Academies or Regional or The OPDL

[Kent]

35 minutes ago, Saviola7 said:

Back on topic, a few OPDL teams are facing non-OPDL teams in tournaments in the next two weeks, so it should be informative. Also telling is that a number of former OPDL teams are in the Ontario cup, so assuming they didn't lose too many of their players, it should also give an idea of relative level. No (as far as I can tell) SAAC teams in Ontario cup, but a few CAF teams. 

Cup games and tournaments are not completely indicative (upsets are possible, just look at the FA cup), but let's see if a trend emerges.

_______________

I found this document regarding OASL:

http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0121/6734/FAQ_April_2017.pdf

"The OASL fits into the player development structure similar to where Regional Leagues fit into the Club Soccer Stream. Just as Club regional leagues, the OASL is a level below the OPDL. When comparing to the OPDL, OPDL standards are much higher. The primary differences are in the areas of standards, oversight, objectives and placement within the Talented Pathway. OPDL is the pinnacle of youth player development."

and

"OASL private academies cannot participate in the Club Soccer Stream’s Ontario Cup competition as they will have their own Ontario Academy League Championship Cup"

______________

Finally, TFC is now an official sponsor of OPDL:

http://www.ontariosoccer.net/news_article/show/782686?referrer_id=2958561

So OASL is an academy league, but they are saying it's just below OPDL... but SAAC seems to kind of be the OPDL equivalent for academy teams? What is CAF? Or maybe the better question is, can anybody out there draw up a pyramid for youth soccer in Ontario? Or more likely, 2 pyramids (club and academy).

[Saviola7]

The pyramid now looks like:

                        OPDL

|                                              |

Regional Leagues (clubs)      OASL (academies)

 

SAAC and CAF are not OSA sanctioned leagues (although it is made up of mostly ORA academies, the former more so than the latter). They are simply loose associations of for-profit academies that don't fit fully into the Ontario club system. Given that they seem to have higher standards and quality, I would say SAAC is de facto the OPDL equivalent for academies, but there is no stated difference in level. 

[Protega]

The SAAC academies are definitely stronger than those in the OASL (whether because they are more established, or whatever reason).  I've heard SAAC wasn't impressed with the OASL set-up, which is why they are continuing with their own league (even though all SAAC members are ORA's).  I've heard from various sources that in general the SAAC academies didn't want to leave SAAC because the level of play seems much higher than OASL, plus some were concerned that if they left SAAC and OASL doesn't continue after the 2 year pilot, they might be left with no league to play in.

[Kent]

Thanks @Saviola7 and @Protega

So OASL is OSA sanctioned? Is it a regional league or province-wide?

If I understand correctly, if we make a de facto pyramid, it seems like it might have two points. Something like this?

                                     OPDL                          SAAC
                                    /         \                        /         \
Regional leagues (clubs)    OASL (academies)        CAF

 

Or would CAF be considered a lower level than OASL? Maybe that's hard to tell since OASL is new.

[Saviola7]

OASL is provice-wide. I'm sure it depends who you talk to, but I reckon that your diagram is close to correct. CAF sent an all-star team to Dubai this weekend (coached by DeRo), so I'm sure they think they're pretty hot, although notably they went 0 - 3 on day 1.

[Protega]

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎21 at 11:11 AM, Saviola7 said:

Back on topic, a few OPDL teams are facing non-OPDL teams in tournaments in the next two weeks, so it should be informative.

West Ottawa is hosting the Wesley Clover Cup this weekend - from the scores posted so far, it looks like the OPDL teams have a losing record against non-OPDL teams.  I think it's from U13 - U15 for boys and goes up to U16 for girls, and would include some Quebec teams as well.

[Saviola7]

Really? I have OPDL going 7 - 1 - 7 (WDL) in that tournament. 6-1-6 if you exclude teams playing up, 5 - 0 - 4 if you exclude Quebec teams. Not spectacular, I know.

Oakville ran the table quite easily at Cherry Beach (not sure if the other OPDL clubs sent their OPDL teams, but that Oakville team is for sure OPDL).

[Saviola7]

This weekend's results are in and between Wesley Clover and Cherry Beach, OPDL (that I am aware of) teams are 19-6-11. Excluding teams playing up, you have 14-5-7.

