Alan Gordon = Ahole

[tmcmurph]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2013/04/15/sp-mls-alan-gordon-will-johnson-gay-slur.html

Hope he gets suspended on top of the red card he got for elbowing and drawing blood while on a yellow. I watched the game and San Jose are a dirty bunch of scum. Glad Will made them pay with a truly great goal.

[Blackdude]

Clark and Burch got 3 games for their slur. He should get at the very minimum 4 games. Gay slurs got Colin Clark and Chris Burch 3 games.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Wait, Alan Gordon is not gay?

[Keegan]

Yawn. My question is, do you get 3 games for calling someone a cock sucker? Because if not then players just need to selectively choose words and this is a non story

[Cheeta]

If you're feeling generous and want to give Gordon the benefit of the doubt, that is to say he spat some verbal venom @ Johnson and just went with the cheap and easy without any deeper intent, than it is what it is. The sort of vigerous on-field banter that happens all over the field 1,000 times a match.

Doesn't let Gordon escape punishment, whatever that may be established at, its just I wouldn't read too much into it. As Keegan wrote, he'll just have to be more selective with what he spews in the future and how he goes about spewing it.

[Keegan]

If you're feeling generous and want to give Gordon the benefit of the doubt, that is to say he spat some verbal venom @ Johnson and just went with the cheap and easy without any deeper intent, than it is what it is. The sort of vigerous on-field banter that happens all over the field 1,000 times a match.

Doesn't let Gordon escape punishment, whatever that may be established at, its just I wouldn't read too much into it. As Keegan wrote, he'll just have to be more selective with what he spews in the future and how he goes about spewing it.

Gordon obviously isn't anti-gay and Johnson obviously isn't gay, it is what it is just on field instinctive banter trying to get under your opponents skin. Growing up that is pretty much the go to insult in any sport.

[tmcmurph]

Still sweet that Will buried the FK and Gordon will miss probably 4 games. The cheap tackles and flailing arms he and his "bruise brother" were doing was typical of their style of play. The longer the better, the game will only improve without him in it

[RS]

http://deadspin.com/will-johnson-responds-to-alleged-gay-slur-with-gorgeous-472926863

[Gordon]

Gordon obviously isn't anti-gay and Johnson obviously isn't gay, it is what it is just on field instinctive banter trying to get under your opponents skin. Growing up that is pretty much the go to insult in any sport.

I first saw this argument in 1977-78 when, during an FA Cup game, a black player - Cyril Regis I believe, reacted to an Arsenal Players - I believe (memory does only partially serve me here) Malcolm MacDonald - calling him "Nigger" and got himself sent off. MacDonald went unpunished, and indeed was praised for getting under the skin of his opponent. After all, black players grew up getting called "Nigger". It was pretty much the go to insult they expereinced in any sport. I thought at the time it was a douchebag defence, and it hasn't gotten any prettier in the intervening years.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Before specific names start being mentioned like that, shouldn't you be 100% sure you have got it right? Your anecdote would convey your point just as effectively in their absence.

[madmonte]

Wow, what a strike! Careful WJ, or even the coaches will try to rile you up

[Keegan]

I first saw this argument in 1977-78 when, during an FA Cup game, a black player - Cyril Regis I believe, reacted to an Arsenal Players - I believe (memory does only partially serve me here) Malcolm MacDonald - calling him "Nigger" and got himself sent off. MacDonald went unpunished, and indeed was praised for getting under the skin of his opponent. After all, black players grew up getting called "Nigger". It was pretty much the go to insult they expereinced in any sport. I thought at the time it was a douchebag defence, and it hasn't gotten any prettier in the intervening years.

That is slightly similar but not the same...

The player you're talking about was black.. Johnson isn't gay. That was an actual racial attack. This was a comment from one straight player to another. The comment was supposed to rile Johnson up by attacking his man hood. If it was from a straight player to an openly gay player it would be horrible, yes. But in my mind this is just banter with a poor choice of words, nothing more and people need to get off their high horses.

[Grizzly]

That is slightly similar but not the same...

The player you're talking about was black.. Johnson isn't gay. That was an actual racial attack. This was a comment from one straight player to another. The comment was supposed to rile Johnson up by attacking his man hood. If it was from a straight player to an openly gay player it would be horrible, yes. But in my mind this is just banter with a poor choice of words, nothing more and people need to get off their high horses.

