Bryce Alderson

[jpg75]

You think coaches can't get an idea whether players are capable of playing by training sessions and reserve matches? What benefit is there to playing players that are either not ready, or deemed not good enough?

Oscar Cordon

Gabe Gala

Derek Gaudet

Tyler Hemming

Andrea Lombardo

Keith Makubuya

Joey Melo

David Monsalve

Tyler Rosenlund

Matt Stinson

Emery Welshman

Gianluca Zavarise

A list of young Canadians that have played a league match for TFC...then later released. In terms of their pro careers, what long term benefit did it provide them? How many of them are even still in the game?

You gotta go through a lot of dough when you're learning to make a pizza. 

 

Nana Attakora

Ashton Morgan

Doneil Henry

Jonathan Osorio

Kyle Bekker

[El Hombre]

So the question was posted above that nobody has answered. How many MLS minutes for Canadians before you STFU?

 

This is a pretty easy question to answer: they just have to be not the worst of all the Canadian teams.

[El Hombre]

You think coaches can't get an idea whether players are capable of playing by training sessions and reserve matches? What benefit is there to playing players that are either not ready, or deemed not good enough?

Oscar Cordon

Gabe Gala

Derek Gaudet

Tyler Hemming

Andrea Lombardo

Keith Makubuya

Joey Melo

David Monsalve

Tyler Rosenlund

Matt Stinson

Emery Welshman

Gianluca Zavarise

A list of young Canadians that have played a league match for TFC...then later released. In terms of their pro careers, what long term benefit did it provide them? How many of them are even still in the game?

 

It's always interesting when this list gets brought up because an even longer list of young non-Canadians can be compiled which goes to show something systemically wrong at TFC (both in terms of talent identification and player retention) rather than this being an example of Canadian kids not being ready for primetime.

[VWFC]

You gotta go through a lot of dough when you're learning to make a pizza. 

 

Nana Attakora

Ashton Morgan

Doneil Henry

Jonathan Osorio

Kyle Bekker

 

TFC didnt develop Osorio or Bekker.

[VWFC]

I'm really curious why no one will answer my question?

[tmcmurph]

Well, you guys keep bragging how Vancouver Whitecaps is a CLUB, so guess what clubs do? They develop their own players and that includes bringing players into the first team and giving them minutes to see what they can do. We're not talking about giving them a 1000 minutes, we're talking about a handful of appearances of 15-20 minutes to see if they look out of place. If the 'Caps had done that with Alderson he probably wouldn't have left. And if you did that with other young players you might be surprised at how they do and end up with more Canadians in the line-up. That's what a club does, anything other than that and you're not cheering on a club, you're cheering on a business. A business who is not willing to give every chance to it's Canadian players (and remember. GIVE was your Mr. word thick-in-the-head) by making short-term sacrifice (or investment since you seem to be such a business man) to build their own products, but would rather outsource to foreigners to purchase ready-made players so that they can compete NOW. You are cheering on the soccer equivalent of Wal-mart.

 

And the Caps do develop a lot of players. But there you go again with that "bring them into the first team and GIVING them minutes to see what they can do". Every time you hear yourself saying "GIVE" for playing time at the first team level just remind yourself that this is professional soccer team. Playing time on the first team are not given. They are taken. They get minutes on the first team when the coaching staff feel they are ready and can improve the team. 

 

"A handful of appearances of 15 to 20 minutes to see if they look out of place". Your fantasy world sounds fun but I'll stick with reality. Here is how it works in reality (a place you might want to visit sometime). Once you get a contract and are on the 30 man roster you prove yourself in practice and reserve games to the point where you are on the game day 18. If a need arises (injury, exhaustion, etc) to a player who starts at your position you get to come in. If way ahead or behind a coach may put a young player on the field but those situations are very rare especially in a low scoring game like soccer. 

 

"Not willing to give every chance to its Canadian players"? Right because

1) Running an academy before it was even in MLS.

