Academies or Regional or The OPDL

[Kent]

I had no idea there were SAAC teams outside of Ontario.

I think it's good to have cross-provincial cooperation, but it's still disheartening to see even more unsanctioned leagues popping up. This is all such a big mess.

[Saviola7]

The out-of-province teams do not play in their league, so I'm not sure what it means for FCB Vancouver and FCB Edmonton to be a part of SAAC.

[L.MODRIC]

its discussing how some people and associations are preventing the growth of the game 

 

LET THE KIDS PLAY

[L.MODRIC]

one question I have for who ever may be able to answer it 

 

why does TFC prevent there academy kids to play for teams during the winter(indoor )season 

 

Are the academy kids tied to TFC Academy through a contract?

[Saviola7]

I believe they are tied through a contract.

TFCA teams play in enough tournaments throughout the off-season that I don't think not playing in a winter league is much of a concern (although perhaps they should be playing futsal).

[L.MODRIC]

from what I know they don't do anything during the winter months with there academy kids 

[Kent]

I don't know what their policies are or what their schedule is like, but I'm pretty certain I've seen academy kids training before my indoor games in Winter months (2 years ago is when I was seeing this). I've also played against a TFC II/III player in my men's league over the Winter (1 year ago).

Do you personally know a kid that is being stopped from playing soccer over the winter? Since you don't know if a contract is signed or not, I assume you aren't a parent of an academy player.

[L.MODRIC]

i know a few kids in the academy that are being prevented to play by TFC during the winter season and I'm talking about young age(10-14 year olds)

 

not bringing up anything just thought someone on here more of TFC policies/rules.....thats it 

[TecnicoPaixao]

Lots of good talk about multiple leagues, clubs and academies.  Talk is good, I've enjoyed reading all of it.  After watching many games in 2017 over multiple age groups I can't help but feel that all of this has created a massive watered down development environment.  We need more consolidation, raise the overall product.

[04dad]

it is a very watered down playing system, every league club just wants your registration fees

i have done saac, caf, looked into opdl, the talent level is all dispersed 4-5 good kids 5 decent kids and the rest are registration fillers 

[TecnicoPaixao]

You nailed it, 4-5 kids who can play and some 50/50 and the rest is dollars, that why we see so many swings in the quality of squads.  2 players leave and it just tanks.

[Saviola7]

Back on page 5, I gave a mid-season update on some analysis on the margins of victory. Now that the seasons are over, I looked at all of the results:

"My hypothesis is that a competitive league should have few blowouts. I compared boys SAAC U14 with OPDL U14 and OASL U14 and with CAF U13 (no U14 CAF division). I also threw in OYSL boys U14 from 2012."

OPDL:

a # of matches = 180

b # of more than 5 goal wins = 18

b/a = 10%

SAAC:

a # of matches = 134

b # of more than 5 goal wins = 23

b/a = 17.16%

OASL:

a # of matches = 16

b # of more than 5 goal wins = 1

b/a = 6.25%

CAF:

a # of matches = 30

b # of more than 5 goal wins = 5

b/a = 16.67%

OYSL (2012):

a # of matches = 67

b # of more than 5 goal wins = 5

b/a = 7.46%

 

Not sure if that changes much, but I thought I'd give the final numbers. 

[04dad]

the bmo event coming up this week, will be the first time some of these leagues will be playing against each other.

its a nice start  and hopefully the silos that the osa has created can be reversed

[Kent]

On 13/11/2017 at 4:34 PM, 04dad said:

the bmo event coming up this week, will be the first time some of these leagues will be playing against each other.

its a nice start  and hopefully the silos that the osa has created can be reversed

Results from said BMO Champions Cup are in.

https://www.torontofc.ca/post/2017/11/19/bmo-champions-cup-day-four-recap

Full Results and Final Standings:

2003/U14

1. TFC Academy 2003 (14-2-4) – OPDL U15 Charity Shield Champion
2. Oakville SC (14-1-5) – OPDL U14 Charity Shield Runner-up
3. Eurostar Academy Lions (15-2-2) – SAAC U14 Academy Cup Champion
4. Ginga Soccer Academy (7-5-2) – CAF U15 Division Runner-up

