narduch Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Isn't Lord Bob a Whitecaps fan? Should tell all the Whitecaps apologists all they need to know about the situation at their club. We've seen a number of other Vancouver area fans on this board criticize the Whitecaps on this issue as well. I bet we'll be having this same debate again next year, and the year after that, and so on. People will stop ripping on the Caps when they start to see some real tangible improvement in the number of Canadians playing for the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 If the Whitecaps had given these players EVERY CHANCE (caps is your effect) to develop they would have given them some MLS minutes to see what they could do. And there is YOUR problem "they would have given them some MLS minutes". If you are that thick in the head that you think minutes are given at a pro level team then you are completely wrong. They are taken. Hey how about that U20 team? 9 Caps or former residency players. How many of them will crack the gameday 18 or starting 11? Depending on openings and a lot of other factors, 1 maybe 2. How many will go on to pro careers? Most. Oh but the Caps aren't giving their players a chance. They are not doing things YOUR WAY. That's because they don't want to be LOSERS. It all comes back to that STUPID and myopic "MLS minutes". Yes getting playing time at MLS level is important but without the academy how many would get it anywhere in the world? Only those who could go overseas at a young age. When the Caps don't think a player is good enough you all dump on them for not taking a look at them in an MLS game. Then when they do you all whine about them not getting enough. Your arguments are stupid, circular and repetitious. You will not win by just repeating nonsense so often you hope that people take it as real. It isn't real and you are not realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Isn't Lord Bob a Whitecaps fan? Should tell all the Whitecaps apologists all they need to know about the situation at their club. We've seen a number of other Vancouver area fans on this board criticize the Whitecaps on this issue as well. I bet we'll be having this same debate again next year, and the year after that, and so on. People will stop ripping on the Caps when they start to see some real tangible improvement in the number of Canadians playing for the club. Lord Bod is one of those confused individuals who can not. or will not. separate club and country. Clubs exist to win and make money. They develop local talent that sometimes goes on to play on the first team and sometimes on the MNT. No people won't stop dumping on the Caps because all they have is this "MLS minutes bullshit" to hang their hat on. You think Alderson is so good you tell TFC or the Impact to sign him and play him. Go ahead. Why aren't you jumping for joy at the chance to snag an obvious MLS level player? For FREE. The Caps have done more for Canadian soccer than any other team or organization at all levels. The Caps academy players have more MNT appearances than either TFC or Montreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Clubs exist to win and make money. So the Whitecaps are just some business, like a dentist or a bank? Great! Nobody cheers for businesses! I fully expect to never see a Whitecaps kit again. Or do clubs base their entire justification off some connection to the community? I guess it's forgiven with all that winning the Canadian-free Whitecaps have done. EDIT: in case it isn't obvious, I am frustrated. You want numbers? In 2009 the Whitecaps played Canadians for 10244 minutes in the league, their worst figure in the USL First Division era, and had a decent team that beat Toronto FC. So let's call 10000 minutes my happy place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Your arguments are stupid, circular and repetitious. You will not win by just repeating nonsense so often you hope that people take it as real. It isn't real and you are not realistic. This statement perfectly describes your own arguments on this issue. You aren't right just because you think you are and are willing to go to bat for the Whitecaps endlessly no matter what they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 So the Whitecaps are just some business, like a dentist or a bank? Great! Nobody cheers for businesses! I fully expect to never see a Whitecaps kit again. Or do clubs base their entire justification off some connection to the community? I guess it's forgiven with all that winning the Canadian-free Whitecaps have done. Nice of you to leave out that "They develop local talent that sometimes goes on to play on the first team and sometimes on the MNT. " part. Nice of you to overlook the fact that we've got appearances on the MNT for our academy players than anyone else. Winning in MLS is hard but we've made the playoffs twice in 4 years. Next year it gets harder as SKC and Houston join the west. 50 points this year, 48 last year, 43 the year before. Yes that is winning and improving year by year. So the question was posted above that nobody has answered. How many MLS minutes for Canadians before you STFU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 