April 29 The Final Impact vs Club America

[Fussball_eh]

Oduro has been great in this tournament. Even tonight he made a lot of great runs with Piatti consistently refusing to pass him the ball. 

 

I totally agree with this .There were many runs were Oduro went into open space and Piatti never passed it. You could see Oduro getting visibly frustrated about this.

[RJB]

The fact of the matter is that Montreal in no way deserved to win this.  They had six league wins last year and finished dead last in MLS.  In the Canadian Championship, they went 2-1-1, including a loss to Edmonton.  Granted, they won the tournament.  In the Champions League knockout phase, they managed one win in six.  I realise that they advanced within the tournament according to its rules - I'm not trying to discount that.  I just think it's important to put into perspective that they are a long way from deserving a championship like this.

 

We must look objectively at this and say that Montreal had a nice run, but in their last 46 MLS matches, they have 7 wins.  As a comparison, during their last 46 matches, Toronto has 15 wins, and Vancouver has 19.  This is hardly the mark of a continental champion. 

 

They just aren't that good right now, and managed to catch lightning in a bottle during their Champions League campaign.  But wouldn't it have been slightly embarrassing to send a last place team to the World Club Cup?  In the end, they achieved far beyond what they should have, and I think fans should be extremely happy.

 

Can we all admit that although we're happy for the Impact and their nice run, we're all a little bit relieved that they didn't win because at this point they are the wrong team to be the first Canadian/MLS CCL champion?

 

[Moldy9]

The fact of the matter is that Montreal in no way deserved to win this.  They had six league wins last year and finished dead last in MLS.  In the Canadian Championship, they went 2-1-1, including a loss to Edmonton.  Granted, they won the tournament.  In the Champions League knockout phase, they managed one win in six.  I realise that they advanced within the tournament according to its rules - I'm not trying to discount that.  I just think it's important to put into perspective that they are a long way from deserving a championship like this.

 

We must look objectively at this and say that Montreal had a nice run, but in their last 46 MLS matches, they have 7 wins.  As a comparison, during their last 46 matches, Toronto has 15 wins, and Vancouver has 19.  This is hardly the mark of a continental champion. 

 

They just aren't that good right now, and managed to catch lightning in a bottle during their Champions League campaign.  But wouldn't it have been slightly embarrassing to send a last place team to the World Club Cup?  In the end, they achieved far beyond what they should have, and I think fans should be extremely happy.

 

Can we all admit that although we're happy for the Impact and their nice run, we're all a little bit relieved that they didn't win because at this point they are the wrong team to be the first Canadian/MLS CCL champion?

I find your assesment to be unfair. You're talking about a record from last season with a almost an entirely different team and saying they didn't deserve to win based on previous results and that it would be an embarrassment is a discredit to what they accomplished. Last season they did have a bad season that's why they focussed entirely on the Canadian Championship. They made moves on the off season to improve the squad and just cause they got two draws and two losses you're quick to dismiss them. You think it's easy to focus on two campaigns? Sorry if they weren't the sexy club you'd like them to be but it's very hard to field an ultimate team to concentrate on MLS and CONCACAF especially when MLS can't compete with budget caps. Montreal did what they had to in order to make it that far in the tournament. Yes it was scrappy. And in the end injuries lack of depth and poor officiating did them in. I'm sure results won't happen in MLS for a few weeks because of the emotional drain they've invested in this run and they still didn't find a suitable replacement for DiVaio.

[Moldy9]

I'd also like to know who in your opinion would've been the "right" team to be the first Canadian team in the SCCL final??? THe only other Cdn team to make the CCL is TFC and they had 4 chances in a row to win it and the furthest they got was the semis. The Imapct were 40 minutes from the cup. . And if you want to talk about tournament runs by "not deserving" teams I'm sure you saw the 2000 Gold Cup and based on your assessment you would say the same about Canada winning on defense corner kicks and PKs were undeserving "embarrassing" representative to CONCACAF at the confederations cup? Seriously!? Prove me wrong. Why hasn't any of the superior MLS clubs with star talent and DPs have never won this tournament in its present form??? Maybe you should ask those questions.

[RJB]

I get it, there is a personal interest from Impact fans.  I get that they have won the right to compete.  And frankly, I was rooting for Montreal, because it would have been great for them to win.  But I don't think that is looking at it objectively. 

 

There is no other comparable example in the sport that I can think of, whereby someone can be last place in the league, and still qualify for the Champions League .  This is something that is unique to Canada/MLS.