            · TFCA def Eurostar Lions – 7-0

            · Oakville SC def Ginga – 5-0

            · Eurostar Lions def Ginga – 1-0

            · TFCA def Oakville SC – 2-0

2002/U15

1. TFC Academy 2002 (14-4-2) – OPDL U16 Charity Shield Runner-up
2. Richmond Hill SC (13-3-4) – OPDL U15 Charity Shield Runner-up
3. London FA (15-5-0) – SAAC U15 Academy Champion
4. Brampton Real International FC (11-1-2) – CAF U15 Division Champion; Ontario Cup U15 Champion

            · TFCA def Brampton Real – 13-0

            · Richmond Hill SC def London FA – 6-0

            · London FA def Brampton Real – 10-0

            · TFCA def Richmond Hill SC – 5-0

2001/U16

1. TFC Academy 2001 (12-0-0) – OSL U21 Provincial Central Champion
2. Vaughan SC (13-3-4) – OPDL U16 Charity Shield Champion
3. FC Durham Academy (16-2-1) – SAAC U16 Academy Cup Champion
4. KNSC Lions United (10-1-3) – CAF U16 Division Champion

            · Vaughan SC def FC Durham Academy – 2-1

            · TFCA def KNSC Lions United – 6-1

            · FC Durham Academy def KNSC Lions United – 3-1

            · TFCA def Vaughan SC – 1-0

1997+/U20

1. TFC III (14-5-3) – League1 Ontario Men’s West 3rd Place
2. Vaughan Azzurri (12-1-1) – OSL U21 Provincial Elite Champion
3. Sigma FC A1 (16-1-2) – SAAC U20 Academy Cup Champion
4. Toronto Youth FC (12-2-1) – CAF U20 Super Group Champion

            · Vaughan Azzurri def Sigma FC A1 – 2-2 (5-4)

            · TFC III def Toronto Youth FC – 6-1

            · Sigma FC A1 def Toronto Youth FC – 3-1

            · TFC III def Vaughan Azzurri – 6-0

 

So in all 4 age groups it finished
1. TFC
2. OPDL/OSL
3. SAAC
4. CAF

CAF lost all their games, SAAC only ever beat CAF, OPDL/OSL only ever lost to TFC, and TFC won all their games. Perhaps we have our pyramid after all?

[Saviola7]

Indeed. I was concerned it would legitimize the academy stream, but with results this obvious maybe will see more buy-in for OPDL?

 

Not sure the hoopla was needed though (OZ, Stalteri there) and not sure if it is needed as an annual event. OZ and Stalteri would be better off watching OPDL matches than anything else.

[Kent]

58 minutes ago, Saviola7 said:

Indeed. I was concerned it would legitimize the academy stream, but with results this obvious maybe will see more buy-in for OPDL?

 

Not sure the hoopla was needed though (OZ, Stalteri there) and not sure if it is needed as an annual event. OZ and Stalteri would be better off watching OPDL matches than anything else.

Any time you get the national team coach watching you play and talking to your team afterwards has got to be inspirational to young players. I think it's fantastic those guys were there.

I completely agree with you on the concern you had before the tournament started. As for whether the tournament should be held every year, perhaps it just needs some tweeking. Given the results from this year, maybe next year more OPDL teams get invited than this time around. If CAF bombs out again then stop inviting them. If SAAC is then clearly a level below then maybe the tournament stops being that important, or can be repurposed and teams from outside of the province can be brought in.

[Saviola7]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Any time you get the national team coach watching you play and talking to your team afterwards has got to be inspirational to young players. I think it's fantastic those guys were there.

I completely agree with you on the concern you had before the tournament started. As for whether the tournament should be held every year, perhaps it just needs some tweeking. Given the results from this year, maybe next year more OPDL teams get invited than this time around. If CAF bombs out again then stop inviting them. If SAAC is then clearly a level below then maybe the tournament stops being that important, or can be repurposed and teams from outside of the province can be brought in.