2) Providing first rate training for kids 12-18

3) Providing well paying jobs to 18 year old players from their academy 

4) Being beyond the minimum players required by the CSA

5) Using up roster spots on the 30 man roster

6) Training them with the first team daily

 

is just not enough for you. First team minutes obsessive compulsive disorder. This is pro soccer. Get over it.

 

No I'm not cheering for the soccer equivalent of Walmart. I'm cheering for a team that has done more for Canadian soccer and Canadian soccer players than any other organization in Canada. I'm cheering for a team that does all the items above and more. Go ask the Canadian women's team. They did all that and more before it was required. I'm cheering for a team that provides tons of opportunities for players knowing full well that a lot will choose university, Europe and other options. I'm cheering for a team that has more players on our current U20 team than any other. 

 

And yes I will continue to defend them on this issue. This obsession with first team minutes is ignorant beyond belief. I truly feel it is latched onto with such repetition because it is the only thing you have to hang your hat on. Everything else you have been repeatedly shown to be wrong about. So back to the "first team minutes" line. Nice mantra hopefully it helps your mental condition improve.

[VWFC]

This is a pretty easy question to answer: they just have to be not the worst of all the Canadian teams.

 

Can you be specific.  That is a link to a lot of things.

[jpg75]

TFC didnt develop Osorio or Bekker.

No they are an example of Canadian players given a chance with first team that did work out.

[El Hombre]

Can you be specific.  That is a link to a lot of things.

 

Now you're being silly.  But that's okay, I'll walk you through it.  Top right of the page, there are percentages which represent the amount of playing time given to Canadians by the five professional teams in this country (Canada).  Vancouver's number is the lowest.  That means that they gave the lowest amount of playing time to Canadians out of all five professional teams in this country (Canada).  If you want an objective/goal so that these threads stop: just don't be the worst.

[tmcmurph]

 

Now you're being silly.  But that's okay, I'll walk you through it.  Top right of the page, there are percentages which represent the amount of playing time given to Canadians by the five professional teams in this country (Canada).  Vancouver's number is the lowest.  That means that they gave the lowest amount of playing time to Canadians out of all five professional teams in this country (Canada).  If you want an objective/goal so that these threads stop: just don't be the worst.

 

So then you will rag on TFC or the Impact? Spare them the nonsense. This is supposed to be professional soccer. 

[El Hombre]

So then you will rag on TFC or the Impact? Spare them the nonsense. This is supposed to be professional soccer. 

Yes, that will happen, because the people here (for the most part) are the type of confused soccer fans that are mostly interested in country over club.

 

You asked a question, I answered it.  Pretty simple.

[VWFC]

No they are an example of Canadian players given a chance with first team that did work out.

 

The discussion was very specific and to include guys in there early 20's who weren't developed at the club isn't being honest.

[BradMack]

I don't think this is as simple as both sides of the argument are trying to make it seem. I definitely feel like all of our MLS teams should try to have a more Canadian feel, and the Caps are definitely the least Canadian. But I also understand that players have to be good enough to earn their place as ultimately it comes down to the coach trying to keep his job.

A good example of a team that wins with youth is Lyon. Of course their academy is legendary, but I feel like if the Caps hired a coach with enough balls to play the Academy kids more they have the best chance of our 3 teams of being Lyon-like.

[jpg75]

And the Caps do develop a lot of players. But there you go again with that "bring them into the first team and GIVING them minutes to see what they can do". Every time you hear yourself saying "GIVE" for playing time at the first team level just remind yourself that this is professional soccer team. Playing time on the first team are not given. They are taken. They get minutes on the first team when the coaching staff feel they are ready and can improve the team. 

 

"A handful of appearances of 15 to 20 minutes to see if they look out of place". Your fantasy world sounds fun but I'll stick with reality. Here is how it works in reality (a place you might want to visit sometime). Once you get a contract and are on the 30 man roster you prove yourself in practice and reserve games to the point where you are on the game day 18. If a need arises (injury, exhaustion, etc) to a player who starts at your position you get to come in. If way ahead or behind a coach may put a young player on the field but those situations are very rare especially in a low scoring game like soccer. 