 

If Vancouver makes the CCL final next year, I will be thrilled, but I expect the rest of MLS/North America to be soured by the fact that we qualified as a mid-table team.  Hardly Champions.

 

The rest of the world will look at it as a Champions League, and see that Montreal actually was last place in the league that they compete in.  People will be confused by the whole Canadian Champion thing, given they're in MLS, and it will add to the disrespect that MLS gets. 

 

Furthermore, how can the Impact's success be attributed to MLS, given that they weren't representing MLS in the tournament?

 

Regarding Canada in the Confederations Cup, I think that's a little different.  A better comparison might be if the host makes the finals of the World Club Cup.  People will be happy for them, and it will be a good story, but people will always look at it with a little but of "ya, but..."

 

And by right team, I just mean a team that is the best in the league already.  Emphasis on league. 

 

Take your emotions out of it, and you'll see what I mean.

[Kurt-MTL]

Quite the run; hats off to the Impact who had us all believing for awhile there.. let's hope this serves as a wake-up call to the rest of MLS to start taking this tournament seriously.

[tmcmurph]

 

They just aren't that good right now, and managed to catch lightning in a bottle during their Champions League campaign.  But wouldn't it have been slightly embarrassing to send a last place team to the World Club Cup?  In the end, they achieved far beyond what they should have, and I think fans should be extremely happy.

 

Can we all admit that although we're happy for the Impact and their nice run, we're all a little bit relieved that they didn't win because at this point they are the wrong team to be the first Canadian/MLS CCL champion?

 

Are you nuts? The last place MLS team beating a Mexican side to go to the CWC? That would be rubbing salt in a wound for our regional powerhouse rival that would make me happy as hell. Embarassed? Only if you were Club America. 

 

I really don't care about the niceties of how they would get there. Win good, bad & ugly makes no diff when you step on the field with Real Madrid or some other top team. You made it and you made history along the way. This run was as good as Havant & Waterlooville's run a few years back.

[tmcmurph]

And by right team, I just mean a team that is the best in the league already.  Emphasis on league. 

 

 

That is one way that the USA qualifies teams for the CCL. League results ( I forget if it's Supporters Shield or MLS Cup winners or both). Where were they last night? Watching from their couches. Didn't make it that far because they screwed up somewhere along the way with lineups or taking opponents lightly etc. Their problem, not Montreal's and not our V's Cup competition.

[shamrock]

I was surprised to see Klopas has more faith in young Crepeau than in Smits. Great of course for the completely inexperienced Crepeau, but it also says something about Smits of course.

[Keano]

Can we all admit that although we're happy for the Impact and their nice run, we're all a little bit relieved that they didn't win because at this point they are the wrong team to be the first Canadian/MLS CCL champion?

Um, no... They're my club. I'm a fan. Why would I be relieved they didn't win. In any case unlikely runs and underdog stories are the bread and butter of sport fandom. What are you smoking?

[RJB]

I suppose there really is no comparable.  And I also realise I'm seemingly in the minority on this one. 

 

Imagine Swansea, qualifying for the Champions League via a playoff with a few other Welsh clubs, after finishing 17th in the Premier League.  Then they're in, and cruise to the final.  Good story, happy for the fans, but there would be twelve teams above them in the league. 

 

And that's all I mean with Montreal (and Vancouver this year).  MLS is their primary league, and when a team finishes last place in their league, but still goes to the tournament, I think that it is a little bit unfair to the other clubs.  In Vancouver's case, they were mid table, and so also had a good number of teams above them.

 

Simple solution, Canadian clubs qualify via MLS.

[Blackdude]

Simple solution, Canadian clubs qualify via MLS.

 

Why do we play the Voyageurs' Cup then for? If it was like that, the Impact would probably never have been in MLS because of the V's Cup win in 2008, that showed that they were ready. For someone who calls himself a Voyageur who would be ready to kill our own trophy because the best team in MLS is a better representive than the winner of the Voyageurs' Cup is a bit sad. I didn't hear you cry wolf when DC United made the CCL quarterfinals the same season with an even worse team during the year that they qualified (sure they had a better year last year because they had money to spend for CCL qualification last year).

 

If you want to say that only MLS matters, fine. If we had 2 representatives, I would be all for one team through MLS and the second team through V's Cup, but right now, I would just take the V's Cup title, because it's a  true Canadian tournament with the best teams from our country. MLS is just an American league with 3 teams from outside this place.

[RJB]

The Voyageurs Cup can exist without the Champions League spot.  I'm not calling to kill the tournament. 