Actually, perhaps HP leagues + MLS academy teams + national champions (and runners up) in a tournament. That would be pretty cool.

[Pirlo21]

 SAAC is clearly below OPDL? I don't think you can safely say that. Especially only after 1 game. It is clear that TFC has some of the "All Star" players in the region, and is a level above, but after that, it's not as clear. Some background of the SAAC U14 team - There were 2 teams from the 2003's that played up in the U15 level this season. Rush and Sigma. They, like TFC did not compete in the 2003 league matches, instead competed in the 2002 level. Eurostar did not compete against these teams to win the U14 finals. The best U14 (2003) team in SAAC did not compete at this Champions Cup Tournament.                                                                                                                                London FA U15 was clearly over matched vs Richmond Hill.                                                                                                                                                      Durham U16 was beaten 2-1 by Vaughan - and Sigma U20 lost to Vaughan in penalties. Each game hardly shows a clear level above by either group. If anything, it shows that we need to have more head to head matches. The close competition will only make them better! I don't think you can clearly define a level of a league based on results of a 2 game tourney. I don't think you will have people rushing to join OPDL from SAAC based on these results. Although this can be used as a very general measuring stick, you shouldn't measure an entire level of any league from one result. You need a few more top teams from each league, maybe top 4 teams, with a round robin and elimination rounds to get a better picture of where they compare. Not saying that OPDL is not above SAAC. I just don't think you really know.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Most importantly, the leaders of these organisations came together and agreed to participate in this tournament. So lets hope that this relationship grows, and more open competition will be created because of it. Regardless of what leagues they play in.   

                                                                                                                            

[Kent]

On 2017-11-20 at 7:06 PM, Pirlo21 said:

SAAC is clearly below OPDL? I don't think you can safely say that.

I am guessing this is in response to me saying

On 2017-11-20 at 12:50 PM, Kent said:

Given the results from this year, maybe next year more OPDL teams get invited than this time around. If CAF bombs out again then stop inviting them. If SAAC is then clearly a level below then maybe the tournament stops being that important, or can be repurposed and teams from outside of the province can be brought in.

I agree 100% with you, but I didn't say what you thought I said. I was talking about continuing the tournament in the future and hypothetically speaking if in those tournaments the results are consistently in favour of one league (OPDL) over the others (CAF and SAAC) then maybe those leagues could lose their invites. I even talked about bringing in more OPDL teams much like your top 4 suggestion.

I am in so unbelievably on the same page with you in terms of "we need to have more head to head matches". In particular we need to merge the fractured league system so that the best teams are all playing against each other. The way it is now the leagues are all diluted which hampers each club's ability to develop players.

At least that's how I see it from the outside. Everything I know about these leagues is based on what I read online, so I obviously won't have as much insight as people that are actually involved in youth soccer.

[Protega]

I don't think you can read too much into a couple of games.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought SAAC teams had won most of their head-to-head matches against OPDL teams at showcase tournaments this past summer?  Even at that, I wouldn't read too much into those games either, since they were only a handful of games.

As for SAAC not necessarily being represented by their strongest, don't all of Sigma's teams play up a year?  I was under the impression that SAAC wasn't necessarily represented by their strongest teams at the 2002 or 2001 age groups either.

 

[Kent]

In the listing of the teams it says "Academy Cup Champion" for each of the SAAC teams, with the exception of one that just says "Academy Champion". I'm not sure if that last one is a typo, or if there is a Cup competition and a league competition. If they were sending their cup champions rather than league champions, then that would likely result in weaker teams, since it's easier for upsets in a Cup competition than for a weak team to finish ahead of a stronger team in the standings over a season.

[Saviola7]

Should have anticipated this. No matter what the result some people wouldn't accept the result.

For SAAC, the Academy Cup is simply the Spring Champion vs. the Fall Champion (for U14 and U15, the Spring champion won, but they were still top 4 in the Fall). As such, it was effectively their strongest teams.