 

"Not willing to give every chance to its Canadian players"? Right because

1) Running an academy before it was even in MLS.

2) Providing first rate training for kids 12-18

3) Providing well paying jobs to 18 year old players from their academy 

4) Being beyond the minimum players required by the CSA

5) Using up roster spots on the 30 man roster

6) Training them with the first team daily

 

is just not enough for you. First team minutes obsessive compulsive disorder. This is pro soccer. Get over it.

 

No I'm not cheering for the soccer equivalent of Walmart. I'm cheering for a team that has done more for Canadian soccer and Canadian soccer players than any other organization in Canada. I'm cheering for a team that does all the items above and more. Go ask the Canadian women's team. They did all that and more before it was required. I'm cheering for a team that provides tons of opportunities for players knowing full well that a lot will choose university, Europe and other options. I'm cheering for a team that has more players on our current U20 team than any other. 

 

And yes I will continue to defend them on this issue. This obsession with first team minutes is ignorant beyond belief. I truly feel it is latched onto with such repetition because it is the only thing you have to hang your hat on. Everything else you have been repeatedly shown to be wrong about. So back to the "first team minutes" line. Nice mantra hopefully it helps your mental condition improve.

You are so blinded by dogma you just can't see that your VWFB is dropping the ball. All of those things they do are for naught if they can't help those kids fulfill themselves.

Anyways, I tire of your insults so you can go fuck yourself.

[jpg75]

The discussion was very specific and to include guys in there early 20's who weren't developed at the club isn't being honest.

What? Masster posted a list of Cdn players that were given first team PT that didn't work out so i answered with players who did work out.

[tmcmurph]

Yes, that will happen, because the people here (for the most part) are the type of confused soccer fans that are mostly interested in country over club.

 

You asked a question, I answered it.  Pretty simple.

 

So you will rag on TFC or the Impact. At least you're consistent. Silly and myopic but consistent.

 

As long as they are running academies and giving contracts to players so they can continue to develop I'm happy. As much as I'd love to see them all on the team that developed them it doesn't matter if they end up in MLS or B2 in Germany or Championship as long as they get to the next level. 

 

I go back to the 1970s with both the Caps and Canada's MNT. Caring more about one than the other is like trying to choose between which of your children you love the most.

[tmcmurph]

You are so blinded by dogma you just can't see that your VWFB is dropping the ball. All of those things they do are for naught if they can't help those kids fulfill themselves.

Anyways, I tire of your insults so you can go fuck yourself.

 

No you are so blinded that you can't see it isn't up to the club to do more than they already are doing. It is up to the players. 

 

Awe you tire of my insults. Well at least my cock can reach my ass.

[VWFC]

 

Now you're being silly.  But that's okay, I'll walk you through it.  Top right of the page, there are percentages which represent the amount of playing time given to Canadians by the five professional teams in this country (Canada).  Vancouver's number is the lowest.  That means that they gave the lowest amount of playing time to Canadians out of all five professional teams in this country (Canada).  If you want an objective/goal so that these threads stop: just don't be the worst.

 

Great thanks.  Just a few clarifications would be appreciated.

 

1. Does the team at the bottom automatically 'hate Canada'?  or is there a threshold you'd be happy with?

2. Does the percentages include CC and CCL?

3. Are there any bonus points for minutes from players that are developed by the club?  As we all know the key for Canada is a deeper and better playing pool rather than minutes for the old guard who have already shown aren't good enough.

[El Hombre]

You'll have to ask Jonovision about all that.  He compiles it every year.

 

The fact remains that you and TRM asked a question, I answered it.  I was under no illusions that it would change either one's mind.

[jonovision]

Great thanks.  Just a few clarifications would be appreciated.

 

1. Does the team at the bottom automatically 'hate Canada'?  or is there a threshold you'd be happy with?

2. Does the percentages include CC and CCL?

3. Are there any bonus points for minutes from players that are developed by the club?  As we all know the key for Canada is a deeper and better playing pool rather than minutes for the old guard who have already shown aren't good enough.

