Morace to quit after WWC?

[CoachRich]

Right timing as she went public just before the SGM so IMO she understands the internal issues being a recurring theme/problem of the CSA. That these recurring theme/problems can only be addressed by an immediate reform. CM not only let it be know but the WNT did too but sadly the CSA didn't let Kara speak to the members about their position on reform.

Right motive for telling the CSA BOD to get out of her program. How do we think she feels going on the road with a CSA BOD member. A BOD member who lacks experience in the game and admin who then interferes with her job, BS's the players on appearance fees, can't address the 1 year old socks with holes in them, can't address why the WNT are wearing men's uniforms, can't address why they are switching hotels and etc. Ask yourself what you would do if it was your youth team was getting screwed around like this by it's club BOD?

Give CM and them support? Why of course as it's about the big picture of bringing reform to the CSA. Sure I'd love to see them compete and do well at the WWC. But the continuing back room goings on of the CSA BOD is a game that they are playing with the lives and development of the CSA programs and the game in Canada. Enough is enough as this has to stop.

Success everything? Hell no when it comes at the expense of those who are suppose to benefit from it. I look at CM and the WNT making a unselfish move to better the system at the expense of their own success.

Right move. Totally as it's been 10 years of CSA BS with the WNT and their coaches. What WNT coach or for that matter any CSA coach has not had to jump through hoops with a inexperience show me the perks board? EP went through the same issues as CM didn't he?

Quickest way to end the CSA right now? The quickest way to kill the CSA BOD right now and bring reform to the CSA would be for the MNT to commit to a boycott as well. Make a statement on reform. What is the CSA BOD going to say to Sports Canada, soccer community and the Canadian public then. The CSA BOD will have only one thing they can do and that's to resign.

[empty_search]

From the bleachers:

Once again, I am throwing this out as food for thought. On the basis of what I believe that I know (which isn’t very much I admit), I think that what follows is as plausible as anything and more plausible than many other possibilities. It is based upon a number of presuppositions that others may or may not accept – which will to a large degree determine, I think, whether you buy the argument or not. That said, at the present time I believe that:

1. Morace resigned on the basis of principle rather than on the basis of pure self-interest. This conclusion is based upon the following:

a. In the only statement which I believe she has made, she said something to the effect that her vision of the future direction of the team did not match that of the CSA. There is certainly the chance that this is only posturing. However, it is reasonable to conclude that it actually might be true. The reason that I feel safe in saying this is that, in watching her team perform and in listening to outside observers like Jason DeVos and members of her team when they have been interviewed, she is a person with both vision and passion. People with these two qualities are often impatient with those of us whose natures are more pedestrian. We may question whether such people are practical, but we are likely making a mistake if we suggest that they are motivated by the crass objectives which might motivate ourselves.

b. Psychopaths have the ability to garner a tremendous amount of support from those around them – without actually having any respect or concern for those from whom they get that support. It is possible that Morace is psychopathic – and that is perhaps the only rational explanation for her seeming ability to gain the support of her entire team and staff while at the same time throwing them over for someone else. (if that is what you believe is going on) Without the psychopath argument, it makes absolutely no sense to me that the team would refuse to play games until her relationship with the CSA is fixed if they believed that the reason she is resigning is so that she can go and coach someone else. Having worked in an environment where a psychopath was part of the administrative team, I don’t actually buy that possibility. While psychopaths have tremendous appeal to some and can be extremely successful, they tend to convince those in authority over them of their merit, and divide those underneath them in a way which poisons the working environment. There is no indication that this has or is occurring with those directly associated with the women’s team.

2. It is not difficult to understand that someone might become, at the very least, frustrated with the CSA, and feel that it does not deserve the kind of respect that it might hope for or naturally expect. This conclusion is based upon the following:

a. The CSA does has not treated the women’s team with a great degree of concern in the past, including the recent past. The following quote: “The players were still negotiating with the CSA during the CONCACAF World Cup qualifiers to see how much money they would get following the tournament.” is from Ryan Wood’s article entitled Canadian Women’s National Team seeks answers in regards to Coach Morace and compensation at http://www.ourgamemagazine.com/ At the least, such a decision making process is irresponsible, but I would move it to the disrespectful category.

b. There are issues of trust wrt to the CSA. I may be going way out on a limb here, because there might be an explanation that I cannot see, but the whole notion that the CSA cannot provide any details on the compensation which men receive while playing for Canada because of a “confidentiality clause” is highly suspect. It is hard to see why anyone would want to keep this information secret. That the CSA either allowed it or potentially initiated it is not confidence inspiring.

c. Finally, the information provided by Duane does also not reflect well on the CSA. (I will take him at his word that he is reflecting the thoughts of a CSA insider or members of that organization when he says what he does.) In post #123 of this thread, DougAB analyzes an article posted by Duane on his February 6 blog entitled “Morace Demands”. http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?1142-Morace-s-demands Although there is much in the article open to critique, as Doug pointed out, the comment which I find most disturbing is “The consensus in the CSA is that Morace has found another job opportunity and is aware that her demands are unreasonable.” - and it doesn’t actually matter whether it is true or not. The statement publically announces that they believe that Morace has no integrity. Respecting her or not, either personally or collectively, is up to them, but publicizing it in any fashion shows a complete lack of discretion.

