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kj52

Morace to quit after WWC?

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I disagree with our funding being in the top 5. IMO our funding can not compete with any nation that has a women's league with pro clubs. The reason being is those nations that are well formed in a womens league structure also have the same for their national program. The 2 go hand in hand to be able to be financially and on the field successful for the women versus the CSA system of women players and their families sacrificing a large part of their life to make up for the downfalls of the CSA.

As for domestic leagues we will alway agree on the important role it plays in player development Sadly the lack of a pro league falls on the shoulders of the CSA too. IMO who in their right mind is going to start a pro league in Canada with all the BS that is going on up top with the CSA. If the amateur system is broken how do pro teams rely on getting a good feeder system to the top. This is one of the reasons CM walked as like EP the CSA restricted their roles in shaping the feeder structure under the NT's.

The UEFA structure has 28 countries with women's leagues. Those clubs in those leagues either support themselves or are embedded in both gender clubs.

http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/women/index.html

Another benefit of the Euro system is they treat their women with respect by looking after them in a profession manner like the pro men. Like the pro men the women have or are in the process of getting pro contracts or CBA's that interface with their NT duties. Examples of CBA's the FA women's league players and FA WSL as well.

Finally let's clarify something that people get wrong about sports contracts or CBA's or funding. They are not all about money. There are other priorities that come before that like insurance whether it's accident, disability if a player can no longer play pro or retain their scholarship, education, appearance fee/cash prizes, access to neutral dispute resolution, maternity leave, travel arrangements, family tickets, number of game in home country, per diem (yep, ours is $10) mutual respect for pro and college player contracts and the list goes on and on...........

If the the USSF on $1-2 per member and a lot of sponsors can do the below while struggling with a domestic league then how should we hold the CSA responsible?

http://www.bigapplesoccer.com/article.php?article_id=5125

You totally lose me when you start trying to blame the CSA for the lack of a women's professional league.

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I've heard rumours from people close to the team that there are a number of "her very large staff" who have been working for the team for free and/or without a contract. Probably wouldn't be the case if she had 'full control'

many NT coaches, on both the male and female side of the ledger, work without a contract. They get paid for days of service when brough to camps. this is nothing earthshattering or controversial. It is standard within the CSA. There area very few coaches who work with our NTs that get full time contracts. I'd like to see that change but that is the present reality. I doubt CM was promised 10-12 staffers being given full time contracts.

As for those who may agree to work for free, the CSA is still required to pay airfare, lodging and food + gear and those coaches are likely getting experience that will benefit them in the future. No one works for free unless they stand to benefit from it somehow.

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What makes you guys think that any coach is willing to step into a well publicized toxic work environment that lacks funding and commitment from the BOD?

I'd be willing to bet you the cost of airfare to Germany for WWC 2011 that the CSA would have no lack of qualified applicants for the job if Carolina follows through with her resignation, especially if the CSA is able to land the 2015 WC. Who wouldn't want to take over a program that is guaranteed to be in the World Cup? There are alot worse gigs.

If memory serves, they had an impressive list of candidates to consider when they hired Carolina 2 years ago.

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What the CSA needs to do immediately is park a gag order on any more discussion of this until 2014 and 2015 is announced. And with serious consequences for people breaking it who put themselves before the country.

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'm a little surprised at you, Vic. Maybe I shouldn't be because the last time we spoke you said you felt she had the full support of the CSA-- which is the most naieve thing I've ever heard ANYONE SAY... EVER. The first 3 things on your list are ridiculous because they are things she could have easily done due diligence about and are not germane to QUITTING A JOB. Suggesting that she's so fickle a person that WEATHER could be a factor in her QUITTING borders on disrespectful to her. Ya know what? I'm not going to respond to your comment further because it's an expression of ___ that doesn't warrant as much attention as I've given it. But here's what I posted elsewhere:

I'm with KJ52. This is a strategic move.

Morace is a genius. The team she's compiled is a brilliant group-- players from Saskatoon, Manitoba, some hadn't played for NT in years yet still great players, individuals who used to play D now STRIKING + SCORING. Let's face it she picked a squa few MALE coaches have the cojones to assemble because most MALE coaches wanna impress or fall in line with their buddies. Everything she's done TO the players-- transformed their practices, play + mentality and BELIEF. Everything she's done FOR the players-- stuff very few (need to) know about. She is leading like a true genius.