This weekend there are a few more tournaments before the OPDL season begins; will update then.

[Kent]

I assume that's won-drawn-lost?

[Saviola7]

The second weekend's results are in for OPDL teams (WDL)

This weekend: 9-4-3, (7-4-2 if you don't include teams playing up)

Total over two weekends: 28-10-14 (21-9-10 excluding teams playing up)

 

Also, over two weekends at American tournaments/showcases (from what I can tell) for U13 - U16 divisions:

OPDL: 6-6-6 (1.6)

non-OPDL club: 22-11-10 (2.6)

SAAC: 7-4-2 (2.5)

CAF: 1-1-2 (1)

OASL: 1-1-1 (2)

Other Academy: 1-2-2 (1.5)

Where the number in parenthesis indicates the average level of the entrants (most American tournaments have up to five tiers/levels). Not sure what to conclude, but from a pure competitive standpoint OPDL teams haven't done too poorly. I do not doubt there are some good teams in other leagues, but based on results alone, it's hard to definitively say other competitions are better than OPDL.

Next up is the Umbro Showcase; based on the accepted teams listed, there are SAAC, OASL, OPDL, and regional teams. Will the OPDL teams be in a different division? We shall see.

[Saviola7]

I should also mention that FC London (OASL) Girls U16 beat WOSC (OPDL) Girls U16 3-0 in a tournament in New York a few weeks ago. I didn't include it because it was before I began tracking, but since it is a rare case of OASL vs. OPDL head-to-head, it should be noted.

[vrowley]

I can provide some comments on what I saw in 2016 in the 2001 boys age group.

I saw an important number of games, or part of games, involving teams of various leagues i.e. CAF, OPDL, Regional Leagues and SAAC.

From what I saw, each leagues seemed to have more or less an equal number of good teams playing good soccer, some teams getting results by playing to win, if you know what I mean, and struggling teams.

My feeling is that the best top tier league would have been a league with the best teams of all of the systems mentioned above. I also think that you will find good programs with a high training to game ratio with good coaching as well as weak programs in all systems whether or not the system is standards-based.

What I think is the worst is that we don't have a system that enables the players to be challenged week in week out in game competition because the landscape is so fragmented.

[Protega]

30 minutes ago, vrowley said:

What I think is the worst is that we don't have a system that enables the players to be challenged week in week out in game competition because the landscape is so fragmented.

You mean like the OYSL?  Seriously though, for all its shortcomings, that league at least gathered many of the strongest players (although I guess there were still strong players with academies then as well).

I know that in some countries they do promotion/relegation into national/regional leagues on an aggregate basis.  So rather than a club's U15 team being promoted to the top league, the club would be promoted based on how their U17 and U15 teams did in aggregate.  If Ontario had a system something like that, I think it would reduce some of the player movement we have seen/still see.  If they feel coaches and players need to be told how often to train, etc., they can attached those standards/requirements as a condition of promotion.  Yes, results do still matter to an extent under that type of system, but if a club's teams overall are the weakest, then they probably should be dropped.

And open it up to clubs and academies.

[vrowley]

The OYSL certainly seemed to manage to attract a greater majority of the best players.

 

One way to restrict the movement of players is to put a limit to the number of players that join your club from a different club between seasons. The LSEQ, which is the counterpart of the OYSL in the province of Quebec, does this. LSEQ used to be more or less a league of regional selections. These selections were fed by clubs from U14 up. It worked fairly well for a number of years until some regions had too much talent for a single team. The federation wanted the clubs to be more structured and "stronger" and aim for "top" leagues play like in Europe and decided to change the system and put in place a promotion-relegation system. That system was put in place around 2003 if my memory is correct. The major issue people now have with this system is that it is more difficult for small regions to have a constant number of teams that can earn and maintain promotion so some good players don't manage to have the opportunity to play at the provincial level.

 

Not easy to find the best system but one thing is for sure is that from what I saw in the 2001B age group in 2016, the Quebec provincial league seemed much more balanced and the average team quality seemed to be higher than any Ontario league for that age group (I also got to see four LSEQ teams play last year in addition to see a number of CAF, OPDL, regional leagues and SAAC teams play). We however need to say that, as far as I know, there are not much for profit academies leagues in Quebec and the best players are then channeled toward the single provincial league.