So by your argument a white guy who insults other white guys by calling them niggers is not racist.

[Keegan]

So by your argument a white guy who insults other white guys by calling them niggers is not racist.

I don't know many white guys who would instinctively call another white guy a nigger on the soccer pitch but we're from different generations. If the white guys call each other nigger in a social setting I'd call them wiggers.

[tmcmurph]

So by your argument a white guy who insults other white guys by calling them niggers is not racist.

Or a black calling another black nigger? Same word, same racial target. I say it is still racist. Either nobody can use it or everyone can. I always loved Richard Pryor's explanation of why he stopped using the word. A true epiphany moment for the guy.

I just can't help but laugh at that clown Gordon. Just back and bye bye for 4 more games and Will scores the winner with a cracking shot. I'm sure that San Jose's next 4 opponents will love it as well. I love the 3 digit salute that Will gave him "that's 3 games".

[RS]

I'm not getting involved in this discussion, but I just wanted to point out how odd it is that the 'N' word isn't filtered out on this board, yet it's impossible to spell out the legitimate name of a place in England (S****horpe).

[Cheeta]

^^

Have to admit it is pretty funny. Karma is one of life's wonders sometimes. A slice o' justice in an all too often unjust world.

Not going to get me to agree about the seriousness of racist/discriminatory terms thrown around the pitch in the heat of battle. But I won't argue the punishment either if you're caught. It is what it is and everybody knows it so watch your mouth or suffer the consequences.

I'll admit I'm a bit confused though. We're getting on a decade into FIFA's "Say no to racism" campaign and I'd always though that while racism is pooh-poohed upon we we're still allowed to discriminate along the lines of religion, sex, or sexual orientation. (I mean, why take all the fun out of footie, eh?)

Otherwise why else would FIFA award the World Cup Finals to Qatar except to expose dozens of gay players from around the globe to possible imprisonment? Teach the dirty buggers a proper lesson that would!

Just saying.

[Grizzly]

I don't know many white guys who would instinctively call another white guy a nigger on the soccer pitch but we're from different generations. If the white guys call each other nigger in a social setting I'd call them wiggers.

The point is not whether white people actually insult each other like this. The point is that the example shows that your explanation/justification is not logical. If you are going to use a term that identifies a group of people as an insult than that obviously insinuates that there is something wrong or inferior with that group of people whether or not the person insulted is a member of that group. Now I am not going to claim that Gordon (the player not the forum member ) is definitely homophobic because of this. He may or may not be though your claim that he is not is pure conjecture. This insult like many other insults is often used in the heat of the moment without someone thinking about the meaning of it. I have done it myself and I am sure most others here have done it. However, that does not mean its use should be minimized and justified as you are doing. The MLS has both gay players and fans so any player openly insulting them or any other group should be and is deserving of being punished whether or not the player actually holds prejudicial opinions of the group he insulted. Anything less would show a lack of respect towards those groups of fans. And even if there were no gay players or fans such slurs should be prohibited out of principle.

And regardless of whether Gordon is truly homophobic or not, he and his Bash Brothers teammate Lenhart are two of the poorest characters in MLS and players I have absolutely no respect for. These are the type of player one wishes there could be a special rule to suspend them before they seriously hurt someone not after they hurt someone. I hope the MLS will keep an eye on these two and punish their dirty and illegal style of play so that they do not endanger the other players they are playing against. If the MLS wants to become a respectable league it really needs to let the skilled players perform and find a way to ensure that this brutal style of playing is not rewarded.

[BuzzAndSting]

The point is not whether white people actually insult each other like this. The point is that the example shows that your explanation/justification is not logical.

Keegan's argument is only illogical if you assume the scenario you proposed is similar, which it is not. Homophobic slurs are accepted in society far more than racial ones, especially coming from white people. The two terms carry very different weights, come from different histories and hold different places in our lexicon.

[Grizzly]

Keegan's argument is only illogical if you assume the scenario you proposed is similar, which it is not. Homophobic slurs are accepted in society far more than racial ones, especially coming from white people. The two terms carry very different weights, come from different histories and hold different places in our lexicon.