 

And you're right, you didn't hear me cry foul about DC, because I didn't.  It's ignorant to say that because I didn't say something in the past, I cannot say anything about a similar situation going forward. 

 

Montreal didn't make MLS because they won the Voyageurs Cup in 2008.  They made the league because they ticked all the boxes, mostly the financial ones. 

[Ivanovski94]

Compare our situation to another country without its own league.....Lichtenstein. What do they do.... oh they have a cup tourney featuring all the teams within the Swiss system.Just like us. Also Swansea, Cardiff City and the other 4 welsh teams in the English system don’t represent Wales nor can they enter any Welsh tournament.

[Blackdude]

The Voyageurs Cup can exist without the Champions League spot.  I'm not calling to kill the tournament. 

 

And you're right, you didn't hear me cry foul about DC, because I didn't.  It's ignorant to say that because I didn't say something in the past, I cannot say anything about a similar situation going forward. 

 

Montreal didn't make MLS because they won the Voyageurs Cup in 2008.  They made the league because they ticked all the boxes, mostly the financial ones. 

 

 

By the way how would it exist? Just a trophy that we handle for games that don't even matter? ? Seriously, I do care about it and not having the CCL spot would esentially kill it. In the pre CCL V'S cup era, each Canadian USL D1/A-League team played against each other at least once at home and away. It was a fair way to award it, the only problem was to choose which games would count towards the cup and which games are only league games. Still, it was a novelty trophy, but it was something to award to our Canadian champions. Why would MLS teams try to win the V's Cup if there's no CCL spot in it for them? I don't see how this can continue. I think that the V's Cup would become something worse than the Trillium Cup without CCL.

 

2008 helped a lot. It showed MLS that Montreal was ready. I do think that the V's Cup helped a lot in bringing up both clubs here and in Vancouver to MLS. Sure deep pockets owner helped, but the fact that those teams were competitive against TFC showed a lot.

[RJB]

By the way how would it exist? Just a trophy that we handle for games that don't even matter?

 

Then is this what you think of MLS?  Just a bunch of games for a trophy that doesn't matter?  Since after all, it doesn't get you into the Champions League.

 

This entire issue comes back to the fact that these Canadian teams play in an American league, and should qualify for the Champions League via that route.  The Voyageurs Cup is great - I love it - but to send a team to the Champions League after four matches is hardly a rigorous weeding out process.  Especially when these club play in a league already, which you seem to agree then has no greater value other than as an exhibition for the games that matter: The CCL qualifying Voyageurs Cup.

[tmcmurph]

I disagree about who "should" go. The team that win's the V's Cup is obviously the best team of the 5 in Canada and they should go. They earned it. It doesn't matter if they are first or last in the league. They won against the teams they faced and who may finish ahead of them in MLS standings. 

 

Besides if we qualify for CCL via MLS then what about the non-interlocking schedule? That is hardly a fair way to do it. 

 

The US teams qualify via several methods including MLS and US Open Cup. We qualify our way. Having the prospect of CCL games is a very real incentive for our teams to take the V's Cup competition seriously. We need that. 

 

Yes it would be better with more teams and in time maybe we will get more D1/2 teams. 

[Blackdude]

Then is this what you think of MLS?  Just a bunch of games for a trophy that doesn't matter?  Since after all, it doesn't get you into the Champions League.

 

No, but MLS is your league, but teams want to win those trophies for the money that it will bring. If you win the Supporters' Shield, you will get great attendance throughout the year, because you will have a strong team all year and at least one playoff home game. If you win the MLS Cup, you'll get more money because you'll get at least two home playoff games. It still says that you've won something. Players and coaches will always want to win the league, CCL or not, because the league would remain the #1 goal.

 

I just think that the V's Cup without a participation in the CCL would be the end of it. Anyways, the Impact got the #1 seed in the V's Cup how? By having the most points by a Canadian team in the league. So, they've got the advantages of playing the second leg at home by winning in MLS the previous year.  You haven't answered my question? Why would you try to win the V's Cup if there wasn't a CCL spot? I'm talking not as a Voyageur, but as a MLS coach here. I would put my bottom 15-16 players to be available and rest my starters and it would be a big joke

 

. Also, if you went towards the league route, the Impact would have qualified anyways. So, that point is even more ridiculous. Fact the Impact were the "best MLS team in 2013". By that same token, the Impact would have qualfied for the 2014-15 CCL. So, why are we having this discussion because they would have qualified one way or another anyways?