[Saviola7]

On 5/1/2017 at 11:44 PM, Saviola7 said:

Next up is the Umbro Showcase; based on the accepted teams listed, there are SAAC, OASL, OPDL, and regional teams. Will the OPDL teams be in a different division? We shall see.

Umbro Showcase/Super Cup schedules are out. There are no "protected teams"; all teams mixed together at the moment. Tournament is the Victoria day weekend.

[Saviola7]

On 5/8/2017 at 8:52 AM, Saviola7 said:

Umbro Showcase/Super Cup schedules are out. There are no "protected teams"; all teams mixed together at the moment. Tournament is the Victoria day weekend.

Considering U13 - U16, this is how the clubs have fared (WDL):

OPDL: 66-16-33

OASL: 3-3-15

SAAC: 22-4-19

Non-OPDL club: 114-51-145

CAF: 2-0-1

Out of Province: 7-0-3

Other Ontario Academy: 4-0-2

OPDL fared the best by far and typically played in the more difficult division. They struggled in U16 girls and U15 boys divisions for whatever reason. Not many OASL teams participated, but it was likely a disappointment for them. SAAC didn't send any Sigma teams, but still did fine. 

Did some teams beat OPDL teams? Naturally, but on average they appear to be the stronger group of teams. I didn't do head-to-head analysis, but I think the results are sound.

[Kent]

38 minutes ago, Saviola7 said:

Considering U13 - U16, this is how the clubs have fared (WDL):

OPDL: 66-16-33

OASL: 3-3-15

SAAC: 22-4-19

Non-OPDL club: 114-51-145

CAF: 2-0-1

Out of Province: 7-0-3

Other Ontario Academy: 4-0-2

OPDL fared the best by far and typically played in the more difficult division. They struggled in U16 girls and U15 boys divisions for whatever reason. Not many OASL teams participated, but it was likely a disappointment for them. SAAC didn't send any Sigma teams, but still did fine. 

Did some teams beat OPDL teams? Naturally, but on average they appear to be the stronger group of teams. I didn't do head-to-head analysis, but I think the results are sound.

Outstanding work putting this together. I find these kinds of numbers interesting.

[Protega]

3 hours ago, Saviola7 said:

OPDL fared the best by far and typically played in the more difficult division. They struggled in U16 girls and U15 boys divisions for whatever reason. Not many OASL teams participated, but it was likely a disappointment for them. SAAC didn't send any Sigma teams, but still did fine. 

Did some teams beat OPDL teams? Naturally, but on average they appear to be the stronger group of teams. I didn't do head-to-head analysis, but I think the results are sound.

Looks to me like there were 6 head-to-head games between OPDL and SAAC (4 in the boys U15 age group, and 2 in the boys U16 age group).  SAAC won all four U15 games, while OPDL won both U16 games.  I would say too small a sample of head-to-head games to read too much into, particularly given some of the teams that weren't there.

[04dad]

interesting topic thought i would join in and throw my 2 cents

i have very little experience with the rep program as i pulled my kid out very early once i saw

the parents/coaches goals were to win at u10/u11 we basically kicked the ball as hard as we can and have our biggest kids play as strikers and hope they win there 50/50 balls

this style of play is played probably by 90pct of teams including opdl and rep teams

from my sons age group that we played in saac most teams "TRY" to play from the back and kids are encouraged to go 1v1 the coaches are not remote controllers. you still get here and there but not as bad as the rep coaches

if you watch a lot of games you will see a lot of kids who are in this "elite" opdl there first touch and technical abilities are horrible.  

But they do win there games.. all it takes is one mistake, a big stronger striker beats his man and boom they win

this exact same reason why as a nation we cant develop players.

as far as the topic

i dont know whats best, some opdl rep saac caf teams are very good but it is so dilluted

this year we are in caf, we played in umbro lost our 2nd game 2-1 we played a french team who was playing in there first game of the day and it was our 2nd after 5 hrs in between, they scored off a counter from our own corner kick, we had 60-70pct possesion and shots on net in favor yet we lost. our team was so mad at themselves

we beat our next opponent 11-0.

same team went to the finals and also almost beat the best team in the tournament, there was no opdl team in our age group so i cant compare.