 

1. I present the data mostly without comment. Feel free to draw your own conclusions. Though I feel like 20% is a bare minimum an MLS team should be satisfied with. 40% for a team in NASL. None of the teams reached either mark this year.

2. Yes. All competitive matches. MLS/NASL playoffs as well. Not friendlies.

3. No bonus points awarded. Although just scanning through the data (which you can do too, by clicking the "details" link which takes you to a spreadsheet) it appears that a greater proportion of the MLS minutes are being given to young players, with Patrice Bernier, INF and De Rosario being the lone exceptions (all of whom amassed fewer minutes than guys like Osorio or Teibert).

 

If you keep checking back in, you can expect a post with a more detailed breakdown of the numbers within the next week or so.

[VWFC]

You'll have to ask Jonovision about all that.  He compiles it every year.

 

The fact remains that you and TRM asked a question, I answered it.  I was under no illusions that it would change either one's mind.

 

I will ask Jonovision about question #2.  Can you let me know about #1 & #3?

 

I'm not sure what TRM or changing one's mind has to do with what I asked?

[canucklefan]

It’s too bad that this thread became a conflict between TFC and Whitecaps. I understand that Whitecaps fans are probably the most loyal to their club than TFC’s and Impact’s, but I find it’s a shame that they will put always the Whitecaps before the MNT... in a MNT forum!

 

I used to criticize the Whitecaps but I realised it was unfair because neither TFC nor the Impact are a reference in Canadian content:

1. TFC had 2 regulars, Osorio and Henry. Bekker could be considered a 3^rd regular or could not.

2. Impact had Bernier as a regular but I won’t consider him a regular for MNT purposes because he’s too old for the next WCQ campaign. I’m not sure Tissot played enough to be considered a regular.

3. The Whitecaps had one regular, Teibert.

 

Let’s say Bekker and Tissot were regulars this season. That makes 3 regulars for TFC, 1 for the Impact and 1 for the Whitecaps.

 

Can anyone conclude that 3 regulars against 1 is to considered a reference?

 

I won’t criticize anymore the Whitecaps but I have issues with the arguments of some Whitecaps posters:

 

Clubs exist to win and make money.

Clubs are also sanctioned by the CSA, which means they are of the program. That’s why I’m so pissed about the possibility that the Whitecaps management supported Bustos decision to attend a Chile camp. That would mean that the program is broken as there’s something fundamentally wrong that happened there.

 

1) Running an academy before it was even in MLS.

2) Providing first rate training for kids 12-18

3) Providing well paying jobs to 18 year old players from their academy 

4) Being beyond the minimum players required by the CSA

5) Using up roster spots on the 30 man roster

6) Training them with the first team daily

 

 All that means nothing if the final results is no professional or first team minutes. The arguments mean nothing to the program and to the chances to qualify to a WC.

 

Finally, there was a poster that suggested in the “Canadian in MLS” thread to find someone in Osorio's position so he can be benched, and then release Bekker, as if the program had a ton of Canadian professional players. I wonder what’s the meaning behind those wishes, to make Floro’s job more difficult than it already is? To decrease Canada’s chances to qualify to a WC? Not that the chances are high anyways....

 

Sometimes I don’t really understand the logic behind some of the arguments.

[tmcmurph]

It’s too bad that this thread became a conflict between TFC and Whitecaps. I understand that Whitecaps fans are probably the most loyal to their club than TFC’s and Impact’s, but I find it’s a shame that they will put always the Whitecaps before the MNT... in a MNT forum!

 

I used to criticize the Whitecaps but I realised it was unfair because neither TFC nor the Impact are a reference in Canadian content:

1. TFC had 2 regulars, Osorio and Henry. Bekker could be considered a 3^rd regular or could not.

2. Impact had Bernier as a regular but I won’t consider him a regular for MNT purposes because he’s too old for the next WCQ campaign. I’m not sure Tissot played enough to be considered a regular.