Consider:

• It may be true that Sigma and Rush play a year up (hard to verify because they don't really publish that info online), SAAC is therefore at worst sending their 3rd best team; you wouldn't expect a huge drop from 1st/2nd to 3rd. At U14 OPDL sent their 2nd place team since North Toronto were already committed to another tournament.
• OPDL consistently finished ahead of SAAC at all applicable levels. In many cases OPDL teams won their opening match by a wide margin - it's not too much of a stretch to assume that if Oakville beats Ginga 7 - 0 and Eurostar can only manage a 1 - 0 victory over Ginga, Oakville could easily handle Eurostar.
• Yes, OPDL went 2 - 4 against SAAC in the Umbro showcase (the only tournament they played against each other). The four losses occurred in a U15 group that featured Rush* (3rd place SAAC spring, 1st place SAAC fall), London FA (1st place SAAC spring, 3rd place SAAC fall), Unionville (12th of 13 OPDL), and Markham (10th of 13 OPDL). So yes, the best of SAAC can beat the worst of ODPL. The two wins were 3rd and 4th place OPDL teams beating a 6th/8th place SAAC team*. I would argue the results of those H-to-H matches are inconclusive at best, and it is better to look at the overall records mentioned earlier in this thread that clearly favour OPDL.

* - may not be the correct team due to playing up, but still probably a strong team

My question I guess is this: What would have been enough to concede the point? If it was top 3 teams in each and OPDL consistently finished ahead with each team in each division?

If this doesn't establish OPDL ahead of SAAC and CAF, at least it indicates that the academies are at best level or worst. I do not think that it is likely at this point that the academies are somehow better than OPDL. I am confident that most of the best players are there.

18 hours ago, Kent said:

In particular we need to merge the fractured league system so that the best teams are all playing against each other.

If the above means watering down OPDL standards (e.g. viable girls and grassroots programs) I am totally against it. If the academies can meet the standard, by all means. I think this "need" is quite overstated though.

[Kent]

7 minutes ago, Saviola7 said:

If the above means watering down OPDL standards (e.g. viable girls and grassroots programs) I am totally against it. If the academies can meet the standard, by all means. I think this "need" is quite overstated though.

Like I've said before, I'm an outsider so I really don't know the ins and outs. I agree that we shouldn't want to water down standards, but we also shouldn't want to water down the competition. If these academies can't meet OPDL requirements, I'd rather they be in the next tier down from OPDL within the system so that players and parents know where the clubs/academies stand, instead of muddying the water by having 2 or 3 (or 4?) different systems with no clear pyramid. I am presuming there are more relaxed standards for the next level down, but I don't know, maybe not for the areas you mention (girls and grassroots).

I'd just love for our best players and coaches to be part of OPDL, and our next best players and coaches to be in whatever is the next best league (or regional set of leagues) below that, etc. So that everyone can play at their appropriate level.

[Vic]

Just read the opening line of the first post in this entire thread:

"Considering the price to participate in Ontario Soccer has gone up, what option or path should a young player take."

The direction is reversed for European hockey players.

[Protega]

8 hours ago, Saviola7 said:

Should have anticipated this. No matter what the result some people wouldn't accept the result.

For SAAC, the Academy Cup is simply the Spring Champion vs. the Fall Champion (for U14 and U15, the Spring champion won, but they were still top 4 in the Fall). As such, it was effectively their strongest teams.

 

My questions were rhetorical - the player information is on SAAC's website, and all of Sigma's teams play up a year.  So their 2003 team would not have participated in the U14 Academy Cup.  Those weren't the strongest teams at any of the age groups.

I think you need to take this less personally though.  As I said, I wouldn't read too much into the BMO Champions tournament games, nor would I read too much into the Umbro showcase games.  There would have to be many more head-to-head games to be able to conclude one way or the other.  They have really only started playing head-to-head this summer (and even that has been very limited).

I personally think that if you took the top half of SAAC and the top half of OPDL, you would have a much stronger league than either league currently.  There are also teams all over the province that don't compete in either, but would definitely do well.  In a nutshell, our system is too fragmented.