 

 

[Saviola7]

Let me start by saying I'm sure everyone is trying to do what's in the best interest of their children and only want what's best for them.

 

The OPDL is under so much scrutiny, it will be difficult to be successful. If they play-to-develop and don't win, people say that the quality is poor. If they win games, people say they are just trying to win.

OPDL game video:

SAAC game video:

CAF game video: 

 

 

The second two videos are highlights, so the comparison isn't exactly apples to apples, but I see a similar mix of kick and run and build up play (certainly the academies are not innocent of it). The first goal against Whitby is due to playing out of the back too much while the first goal against Perimeter is all kick and run.

If the provincial teams are mainly made up of OPDL players people say that scouting is poor. If they weren't, people would say that OPDL is crap.

If they don't charge enough to pay their coaches and don't get National B coaches, then people say their coaching is crap, if they do, people say it's too expensive.

The OSA has set this up as a D1 league. You could say that some CSL teams are better than League 1 Ontario teams, but would you ever say that CSL teams should play League 1 teams in some "open" competition? No, you would say that serious players should play in L1O. The OSA cannot prevent people from running their own businesses, but they certainly don't have to endorse a model that runs contrary to their objectives.

[Big_M]

^ Opdl game: passing and touches need to be better but what they are trying to do is good, building up, play on the ground, through balls...this is not kick and run soccer

[04dad]

all programs will have the kick and chase/ build up, i wasnt trying to say 1 league is better than the other

it was more of a general observation.

as my son is in this age group i have seen academy play from saac and caf and some rep plays

we felt him learning technical skills and having a good touch is more important than trying to win games and trophys at u10 u11 u12, the talent level is quite diluted.

 

right now i can only speak of the caf game that we played umbro cup and handful of exhibition

 

 

 

[04dad]

On 5/26/2017 at 4:44 PM, Big_M said:

^ Opdl game: passing and touches need to be better but what they are trying to do is good, building up, play on the ground, through balls...this is not kick and run soccer

vaughan looked good, however whitby looked like they are trying to play american football

hands up, body checks finishing there kicks and going through opponents, referee was terrible

this is a 5k program which is supposed to be best of the best?? again i am not saying all opdl teams are like this

all the coaching licences in the world is not going to help our youth players when a lot of programs are calling themselves elite yet its basically a 5k rep team..

 

saac game was more of a highlight but its also same you get some good ones bad ones..

i will however say that sigma currently is an ncaa factory for canadian kids

 

 

 

 

[Saviola7]

Clearly we need to find some game video for each competition, and score each play on quality of pass, quality of touch, decision making, etc. Evidently that's the only way to convince people who has the best players.

 

... or players can simply follow the pathway as set out by Ontario Soccer.

[Protega]

1 hour ago, Saviola7 said:

... or players can simply follow the pathway as set out by Ontario Soccer.

I think the pathway the Ontario Soccer has set is one of the reasons no one will ever agree.  My understanding is the reason the SAAC academies didn't want to participate in the OASL is that Ontario Soccer is adamant that OPDL must be considered the top level of soccer in Ontario.  I'm not sure Soccer Ontario is right on that point though.  I agree that all streams have some very strong, some average and some very weak teams/players, but my personal opinion is that the strongest SAAC programs are probably stronger than the strongest OPDL programs (from what I have seen).

They could probably solve this by lifting the financial statement audit requirement (didn't one of the OPDL clubs fail to meet their financial obligations despite having their financial statements audited?) and by removing the requirement that programs have teams at both genders (realistically, the fact that a program also has girls teams, for example, does nothing to further the development of the boys teams, and vice versa).  The problem then is that there are probably too many programs to operate a proper league.

I still think the best solution is to go to a system of promotion/relegation that is based on a program's aggregate results (not on a team-by-team basis).  Have an entire program promoted/relegated.  Eventually, you will see people move to where their children will receive better coaching/development over the longer-term.  I think you would also have a greater concentration of the top players (like the OYSL had, but with much less player movement).