This statement perfectly describes your own arguments on this issue. You aren't right just because you think you are and are willing to go to bat for the Whitecaps endlessly no matter what they do. The Caps have done more for Canadian soccer than any other team or organization at all levels. The Caps academy players have more MNT appearances than either TFC or Montreal. So the question was posted above that nobody has answered. How many MLS minutes for Canadians before you STFU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Winning in MLS is hard but we've made the playoffs twice in 4 years. More than half the teams in the West made the playoffs the last four seasons. The Whitecaps, who once won titles, barely snuck into the top half half the time. This impresses you? You may have missed my edit. Returning to 2009 levels of Canadian content would please me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 More than half the teams in the West made the playoffs the last four seasons. The Whitecaps, who once won titles, barely snuck into the top half half the time. This impresses you? You may have missed my edit. Returning to 2009 levels of Canadian content would please me. 2009? That was D2. You want to go back to D2 go right ahead. We'll have that next year in our USL Pro team. So if we have 2009 levels of minutes in our USL Pro team you'll be happy? Yes we have won titles in the past in a very different league and time (NASL) and at a lower levels of play (A-League/D2). That fact that we have improved every year since our first MLS season impresses me. That fact that we are playing in the top league in Canada/USA and not settling for being a big fish in a small D2 pond impresses me. The fact that 9 players on our U20 team came from our system impresses me. The fact that the Caps academy players have more MNT appearances than either TFC or Montreal impresses me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 USL Pro is Division Three. If the Whitecaps rack up 10,000 Canadian minutes in 2015 on a USL Pro team that contends for the title and beats MLS opposition I actually will be impressed. Not as impressed as I'm gonna be if they did it with their first team, of course. I'm interested that you deride the second division as a "small pond" but consider average seasons and U-20 appearances the perfect just indication for a team that hasn't played a single Canadian every day since 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 USL Pro is Division Three. If the Whitecaps rack up 10,000 Canadian minutes in 2015 on a USL Pro team that contends for the title and beats MLS opposition I actually will be impressed. Not as impressed as I'm gonna be if they did it with their first team, of course. I'm interested that you deride the second division as a "small pond" but consider average seasons and U-20 appearances the perfect just indication for a team that hasn't played a single Canadian every day since 2010. What do you consider NASL/USL Pro compared to MLS? I find NASL & USL Pro to be close on level of play with a slight edge to NASL. I'm not disrespecting it by saying it is a small pond compared to MLS. It is. That is just a fact. NASL has between 8-10 teams usually and USL Pro is regional and more for development. MLS has 21 teams next year and will hit 22 soon. It is a much bigger pool and the players are improving in quality faster than NASL. We need NASL and USL Pro more now than ever. The spots on the MLS team are allocated strictly on who the coach feels will win and hence help him keep his job. More playing time is required for the players coming up but you can't expect an 18 year old to be a starter in MLS very often. The league is too tough for that. We are in a different league now than we were in 2010. We were in a lower league in 2010 and how many of those players made the jump to MLS in 2011 and survived our first year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I've tried to crunch numbers to compare MLS, NASL, and USL Pro. I haven't found anything that would surprise anyone: good NASL teams beat bad MLS teams, good USL Pro teams beat bad NASL teams, but there is a difference in overall quality of course. But I can't swear to it, yet. On my to-do list is going over players who've been in both NASL and USL Pro. Players from 2010 to 2012? Offhand: Chiumiento, Koffie, Teibert. But I do think retaining so few good 2009 players was a blunder. (The 2010 Whitecaps were, secretly, shit.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Players from 2010 to 2012? Offhand: Chiumiento, Koffie, Teibert. But I do think retaining so few good 2009 players was a blunder. (The 2010 Whitecaps were, secretly, shit.) I meant Canadians that made the jump from D2 in 2009/10 to MLS in 2011. And of those I think only Teibert was still there in 2012. Phil was there in 2011 but gone before 2012. As a matter of fact the Caps have increased their CMNT eligible players signed to contracts every year. 2011 = 2. 2012 = 3. 2013 = 4 . 