So, from the information which I can garner at this point, the CSA is willing to treat half of their most public representatives (the Women’s National Team) with a certain amount of distain, they are willing to be party to agreements which ensure a lack of transparency, and they are willing to make statements which are small minded. It makes sense that responsible individuals might have difficulty in dealing with them – perhaps even to the point of deciding to resign.

Ed D

[DougAB]

Thanks and will take that into consideration in the future. Just caught this in time before running out. It was more just noticing that they had three camps (two foreign) and a tournament in 2009, and would represent an extremely small footprint. That's many times what our naitonal U20 and U17 team have been reduced to. The funding definitely would come from other government sources and not the CSA directly but it reflects on the political correctness vs. real support point.

It is absolutely correct both the men’s and women’s national team programs need more money – this is a moot point, but why isn’t anybody questioning the piece of the pie that the CSA is choosing to serve up to our Canadian men’s and/or women’s senior teams when stacked up against the CSA’s overall budget?

The Board allocated 14.5% of the overall CSA Budget to the men’s and the women’s programs in 2009. In 2010 this number rose to 18%. Now compare this to what the US soccer Federation spent on its men’s and women’s senior teams in 2009 (43% of their overall US Soccer budget) and you can quickly see that the CSA seems to prioritize our senior men’s and women’s national team programs in a much different way than our US Soccer counterparts.

Maybe we need to question why the CSA has spent a massive percentage more on amateur Competitions, grassroots soccer and administration than it did or does own its own national team programming before we start argue who has a few more dollars more here or there in the men’s and the women’s national team budgets?

Who makes these decisions?

[DougAB]

As Carolina Morace is said to be in charge of the Women’s World Cup, Olympic and Women’s U20 Teams, I would hazard a guess that the 3.1 million is the budget for all 3 of her Programs in 2011.

If 2.5 million represents the Men’s senior program then you also need to factor in what the budgets are for the Men’s Olympic Program and the Men’s U20 Programs if you want to make comparable argument of men next to women.

1. Does Carolina need to staff all three of her programs out of the Women’s National Team budget or does she get access to other budgets such as the Youth Pooled HR Budget for the staffing of her U20 program (according to the 2010 CSA Board Budgets the staffing for Canada’s youth national teams gets paid out of this dedicated youth pooled HR budget)?

2. What is the case for the allocation of the men’s national, men’s olympic and the men’s U20 salaries? Which program budgets do they each come from?

3. Who is getting paid out of the overhead of the 2010 Office of the Technical Director (e.g. the Technical Directors salary)? What was budgeted in 2010 was quite considerable yet this role remained vacant for all of 2010. Does Men’s Head Coach, Stephen Hart (the former Technical Director) still paid out of this budget or is his salary included only in the Men’s National Team Budget?

4. Concerning the Men’s Olympic Team program - it has been active 3-4 times over in 2009 & 2010 yet I do not see any budgeting or forecasting for this program on any of the CSA documentation. Why is this the case?

Do CSA numbers as they stand alone really provide us with the whole story?

[Vic]

You're basing your entire hypothesis on a mathematical statistic based on the two organizations being similar when they're very different. The USSF has parceled off most of their amateur and grassroots to other organizations.

Morace, who knows. We'll probably never have even 10% of the relevant information. She had an impasse in either the terms or renegotiation of her contract and either imploded or saw the window of leverage and jumped into it. There's a healthy difference of opinion on that as well as the bigger picture impact and ethics of the timing, but that's to be expected given all our different backgrounds, views and personal style.

Coaches and players coming and going is common to every program in the world. Lawsuits and boycotts aren't and it's this action that's caused all the bigger picture problems.

Our men's compensation comes from the men's program budget.

Two questions:

1) In the Fall of '09 and '10 when the women's budget number was set and approved, did Carolina Morace ask for an allocation of it to go to the players under a similar methodology?

And I don't mean lobby for more after it was gone.

If she did, the person who denied it should answer to it.

If she didn't, why are the players' terrorizing our bid and global reputation and creating antagonism in the CSA that will linger over to all our women's programs in the future - over an issue between them and their coach?

2) Did the players ask Morace for an allocation of the women's program budget to go into their compensation?