This is a strike AT THE PERFECT TIME to make this headline news in Canada. It was a power move that makes CSA answer for its decisions TOMORROW.

And for the players, the only thing that has changed is they all are even more VISCERALLY AWARE that nobody knows what the future holds. You've gotta grab hold of the opportunities and squeeze everything you can out of them. Half of us sleep-walk thru our lives but NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR THAT! All they know / knew is that they have ONE SHOT to CLAIM the TITLE. They knew that before but one assumes a coach's tenure will be longer than 2 years, especially given this much success. Morace's move reminds all the players that the future is promised to NO ONE.

GO GIT IT LADIES! I'm proud of Morace. I'm proud of the team. I said before now that CANADA will win but I'll say it here + now.

CANADA WILL WIN THE 2011 WORLD CUP. No team has more on the line than this group. No team has more talent that is hungry to prove itself than this group. No team has a coach with the tools + willingness to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to win, like Morace. CANADA will be 2011 World Cup Champions + I'm looking forward to watching that. Cheering. And spending much of the Fall with no voice but a heart full of joy.

Ingrid Green.

Finally some frank talk in amongst all the wind baggers..........i couldn't agree with you more......

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"it's co-existence or no existence" and that seems to be the case for the CSA BOD. The WP and WNT since the Charmaine Hooper days of her busting the CSA BOD chops have been asking and waiting on the CSA BOD. The WP and WNT have even had to go get their own sponsors to fund their programs rather than wait on the CSA . A couple of examples that have been discussed here -

- U17 team and their families did their own funding to get the monies they needed to prepare for their WC

- WNT gets Kerfoot involved for funding their residency camp. Funds only available if the monies are handled outside of CSA accounts.

- Teck gets involved with funding after years of contract negotiations with the CSA on keeping the the Teck funding separate from CSA accounts and only for the WNT

All of the above and let's not forget the sacrifices the WP families have had to make like our Seniors players having to live at home to being able to afford to train for the WWC. Pro players not being able to sign pro deals as the time demands and scheduling of the WNT are too great.

Now we have Carolina and Kara calling out the CSA to walk the talk. Now we have the newspapers asking the CSA about how the money is being used for the WP and WNT programs. What has the CSA done lately funding wise beside moving the WNT funding rewards around in the CSA.

I have nothing positive to say to the CSA board as what they have done at the top with the WP has impacted the whole sport below it. The reform for no PSO Presidents at the top can't come quick enough for me. But like Carolina, Kara and the newspapers have revealed there are some immediate problems that need to be addressed NOW.

I'm with you CoachRich......

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What the CSA needs to do immediately is park a gag order on any more discussion of this until 2014 and 2015 is announced. And with serious consequences for people breaking it who put themselves before the country.

The genie is out of the bottle. A gag order will not stop the players from talking amongst themselves and/or with their families. Any negativity will still be there simmering in the background and only building with time.

The issue will still be very alive in the minds of the fans of the sport. I doubt a gag order will stop speculation & discussion on this board. And in many ways, speculation without facts is worse than actual knowledge.

This issue is being talked about in the US, and I am sure in other areas around the world. Canada was starting to look like they were stepping up into the big leagues of womens soccer. Eyes were already on us. Do you think FIFA delegates aren’t aware of this? If we can’t properly run our own house, how can we be trusted with hosting the world in 2014/2015. Will a gag order build confidence among delegates?

The only thing it might succeed at is take pressure off CSA to actually address the issue in a timely maner. But the issue is there. Its not going away. It needs to be addressed - and addressed sooner rather than later.

Some think this is a power play by CM to set herself up for a big payday with a wealthy soccer nation after the world cup. And you know what: it may be. I hope not - and I don't think it is - but it may be. But unless this issue is properly brought out into the open - we don't know.