 

Oh if you're telling me that you love the V's Cup and would be willing to sabotage it, you don't love it. I don't hear FC Vaduz crying that they didn't qualify through Europa League because they were the best Liechtenstein team in the Swiss league when they fail to win their domestic cup. If we had a Canadian pro league, I would be all ears on sending the best league team in, but we don't. I think that it's the best way right now to send our representative.  Bu

[Sport Shaman]

@RJB "Canadian teams qualify via MLS"

 

What purpose would that serve? Apparently you entirely miss the point of giving teams from other divisions the opportunity to knock off a favoured opponent from the first division. After all the Eddies were one bogus bullshit call way, way, way, into  a dubious amount of stoppage time from claiming an MLS scalp last year. Are you afraid that your MLS team will be the first to be eliminated by an NASL team?     

[RJB]

I'm not afraid of anything.  My idea is simple:  Much like in England and France, clubs qualify for continental competitions based on the league that they play.  Therefore, since Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto play in an American league, they should take up one of the American spots - if they earn it. 

 

As I suggested earlier, if Swansea with the Premier League, they don't slide the qualification spots down to teams 2-5.  Imagine Swansea winning the Premier League, but losing to Aberystwyth Town in the Welsh Cup, and so not going to Champions League.  Instead, in Europe as is rightly the case, clubs qualify via the league they participate in.  I've suggested this from day one, and stand by it. 

 

The Voyageurs Cup doesn't exist so that Edmonton can take an MLS club out.  It exists as a Canadian Cup.  Blackdude, taking away the CCL spot wouldn't kill it.  To say I don't support because I want to remove the carrot is asinine.  All the reasons that you support it are just for that very carrot, and not for the beauty of the competition.  That's why I support it, because I appreciate the competition.

 

As for the league route, no, the Impact would not have qualified via the league.  The top four qualify via the league, and the Impact were not top 4.

 

We're going in circles here.  We disagree, and so it goes.  I think Canadian clubs in MLS should take up one of the four US spots if they earn them via MLS.  I think the Voyageurs Cup will be just fine.  It's a trophy after all, and that's what teams want.  The Voyageurs Cup survived last year, didn't it?

 

But as it stands, I will cheer for the Whitecaps this year, just like I cheered for the Impact in the Champions League the just ended.  But if you ask me - I know, you didn't - the only way a Canadian team can with the CCL without an asterisk, is by qualifying for the CCL by winning the Voyageurs Cup, AND finishing in what would have otherwise been a US spot that same cycle. 

 

Anyways, I was just trying to look at things objectively, and without nationalistic/personal bias.

[Sport Shaman]

No Voyageur has ever been known to have a nationalistic bias

 

Until Canada gets their own national league that is considered Div 1 or Div 1A, I like the current tournament system of deciding our CCL qualifier. Once we get our own top flight domestic league I will be willing to switch to the approach you advocate.

[Blackdude]

The Voyageurs Cup doesn't exist so that Edmonton can take an MLS club out.  It exists as a Canadian Cup.  Blackdude, taking away the CCL spot wouldn't kill it.  To say I don't support because I want to remove the carrot is asinine.  All the reasons that you support it are just for that very carrot, and not for the beauty of the competition.  That's why I support it, because I appreciate the competition.

 

Every domestic cup in the world gives something to the winner whether it's a Europa League or a Copa Sudamericana even CONCACAF Champions League, there is something to it. Taking away the CCL spot would make the competition pointless.  If the CSA ever pulls the CCL spot from the V's Cup, explain to me why clubs would even try to win it? You haven't answered the question. For sporting reasons? If I'm any MLS club, I would try to send my USL team instead of my MLS team because they need it more than my MLS club.  The V's Cup would make no sense for any MLS club to try to win it.  I just think that pulling the carrot would essentially kill it. Also, I do think that you're comparing yourself to England and France who have domestic leagues. We are unique and the only country that can really compare itself to us is Liechtenstein.

 

As for the league route, no, the Impact would not have qualified via the league.  The top four qualify via the league, and the Impact were not top 4.

 

Most teams don't qualfy via top X in CONCACAF. It's up to every FA to decide how clubs participate in the  CCL. I find it ridiculous that you're always comparing European countries who have their own way of choosing their representatives. You sound more Eurosnob in a comment like this. Why do all the FA's in Central America give their spots to the teams winning their tournament final? You could put asterisk on at least a third of the clubs participating in the CCL anyways.

 

We're going in circles here.  We disagree, and so it goes.  I think Canadian clubs in MLS should take up one of the four US spots if they earn them via MLS.  I think the Voyageurs Cup will be just fine.  It's a trophy after all, and that's what teams want.  The Voyageurs Cup survived last year, didn't it?