No this is simply wrong. Keegan made the argument that this was not a homophobic comment because neither person involved was homosexual (as far as we know). His argument is illogical and the scenario I presented is absolutely similar regardless of whether it is common practice or not or how socially acceptable each insult is. If you are using a group reference to insult someone you are explicitly implying that this group is inferior or undesirable.

You are making another argument which Keegan has also made and while also fallacious it was not the argument I was debunking in my response to Keegan. This argument is that it is no big deal to use a homosexual insult since it is a common practice and socially acceptable. Even were that true it is not a reason to minimize the offence. Just because it is socially acceptable to insult a group does not mean one should do it nor that professional leagues should tolerate athletes who do it. Social acceptance of such a slur might provide some insight into motive, (ie. using a slur that is socially accepted might make it more possible that the person using it is just using it to insult and does not really hate the group) but it in no way justifies or minimizes its use.

While I would agree that racial slurs are at the top of the forbidden insults ladder, I think you are exaggerating the difference in weight. Homophobic slurs have been pretty unacceptable for over a decade now. We have had scores of athletes punished for this, constant stories of homophobic bullying/suicides and years of protests by gay and lesbian groups. In addition leagues such as MLS specifically inform their athletes that such language will not be tolerated. Why do you think Will Johnson knew immediately it was a 3 game suspension for calling him that? Because the league had drilled it into him not to use that type of language.

Old habits die hard and if someone wanted to argue that Gordon isn't really homophobic and just used an insult he has heard a lot I can accept that argumentation. However, what I will not accept is an argument such as that Keegan is making that the offence is not as serious as the league and many fans are making it out to be and not deserving of the punishment he is being given.

[Blackdude]

It's wrong to use an homphobic slur. Period. Even if he didn't mean to say it. When you see a player like Robbie Rogers retire because of his sexual orientation, it tells you that the game is still far away to accept an out football player.

[Keegan]

No this is simply wrong. Keegan made the argument that this was not a homophobic comment because neither person involved was homosexual (as far as we know). His argument is illogical and the scenario I presented is absolutely similar regardless of whether it is common practice or not or how socially acceptable each insult is. If you are using a group reference to insult someone you are explicitly implying that this group is inferior or undesirable.

You are making another argument which Keegan has also made and while also fallacious it was not the argument I was debunking in my response to Keegan. This argument is that it is no big deal to use a homosexual insult since it is a common practice and socially acceptable. Even were that true it is not a reason to minimize the offence. Just because it is socially acceptable to insult a group does not mean one should do it nor that professional leagues should tolerate athletes who do it. Social acceptance of such a slur might provide some insight into motive, (ie. using a slur that is socially accepted might make it more possible that the person using it is just using it to insult and does not really hate the group) but it in no way justifies or minimizes its use.

While I would agree that racial slurs are at the top of the forbidden insults ladder, I think you are exaggerating the difference in weight. Homophobic slurs have been pretty unacceptable for over a decade now. We have had scores of athletes punished for this, constant stories of homophobic bullying/suicides and years of protests by gay and lesbian groups. In addition leagues such as MLS specifically inform their athletes that such language will not be tolerated. Why do you think Will Johnson knew immediately it was a 3 game suspension for calling him that? Because the league had drilled it into him not to use that type of language.

Old habits die hard and if someone wanted to argue that Gordon isn't really homophobic and just used an insult he has heard a lot I can accept that argumentation. However, what I will not accept is an argument such as that Keegan is making that the offence is not as serious as the league and many fans are making it out to be and not deserving of the punishment he is being given.

I never said it wasn't a homophobic comment. Of course it's a homophobic slur. Gordon's (poster) example while similar isn't the same though. I don't think its acceptable but I'm also not for people going along with the league in vilifying Gordon for cheap PR for the league... because let's be honest that's what this is all about and everyone is going right along with it. One comment is overshadowing a whole match that was pretty hotly contested and ended with a great free kick.

I can't speak for the homosexual community but I'd be pretty shocked if they were really up in arms against two straight players name calling during a footy match. I think MLS is spinning this for their own good a lot more than the offended even care. FWIW I watched the match and didn't even notice until I read on twitter.