But from early on, I think many of us have seen signs from CM that there were issues around control of the program. We have a national team coach, who is having great success, who seems to have little input into our development teams. That doesn't seem right to me - and there have been hints from almost the very beginning that CM doesn't think thats right either. We had some other home games that were hoped for & hinted at... and then they never occurred. Is it a money issue? The WNT brought some money into the CSA this year, but appears to have not benefitted from it... should they have? It would seem fair to me... especially in a WC year…. but I don't know all the facts.

I know the reason that we put people in charge to run things is that an organization the size of the CSA cannot work as a pure democracy. We can't have a membership vote for every issue. We select a handful of people to represent the population, and generally trust them to do their jobs. But it seems that from time to time concerns arise about leadership in any organization. I think the proper response by those appointed to act on our behalf is to say "There is a great deal of concern about this issue - these are the reasons behind the issue - this is what we have done - this is where we are trying to get to"

This is one of those cases that needs to be dealt with up front, openly and quickly. This issue may have boiled over at a bad time – but it didn’t come out of nowhere. Every indication I have seen is that those in power could have – and SHOULD have seen this coming and dealt with it before it reached the boiling point. Its too late to say “let the leadership deal with this privately”. The leaders had their chance to deal with this quietly, and they appear to have done nothing.

Lets get this resolved.

Edited by hc1
coherence....

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Many NT coaches, on both the male and female side of the ledger, work without a contract. They get paid for days of service when brough to camps. this is nothing earthshattering or controversial. It is standard within the CSA. There area very few coaches who work with our NTs that get full time contracts. I'd like to see that change but that is the present reality. I doubt CM was promised 10-12 staffers being given full time contracts.

The comment about it being standard in the CSA is what is at the root of pretty much all issues here! Just because it is 'the standard' doesn't mean it should continue.

As for the 10-12 full-time contracts, that probably isn't what Morace was ever expecting, but A contract, even just part-time, would be more than enough.

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Duane, Cyprus Cup was in 2009. Check the records, I think you'll find this was the 2009 budget. (or am I mistaken?)

edit/ better googling confuses me more, but I guess I was wrong in thinking Cyprus Cup was every other year, it appears it's annual... /edit

PS the women are having $580k "support" to Sports Science charged against the CWNT. How does that directly benefit the program?

Edited by paul-collins

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Please disregard the above post, I have made some basic errors in reading the documents. However, there are two points I would like to make here:

The $580k for the women is for the listed competitions plus the support to Sports Science. Men had $577k in competitions for 5 friendlies.

The women have $328k listed for overhead costs, whereas the men have $522k overhead listed.

The men's numbers total what is listed as the total of $1.099m. The women's numbers total $908k, but the budget is listed at $1.65m. What causes this discrepancy?

Final point: Men's WC qualifying year (2008) the total expenditure on senior teams was $2.2m more than this past year.

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Random hypotheses and a couple of questions.

Hypothesis 1: It is hard to see this as a Machiavellian move by Morace. Resigning at this time is a very risky move for future team success . Quiet confidence is better than the desperation of a “last chance”. It is also risky from a personal perspective – what future employer won’t consider her something of a threat if they perceive her move here as a power play of some sort? The more rational explanation is that it was a decision based upon moral principles. The apparent support that she has from her staff and the players would seem to undergird this notion as well.

Hypothesis 2: At least some articles seem to suggest that program funding is close to the heart of the matter. If that is the case, my own outsider hypothesis is that she was either not informed of the omnipotent control which the CSA appears to have over funds brought into “their” coffers or she was misinformed about how money coming in would be handled. Assuming that she tried to reason with the board about one or more of their decisions before she tendered her resignation, it appears that whatever she said fell on deaf and, to her and her supporters, intransigent ears. (The other option is that she knew what the money rules were when she signed on, tried to change them in midstream when it would have been to her program’s benefit, and quit when that attempt failed. I may well be proven wrong, but tend not to support this position myself as it reflects opportunism rather than principle, and would therefore be inconsistent with my first hypothesis)

Hypothesis 3: This is essentially an issue about power or about justice. (to my mind these two concepts cannot be completely separated but most issues of a similar nature are primarily one or the other) It appears to me that some who share their opinions in this forum see this primarily as an issue of power, others as a matter of justice. My own speculation in this case is that it is a more matter of justice – which again I believe is consistent with my first hypothesis.

