it also replace CAF or did CAF get disinvited? It will be interesting to see if the results are more spread around this year than they were last year. If I remember correctly, this will be the last time TFCA will be in this representing OPDL. I believe they are moving to the USSDA right?

To answer my own question by referring to my attempt to draw clarity to these questions a year and a half ago, that I can never seem to remember. This is how the board here seems to think the pyramid(s) are structured.

                                   OPDL                          SAAC
                                    /         \                        /         \
Regional leagues (clubs)    OASL (academies)        CAF

 

So I guess that means CAF teams were dropped. SAAC seems a bit murkier to me since there is a partnership with OPDL (or OSA) on OASL. I can't wrap my brain around all of this right now.

[Saviola7]

17 hours ago, Kent said:

To answer my own question by referring to my attempt to draw clarity to these questions a year and a half ago, that I can never seem to remember. This is how the board here seems to think the pyramid(s) are structured.

                                   OPDL                          SAAC
                                    /         \                        /         \
Regional leagues (clubs)    OASL (academies)        CAF

 

So I guess that means CAF teams were dropped. SAAC seems a bit murkier to me since there is a partnership with OPDL (or OSA) on OASL. I can't wrap my brain around all of this right now.

Allow me to enlighten the best I can:

• TFCA already has three teams in the USSDA - only two teams played OPDL this year. For whatever reason, they put only their U14, U16, and U18 teams in there (these classifications are based on the 2018 Ontario season; the USSDA season is offset, so they are in the U15, U17, and U19 divisions). Their U13 and U15 teams played in the OPDL U14 and U17 divisions respectively - the U15s won and are generally recognised as being a very strong cohort. It is uncertain at this point what they will do next season.
• SAAC took over administration of OASL, so they have effectively merged under the OASL moniker. When this happened a few strong CAF teams (Mapola, CAQ) moved to OASL, so CAF is a shell of it's former self with only a handful of divisions.

Note that the OSA specifically says that OASL is below OPDL:

 

[Protega]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 3:23 PM, Kent said:

This tournament is about to happen again. https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2018/11/09/toronto-fc-host-second-annual-bmo-champions-cup-tournament

This year it's all OPDL and OASL which I believe is the new SAAC? Did it also replace CAF or did CAF get disinvited? It will be interesting to see if the results are more spread around this year than they were last year. If I remember correctly, this will be the last time TFCA will be in this representing OPDL. I believe they are moving to the USSDA right?

So TFC won the 2003 age group and Pro Stars (OASL) won the 2005 age group.  Both finals were TFC vs. OASL teams, with no OPDL team making it past the group round (despite making up half the field in each age group).  Hearing that OS is not happy with the results or performances.

[Vic]

Interesting argument with regards to youth team compensation on transfers. If it happens in the U.S. is Canada next?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/03/christian-pulisic-transfer-us-soccer-financials.

 

The [Christian] Pulisic family likely celebrated their son’s life-changing move to Stamford Bridge, but what of Christian’s youth team, the PA Classics? They should, in theory, be due a solidarity payment estimated to be around $547,000, a vast sum to any youth club.

According to Fifa regulations, when a player is sold overseas, up to 5% of the transfer fee is set aside to be distributed to the youth clubs involved in his training and is known as a solidarity payment. The exact amount depends on how much time the player spent at the youth clubs between his 12th and 23rd birthday.

The PA Classics are unlikely to receive that, however, due to the fact the US does not participate in Fifa’s solidarity payments system. At the time of writing, Washington based youth club Crossfire Premier have submitted a petition to Fifa arguing that the club is entitled to collect solidarity payments for its involvement in DeAndre Yedlin’s development.

This is viewed by many as a landmark moment in US Soccer. If Fifa finds in favor of Crossfire they would be entitled to a substantial sum of money from MLS in the wake of Yedlin’s transfer to Tottenham Hotspur in 2014.

“We could have $20m, $30m worth of claims,” Crossfire’s attorney, Lance Reich, told the Athletic back in October. “We’re going to have a Madoff moment in American soccer. Everyone is going to wake up and say, ‘Oh my God – how did it get this way? This is far from about the money anymore. Are we Fifa clubs, or are we not Fifa clubs?”

[Saviola7]

17 minutes ago, Vic said:

Interesting argument with regards to youth team compensation on transfers. If it happens in the U.S. is Canada next?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/03/christian-pulisic-transfer-us-soccer-financials.

 

The [Christian] Pulisic family likely celebrated their son’s life-changing move to Stamford Bridge, but what of Christian’s youth team, the PA Classics? They should, in theory, be due a solidarity payment estimated to be around $547,000, a vast sum to any youth club.

According to Fifa regulations, when a player is sold overseas, up to 5% of the transfer fee is set aside to be distributed to the youth clubs involved in his training and is known as a solidarity payment. The exact amount depends on how much time the player spent at the youth clubs between his 12th and 23rd birthday.

The PA Classics are unlikely to receive that, however, due to the fact the US does not participate in Fifa’s solidarity payments system. At the time of writing, Washington based youth club Crossfire Premier have submitted a petition to Fifa arguing that the club is entitled to collect solidarity payments for its involvement in DeAndre Yedlin’s development.

This is viewed by many as a landmark moment in US Soccer. If Fifa finds in favor of Crossfire they would be entitled to a substantial sum of money from MLS in the wake of Yedlin’s transfer to Tottenham Hotspur in 2014.

“We could have $20m, $30m worth of claims,” Crossfire’s attorney, Lance Reich, told the Athletic back in October. “We’re going to have a Madoff moment in American soccer. Everyone is going to wake up and say, ‘Oh my God – how did it get this way? This is far from about the money anymore. Are we Fifa clubs, or are we not Fifa clubs?”

I think this is such a huge piece of the puzzle. Clubs would be encouraged to promote their best players and provide avenues for talented players from poorer families. In principle you could fund a big chunk of high-performance programs just from solidarity payments.

 

It seems that the biggest obstruction to this is the MLS player's union who is adamantly opposed to participation. They feel it would affect player mobility. Not sure what the CSA's official stance on this is though.