[Grizzly]

I never said it wasn't a homophobic comment. Of course it's a homophobic slur. Gordon's (poster) example while similar isn't the same though. I don't think its acceptable but I'm also not for people going along with the league in vilifying Gordon for cheap PR for the league... because let's be honest that's what this is all about and everyone is going right along with it. One comment is overshadowing a whole match that was pretty hotly contested and ended with a great free kick.

I can't speak for the homosexual community but I'd be pretty shocked if they were really up in arms against two straight players name calling during a footy match. I think MLS is spinning this for their own good a lot more than the offended even care. FWIW I watched the match and didn't even notice until I read on twitter.

You have continued throughout the thread to minimize the offence and present Gordon as being persecuted and are using a lot of faulty arguments in doing so. And when your flaws in logic are exposed you then come up with some other equally flawed argument or justification of your opinion like above.

How is the league using this for PR? They suspended him for the league mandated penalty for such an offence that was in effect before Gordon did this. He like every other player has been repeatedly told that he should not use such language and what the penalty for doing so is. The league made a short statement about the suspension which also outlined their policy and released a short apology from Gordon. How is the league vilifying Gordon or using this for PR? That is an absolutely ridiculous claim. Yes a league looks better when they deal properly with offences than when they deal with them improperly but for the most part leagues don't want these type of things to happen in the first place and are happy when they die out quickly. Gordon is the sole author of his misfortune and the punishment he is receiving is not out of line with the offence especially since he was absolutely aware of what the penalty was beforehand.

Gordon is receiving a lot of heat on various forums but that is also his own doing. He is a dirty player who is hated throughout the league so yes when he does a transgression he get more venom from fans. It is part of being a player and he has brought it upon himself because of how he plays.

Gordon made a homophobic slur which by his own admission (sincere or not) was improper behaviour, received the league mandated penalty for it which is not excessive and received a lot of criticism on fan forums which he brought upon himself. If Gordon himself accepts that why do you have a problem with it?

[Gordon]

I never said it wasn't a homophobic comment. Of course it's a homophobic slur. Gordon's (poster) example while similar isn't the same though. I don't think its acceptable but I'm also not for people going along with the league in vilifying Gordon for cheap PR for the league... because let's be honest that's what this is all about and everyone is going right along with it. One comment is overshadowing a whole match that was pretty hotly contested and ended with a great free kick.

I can't speak for the homosexual community but I'd be pretty shocked if they were really up in arms against two straight players name calling during a footy match. I think MLS is spinning this for their own good a lot more than the offended even care. FWIW I watched the match and didn't even notice until I read on twitter.

You missed Gordon's (the poster lol) primary point. The point is that 30 years ago, directing a racial slur at a black player was defended "acceptable behaviour" under the circumstances. That has now changed, at least in decent society. Hopefully it won't take as long for homphobic slurs to achieve the same status. It should not be acceptable under any circumstances. Period. There are no nuances, exceptions or subtleties about it. I am sure you are not homophobic Keenan, but you sure don't seem to get it. It doesn't matter if any of the parties involved are gay, homophobic, or even male. In another post you equate the remark to challenging someone's manhood. Really, you define 'manhood' but sexual preference? Think about that, under that way of thinking Keenan, Mark Bingham had questionable manhood. Try "chicken ****" or "yellow belly" if you're against cussing. I would, however, recomend against "fraidy cat" unless it is an under 9 league.

[Marc]

You missed Gordon's (the poster lol) primary point. The point is that 30 years ago, directing a racial slur at a black player was defended "acceptable behaviour" under the circumstances. That has now changed, at least in decent society. Hopefully it won't take as long for homphobic slurs to achieve the same status. It should not be acceptable under any circumstances. Period. There are no nuances, exceptions or subtleties about it. I am sure you are not homophobic Keenan, but you sure don't seem to get it. It doesn't matter if any of the parties involved are gay, homophobic, or even male. In another post you equate the remark to challenging someone's manhood. Really, you define 'manhood' but sexual preference? Think about that, under that way of thinking Keenan, Mark Bingham had questionable manhood. Try "chicken ****" or "yellow belly" if you're against cussing. I would, however, recomend against "fraidy cat" unless it is an under 9 league.

Well put.

I do think the use of fraidy cat, thrown in at the right time, when it it least expected, in a very heated exchange could have a very funny and distracting effect.