To Vic and VPjr: What is your rationale behind a gag order? What exactly do you think that it would achieve and why do you think so?

To Duane: What is the purpose of the statistic which you cite? It may be possible for you to make a convincing case for whatever position you are espousing, but to do so convincingly it might be best to include comparative statistics over a much longer period of time – say – the relative budgets in years when the men’s team was attempting to qualify for the World Cup and the women’s program was not trying to gear up for a similar event.

Ed Dick

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Final point: Men's WC qualifying year (2008) the total expenditure on senior teams was $2.2m more than this past year.

And how much ticket revenue did they bring in from sell-out crowds against Jamaica and Honduras plus 9000 against Mexico and 6000 against St. Vincent? It's not like 2.2 million came out of thin air or came at the expense of the women.

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And how much ticket revenue did they bring in from sell-out crowds against Jamaica and Honduras plus 9000 against Mexico and 6000 against St. Vincent? It's not like 2.2 million came out of thin air or came at the expense of the women.

So the men brought some extra money in and were able to keep it. My understanding is that part of the issue is that the women have brought extra money in, but have had that shuffled off into general revenue...

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If true, I'm so disappointed in the women I'm sort of staggered. The Canadian Press isn't exactly known for the quality of its soccer reporting, of course...

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There was a photo of the team in China at the recent tournament, I may be wrong but I am pretty sure the president of the CSA in in the picture.

It would lead me to wonder if the Dear Doctor was the leader of the contingent in China .... if Carolina got too much of a view of what our leadership is like up close and personal.

It would not take her long to smoke out the Dear Doctor.

That could lead to a great deal of introspection no matter how much she cares for her players or they for her.

The CSA needs to step up and get a major sponsor to cover her salary till after the Olympic cycle, and the CSA needs to give the womens team equal pay for work of equal value or risk a Federal Human Rights Case. I suspect the forms have already been acquired and the systemic discrimination case is being drafted, above and beyond any sport resolution dispute mechanism.

Big silence from the Minister of Sport, and the Minister responsible for Women`s issues.

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The math is pretty simple. That's about 48,000 tickets (20,000 + 13,000 + 9000 + 6000). As long as the average ticket price was $45 the team covered the entire $2.2 million.

Keep in mind that the 2.2 is the total competition difference y/y. You are presuming that the women would be funded at par to this year. More likely the split would be 2.7 more.

Also you've disregarded venue overhead.

Were total revenues up in 2008? If not, what is in the revenues this year that offsets gate in 2008? (eg OTP)

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If true, I'm so disappointed in the women I'm sort of staggered. The Canadian Press isn't exactly known for the quality of its soccer reporting, of course...

Why disapointed.. ?

They deserve Equal Pay for Work of Equal Value. They have qualified for the World Cup they should be compensated.

FIFA will be earning lots and paying out to the CSA the CSA should be cutting a proper payment deal that has equality of pay for work of equal value with the men's team anything else is against the laws of Canada.

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Why disapointed.. ?

They deserve Equal Pay for Work of Equal Value. They have qualified for the World Cup they should be compensated.

You're drawing parity where it doesn't exist. The women's program gets funding equivalent to the men's program despite the hugely greater popularity of men's soccer, even in Canada where our women's program is one of the five best and our men's program is completely hapless.

Frankly, if the players (not the program, the players) are having their paycheques held back, then they should retain legal counsel as they seem to be doing and chase the CSA for their money. That's not what they're demanding, I notice: they're demanding that the CSA gives in to Morace. This is a hissy-fit, not a civil rights issue, and it's a hissy fit that could ruin our best-ever national team and cost us the 2015 World Cup.

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You're drawing parity where it doesn't exist. The women's program gets funding equivalent to the men's program despite the hugely greater popularity of men's soccer, even in Canada where our women's program is one of the five best and our men's program is completely hapless.

Frankly, if the players (not the program, the players) are having their paycheques held back, then they should retain legal counsel as they seem to be doing and chase the CSA for their money. That's not what they're demanding, I notice: they're demanding that the CSA gives in to Morace. This is a hissy-fit, not a civil rights issue, and it's a hissy fit that could ruin our best-ever national team and cost us the 2015 World Cup.

100% agree with this

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