2014 = 6. I'm looking forward to 7 or more next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I meant Canadians that made the jump from D2 in 2009/10 to MLS in 2011. And of those I think only Teibert was still there in 2012. Phil was there in 2011 but gone before 2012. And that's what he meant as well.. Koffie and Chiumiento were on the team in 2010 (d2). I don't recall either tearing up the league. MLS is a powerful propaganda machine and for that I give them 100% credit. Honestly you would think that the gap from MLS to NASL is NHL to AHL with the way MLS treats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 And that's what he meant as well.. Koffie and Chiumiento were on the team in 2010 (d2). I don't recall either tearing up the league. MLS is a powerful propaganda machine and for that I give them 100% credit. Honestly you would think that the gap from MLS to NASL is NHL to AHL with the way MLS treats it. No he said "Returning to 2009 levels of Canadian content would please me". Koffie and DC were not CMNT eligible. To return to the 2009 level of minutes for Canadians we'd have to go back to D2. I'd rather we keep signing promising players from our academy and see how many work out at the MLS level. Eventually we will get back there but it is a long path. There are no quick fixes. Developing players takes a lot of resources and time and is frustratingly hit and miss. From when I first started watching MLS (2007 when TFC joined) it is night and day difference compared to today. The MLS is very hype oriented but the level of play has increased dramatically over the last 7 years. NASL is still where it was plus a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I like how there's always an excuse for the fact that the Whitecaps will pick a foreign player over a domestic every time. Listen, everyone, the last four seasons have just been a series of remarkable and unfortunate coincidences where exceptional young Canadians who killed it at every level they got an opportunity at were squeezed out of the eighteen! It's not a question of where their priorities lie at all, really! Come on Ben. To say that Bryce, or some of these other young kids, have 'killed it at every level' is simply watching the games through red maple leaf glasses. I was sitting in Casa Grande Arizona in February, eavesdropping on members of the Charleston Battery coaching staff as they were slagging the loan players they received in 2013, saying they weren't good enough. Your opinion might be different, and that is fine. But from what I saw in both pre season and reserve games was a player that was not having enough of an impact. The promise is still there though. The player needs to stay injury free and play games. I hope he finds the place to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Well, then it's up to those exceptional young Canadians to prove WC wrong. Maybe Alderson can be the first to do so... Bang on. While I support the Caps, nothing would make me happier than to see Alderson go on to great success somewhere else. He is free to find the best opportunity for himself, and rest is up to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Sam Adekugbe has played 283 MLS minutes in two seasons despite being up against an absolutely God-awful left back for playing time. He was benched in the playoffs for God-awful Left Back and Ethan Sampson. Russell Teibert once went almost an entire MLS season without playing and is jerked around the lineup or benched at a whim. He, also, was benched in the playoffs, in exchange for Rusty Gershon Koffie. Randy Edwini-Bonsu was cut by the Whitecaps without even getting a preseason trial. He is currently doing reasonably well in Germany. Philippe Davies was cut by the Whitecaps without playing a minute, Tom Soehn callously wasting a year of prime development time. He's finally getting his career back on track in Ottawa despite being cut off. Ben Fisk was never given a professional contract by the Whitecaps because Erik Hurtado is just so good; he, also, lost a year of prime development time in 2013 to the Whitecaps. He's getting his career off to a good start with Coruxo. Bryce was "squeezed out of the 18" by never being given a chance, and by the team constantly chasing foreign players like the omnipotent John Thorrington, mighty Jun Marques Davidson and the legendary Matt Watson rather than play him. No, he's not better than Matias Laba. It's like the Whitecaps have a philosophy of "oh, we can't give those Canadians a look, we better bring in a DP rather than play one and hopefully we can exit in the first round of the playoffs again." Oh Ben, if I owned a pro team, I wouldn't be hiring you as a scout! Jordan Harvey is not a world class player, but he is not God awful. We all know you like to exaggerate, but even that is a bit much. He is a very serviceable, probably above average MLS fullback. He is also 30. Sam is 19. Sam has been a pro for one season and two months. He has been injured for a decent chunk of that time. Sam is a great talent and this changing of the guard will happen. Russell Teibert is still only 21 years old and has been in the league for 4 years. He started the teams first ever MLS game as a 17 year old. Is that not giving young players a chance? Sure, he didn't play much in 2012, but he worked hard in the offseason and proved Martin Rennie wrong the next year, and has played a pivotal role in the team ever