 

 

It survives because of the carrot. Then again,  US clubs can qualify via winning US Open Cup. I don't see how it is worse than it is now. And we'll go in circles on it. If you're telling me that people are going to play for a shining trophy, you're right, but that is it. I just do think that if you pull the CCL, that interest will fade even more and it will disappear. MLS Cup success won't kill any Canadian MLS team, because they would have had success that would be acknowledged by the league.

 

Anyways, I was just trying to look at things objectively, and without nationalistic/personal bias.

 

I try to look at things objectively also. I don't think it has personal bias to the Impact, even if I'm an Impact fan. I'd say the same thing if the Impact won the MLS Cup, the Supporters' Shield and TFC won the Voyageurs' Cup. The day that we have a Canadian top division and not ride the coattails of the US, I'll be all for something like that, but that day hasn't come. The problem is that Canada is a unique country and soccer in the Americas is different than in Europe. I don't think that we can compare ourselves to England, France, etc. We have our unique situation and the CSA chose to award its CCL spot in their own unique way. I don't think that it is fair to compare ourselves to other countries in how we decide who gets to represent us. If I'm the CSA, I do think that right now, it's the best way to determine our representative.

[RJB]

If the CSA ever pulls the CCL spot from the V's Cup, explain to me why clubs would even try to win it? You haven't answered the question. For sporting reasons?

 

Yes, for sporting reasons.

 

 

We are unique and the only country that can really compare itself to us is Liechtenstein.

 

Liechtenstein does not get a Champions League spot.

 

Most teams don't qualfy via top X in CONCACAF. It's up to every FA to decide how clubs participate in the  CCL. I find it ridiculous that you're always comparing European countries who have their own way of choosing their representatives. You sound more Eurosnob in a comment like this. Why do all the FA's in Central America give their spots to the teams winning their tournament final? You could put asterisk on at least a third of the clubs participating in the CCL anyways.

 

This is very much the case.  I guess when it comes down to it, I feel like this is ok because they all are competing in the same competitions, whereas the Canadian MLS sides are competing in the MLS, and then a completely separate domestic cup.  I think really, this is a good move for MLS because it really gets them a fifth CCL club.  It's quite a nice move on their part, when you think about it.

 

I've enjoyed our banter, but I think that we are just taking opposing positions.  Mine being that any Canadian Champions League winner/participant will need to 'ghost qualify' through the league to have credibility, and that they should have to qualify via MLS.  Yours being that it doesn't matter frankly, that the Voyageurs Cup winner is a deserving representative (and to this I agree that they are, I just don't think it should be the case), and thay my comparisons to Europe are unreasonable.

[Blackdude]

 

Liechtenstein does not get a Champions League spot.

 

Ok, but the US gets a spot through the US Open Cup.I don't think that it's bad to send our representative through the V's Cup. And remember, we don't have the Europa League in here. Also, UEFA has rules that CONCACAF doesn't for the Champions' League. Because every country is different in CONCACAF. Countries give spots via playoffs, cups, regular season or a Caribbean championship. Should countries change what they're doing to comply because they do that in Europe? I don't think so. The main problem of your argument is talking about Europe as a comparaison. Blame CONCACAF for how they're organizing their Champions' League, but please don't say that it's an asterisk because club X didn't finish top Y in the league, because every club in every country knows how they can qualify to the Champiions' League. Rules are clear to every club in every country. I don't think that clubs will whine because of that.

I don't think that it's fair to compare ourselves to other European Leagues because there it works that way. Here it works another way. It's simple as that..

 

I do fully disagree with you about the V's Cup still being competed.  The V'S Cup would die within 2 years if it wasn't for the CCL spot. I don't see why clubs would want to play in it. The "Canadian Championship" was created for that same reason, to send a Canadian team to the Champions League. If there wasn't a CCL spot up for grabs, I don't think that this competition would have been created and I don't think that the CSA wants to have something like that. Name me one domestic cup where the teams from the top league participate in and there isn't an international competition on the line? I can't name you one. If you can, please tell me which one.

 

You're advocating to give up our spot to another Mexican club. If someone has to make the call, it's CONCACAF/FIFA. I don't think that anybody else would make a call like that because it's in the best interest of the CSA, MLS and NASL to send a Canadian team to the CCL.

[Moldy9]

Yeah it's late but here's a recap montage I made for anyone wanting some nostalgia and a trip down memory lane of the Impact miraculous run. Hope you enjoy.