3. The Whitecaps had one regular, Teibert.

 

Let’s say Bekker and Tissot were regulars this season. That makes 3 regulars for TFC, 1 for the Impact and 1 for the Whitecaps.

 

Can anyone conclude that 3 regulars against 1 is to considered a reference?

 

I won’t criticize anymore the Whitecaps but I have issues with the arguments of some Whitecaps posters:

 

Clubs exist to win and make money.

Clubs are also sanctioned by the CSA, which means they are of the program. That’s why I’m so pissed about the possibility that the Whitecaps management supported Bustos decision to attend a Chile camp. That would mean that the program is broken as there’s something fundamentally wrong that happened there.

 

1) Running an academy before it was even in MLS.

2) Providing first rate training for kids 12-18

3) Providing well paying jobs to 18 year old players from their academy 

4) Being beyond the minimum players required by the CSA

5) Using up roster spots on the 30 man roster

6) Training them with the first team daily

 

 All that means nothing if the final results is no professional or first team minutes. The arguments mean nothing to the program and to the chances to qualify to a WC.

 

Finally, there was a poster that suggested in the “Canadian in MLS” thread to find someone in Osorio's position so he can be benched, and then release Bekker, as if the program had a ton of Canadian professional players. I wonder what’s the meaning behind those wishes, to make Floro’s job more difficult than it already is? To decrease Canada’s chances to qualify to a WC? Not that the chances are high anyways....

 

Sometimes I don’t really understand the logic behind some of the arguments.

 

I do not put the Caps ahead of the MNT. Like I said up thread to me it would be like choosing which of your children you love more. 

 

Clubs exist to win and make money. That is what pays for the academy and development of the players. Nothing is more important to the future of Canadian soccer than for all 3 MLS teams to be successful on the field and make the playoffs. That is what will create lasting support, growing awareness and media acceptance. That is why I honestly hope for all 3 to make the playoffs each and every year. 

 

All 6 of those mean nothing without first team or pro minutes? At least you included pro minutes to acknowledge players developed by a club made it to the pro level perhaps not with the club that developed them. Those pro/first team minutes are never going to be given in Canada or Europe. They have to be taken by the player. At what point do you put the onus on the player? I put it on them once they get a pro contract and make the 30 man roster. From there on it is up to them. 

 

The Caps have had more academy players go on to the MNT than TFC or Impact. We are successful at producing quality players. That is helping our MNT program more than anything else by raising the level of competition and providing starters and depth at all positions.

 

Not all players who get signed to the 30 man roster chose to stay with the club. Some want to try Europe. That is the players' choice. Some will have their development stagnate others will thrive. That is up to the player. They have been given everything that can be expected by a club.

[canucklefan]

I do not put the Caps ahead of the MNT. Like I said up thread to me it would be like choosing which of your children you love more. 

 

Clubs exist to win and make money. That is what pays for the academy and development of the players. Nothing is more important to the future of Canadian soccer than for all 3 MLS teams to be successful on the field and make the playoffs. That is what will create lasting support, growing awareness and media acceptance. That is why I honestly hope for all 3 to make the playoffs each and every year. 

 

All 6 of those mean nothing without first team or pro minutes? At least you included pro minutes to acknowledge players developed by a club made it to the pro level perhaps not with the club that developed them. Those pro/first team minutes are never going to be given in Canada or Europe. They have to be taken by the player. At what point do you put the onus on the player? I put it on them once they get a pro contract and make the 30 man roster. From there on it is up to them. 

 

The Caps have had more academy players go on to the MNT than TFC or Impact. We are successful at producing quality players. That is helping our MNT program more than anything else by raising the level of competition and providing starters and depth at all positions.

 

Not all players who get signed to the 30 man roster chose to stay with the club. Some want to try Europe. That is the players' choice. Some will have their development stagnate others will thrive. That is up to the player. They have been given everything that can be expected by a club.

Great piece of PR!!!!

[tmcmurph]

Great piece of PR!!!!

 

It's called reality. Try visiting it sometime.

 

So where do you put the onus on the player?