since. That is the sort of desire and attitude I want in our young national team players, not someone that just expects to walk onto the team sheet. REB ASKED to be released. How many times do I have to say that? Teitur wanted to keep him. Randy and his agent wanted to try Europe. Phil Davies is a head scratcher to me. Love the kid. His play in the 2010 pre MLS season left me very excited. But there are a lot of factors that go into whether a player develops or not, and a lot of that is on the player. Randy once told me that Phil was the most talented young player he ever played with. Should he have gotten into a game in 2011? I don't know if he earned it, but it would have been nice to see. Thankfully the dick that is Tom Soehn who made that decision is no longer around. What I do know is that since he left Vancouver, Phil has played 3 pro seasons, 2 in Richmond and 1 in Ottawa. During that time, I have never seen him play like he did in 2010. I had higher hopes for Fisk. When I watched him play U18, I thought he was a can't miss prospect. He got his chance though. He was kept around, trained with the senior team, was given a long look at training camp this year. He just didn't earn a contract where other Canadians have. If USL Pro had been around a year or two ago, this might have been different. If you want to compare the Spanish third tier to MLS though, go right ahead. Although you posted it in your blog, Bryce Alderson is NOT a defensive midfielder. He is a deep lying playmaker. Comparing him to Davidson and Laba is like comparing Andrea Pirlo to Gennaro Gattuso. They may play the same position but serve completely different functions. Feel free to shit on Thorrington and Watson all you want, but in my opinion every team can use a couple of character, experienced guys like that. Any other players you want to throw in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 If the Whitecaps had given these players EVERY CHANCE (caps is your effect) to develop they would have given them some MLS minutes to see what they could do. You think coaches can't get an idea whether players are capable of playing by training sessions and reserve matches? What benefit is there to playing players that are either not ready, or deemed not good enough? Oscar Cordon Gabe Gala Derek Gaudet Tyler Hemming Andrea Lombardo Keith Makubuya Joey Melo David Monsalve Tyler Rosenlund Matt Stinson Emery Welshman Gianluca Zavarise A list of young Canadians that have played a league match for TFC...then later released. In terms of their pro careers, what long term benefit did it provide them? How many of them are even still in the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 REB ASKED to be released. How many times do I have to say that? Teitur wanted to keep him. Randy and his agent wanted to try Europe. I actually genuinely didn't know that; I might have been told but I didn't remember. This is good intel! (I will plead guilty to wearing maple-leaf glasses, by the way. We all have our biases, and not only am I biased towards Canadian kids but I think a young Canadian should get a shot over a veteran foreigner on a Canadian club, even if the Canadian's a bit worse.) Anyway, good thoughtful post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xman14 Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I envy the European set up for circumstances such as this... It allows players like Alderson not to fall through the cracks at such a rapid pace. I couldn't help think that after watching that u20 Canada v England game how many of the young Canucks are going to have to wait to get their next legitimate test. Players like Carducci, Boakai, Froese, Jalali, Hamilton, Bustos, and Adekugbe have all done incredibly well to be awarded with first team contracts, however unless they are still eligible to play in u18 games (Whitecaps lads) they are more or less relegated to trying to become a professional in training, with a handful of real tests per year. You mix in the odd reserve or youth national game and compare that to what players abroad get, and the differences are staggering.... Looking at that England u20 team made me incredibly jealous, only a few of the players had made premier league appearances but the opportunity for 90 mins every week in high competition was available everywhere. Premier League u21 games and season long loans were the norm for the majority of the squad, while they might not be making an impact today for their parent club they are still able to showcase and refine their ability to give themselves a fighting chance for tomorrow. We've seen this system benefit immensely for both Petrasso and Carreiro. I think to prevent similar cases such as Alderson clubs should always be looking to place their players where they are going to get the most minutes. Anderson had a productive time at Charleston but he realistically should have been there for another season, its easy to say the Whitecaps didn't give him a fair shake but to be honest they hadn't provided him the means to do so in Vancouver. By signing world class CM's they may have been giving him good tutors but there was no way Bryce was going to steal minutes from Koffie, Laba, Rosales, or Morales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barthez-Battalion Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I envy the European set up for circumstances such as this... It allows players like Alderson not to fall through the cracks at such a rapid pace. I couldn't help think that after watching that u20 Canada v England game how many of the young Canucks are going to have to wait to get their next legitimate test. Players like Carducci, Boakai, Froese, Jalali, Hamilton, Bustos, and Adekugbe have all done incredibly well to be awarded with first team contracts, however unless they are still eligible to play in u18 games (Whitecaps lads) they are more or less relegated to trying to become a professional in training, with a handful of real tests per year. You mix in the odd reserve or youth national game and compare that to what players abroad get, and the differences are staggering.... Looking at that England u20 team made me incredibly jealous, only a few of the players had made premier league appearances but the opportunity for 90 mins every week in high competition was available everywhere. Premier League u21 games and season long loans were the norm for the majority of the squad, while they might not be making an impact today for their parent club they are still able to showcase and refine their ability to give themselves a fighting chance for tomorrow. We've seen this system benefit immensely for both Petrasso and Carreiro. I think to prevent similar cases such as Alderson clubs should always be looking to place their players where they are going to get the most minutes. Anderson had a productive time at Charleston but he realistically should have been there for another season, its easy to say the Whitecaps didn't give him a fair shake but to be honest they hadn't provided him the means to do so in Vancouver. By signing world class CM's they may have been giving him good tutors but there was no way Bryce was going to steal minutes from Koffie, Laba, Rosales, or Morales. Developing players will be a pain in the ass for the next while since we are still devloping a lot of aspects of our soccer culture. We still don't even have a league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 How was Bryce "squeezed out of the 18? Oh right TFC gave us Laba which pushed hin down to 4th in the DM spot (By the way thanks a ton for Mattias, great player). I realize that you're trying to connect everyone criticizing the Whitecaps for their lack of Canadian content to TFC, but thanking Lord Bob (of all people) for the Matias Laba trade takes the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 And there is YOUR problem "they would have given them some MLS minutes". If you are that thick in the head that you think minutes are given at a pro level team then you are completely wrong. They are taken. Hey how about that U20 team? 9 Caps or former residency players. How many of them will crack the gameday 18 or starting 11? Depending on openings and a lot of other factors, 1 maybe 2. How many will go on to pro careers? Most. Oh but the Caps aren't giving their players a chance. They are not doing things YOUR WAY. That's because they don't want to be LOSERS. It all comes back to that STUPID and myopic "MLS minutes". Yes getting playing time at MLS level is important but without the academy how many would get it anywhere in the world? Only those who could go overseas at a young age. When the Caps don't think a player is good enough you all dump on them for not taking a look at them in an MLS game. Then when they do you all whine about them not getting enough. Your arguments are stupid, circular and repetitious. You will not win by just repeating nonsense so often you hope that people take it as real. It isn't real and you are not realistic. Well, you guys keep bragging how Vancouver Whitecaps is a CLUB, so guess what clubs do? They develop their own players and that includes bringing players into the first team and giving them minutes to see what they can do. We're not talking about giving them a 1000 minutes, we're talking about a handful of appearances of 15-20 minutes to see if they look out of place. If the 'Caps had done that with Alderson he probably wouldn't have left. And if you did that with other young players you might be surprised at how they do and end up with more Canadians in the line-up. That's what a club does, anything other than that and you're not cheering on a club, you're cheering on a business. A business who is not willing to give every chance to it's Canadian players (and remember. GIVE was your Mr. word thick-in-the-head) by making short-term sacrifice (or investment since you seem to be such a business man) to build their own products, but would rather outsource to foreigners to purchase ready-made players so that they can compete NOW. You are cheering on the soccer equivalent of Wal-mart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 TRM, the need to resort to personal attacks on posters who don't buy into your narrative is uncalled for. As amusing as this thread is to view from afar, the entertainment value drops when you do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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