If they did, why did we circumnavigate the globe and run the only full-time program in the world outside of Communist China instead of fulfilling their request?

And if they didn't, what are the ethics of damaging the CSA and our bid over it not occuring?

[CoachRich]

Let's deal with some facts -

The CWNT has been trying for 10 years to get appearance fees / long term compensation security. Over that time the CSA has been misleading and breaking promises all the time with the WNT. Hence with this and all the other CSA BS why would anyone want to give the CSA any respect or concern for what's important to them. The present situation is the CSA's home made problem, they had 10 years to deal with it and after 10 years they have no excuses to saying this is bad timing.

Lawsuits and boycotts are part of the NSO game. The USMNT and the USWNT have both gone that route at least 2 times each. Most of the links I have posted here about the US CBA links mention boycotts. CBA's are part of the WNT game not only in the US but in Europe too where the 28 Women's Leagues have to balance their player duties between club and country.

The 2015 WWC would be great for Canada but not at the expense of continued abusing, ignoring and treating our WNT and the WP as cheap labor for the benefit of the CSA glory and CSA BOD street cred. The WWC like the U20 MWC offers the Canadian soccer community very little financial benefit for our programs due to who is running it, the CSA. Who really benefits is the tourism industry and the CSA Perkie Pigs. If the CSA could run a WC like the US WC committee (no relation to the USSFed) and make a $50M or even a $5M profit to go into the CSA programs or into a foundation for the grassroots that would be great. Right now it's important for us to support the players as if it's not fixed this time why bother anymore. After 10 years enough is enough time for the CSA to grow up and take some responsibility for their actions and in-actions. The CSA BOD needs to resign now so the CSA can be reformed.

[hc1]

...why are the players' terrorizing our bid and global reputation...

Ultimately this is a labor issue. Its a fairly common thing for workers to threaten to withdraw their services as part of the bargaining process. It is often strategically done at a time to maximize the pressure on their employer to meet their demands. In today's world - are we really calling a threat to strike a terrorist action?

[terpfan68]

So has it esculated to the point that the team is now refusing to go to the world cup? I'd put that into 72 point font but that would be shouting.

We need to calm down and just see how this plays outs

[The Ref]

Refusing to play World Cup games is far more serious than refusing to play a friendly. How times have changed!

[Trillium]

So has it esculated to the point that the team is now refusing to go to the world cup? I'd put that into 72 point font but that would be shouting.

We need to calm down and just see how this plays outs

Gary Lunn has flown to Switzerland to join the Dear Doctor and Peter Montopioli... in the quest to get the 2015 WWC, he will have no excuse to say he has not talked to the CSA about the player strike and how it might affect the granting of the WWC in 2015 and the damage it is doing to the CSA and to sport in Canada.

The Minister of Sport has to talk about the failure of the CSA to ensure gender equity to ignore the issue is shocking when he has gone to Switzerland on the public purse .... to represent the Government of Canada in talking to Sepp Blatter and his friends in the family of soccer.

[ThruBall]

Let's deal with some facts -

After 10 years enough is enough time for the CSA to grow up and take some responsibility for their actions and in-actions. The CSA BOD needs to resign now so the CSA can be reformed.

The Ministry of Sport, G. Lunn Flying to Switcherland........

Taking a position on the outcome of this deliema is the only practical and responsible action that any interested supporter of Soccer in Canada can do at this time.

I am in full agreement with CoachRich. The CSA BOD must resign NOW......End of storey. Start the Governance Reform NOW>

I for one have been lobbying the both the Prime Ministers Office and Mr. Lunn's office for over 6 months now. I'm sure others on this forum have been doing the same.

Do we Canadians always have to take our lessons from our neighbours or other countries before we act? If Egypt can topple Mubarak in 20 days, why can't we Canadian's deal with the CSA in 40 years?

The storey is about reform.

All this other news is shrapnel.

Without immediate change at the CSA BOD NOW, more of the same will continue to follow!

Contact your MPP now and send a note to the Prime Minister and the Minister of Sport;

Prime Minister/Premier Ministre

pm@pm.cg.ca

Gary Lunn, P.C./M.P.

Corresponsdance_scm@pch.gc.ca

Rona Ambrose, P.C./MP

Ambrose.Ro@parl.gc.ca

[Bill Spiers]

The Toronto Star has chimed in on the issue of the Womens' National Team.

However, in typical lazy Toronto Star fashion, they fail to mention that the recently "uncovered CSA document" has been available on the web since 2009 and was re-posted here on Voyageurs with an important caveat - ignored by the Star - that the player fee increases to support the future budget figures were never approved by the membership.

[terpfan68]

Does the CSA have the support of fifa? In the past fifa has taken a very hard line with countries whose governments interfere with the internal polictics of soccer associations (see Chile). If the federal government does "something" will fifa retaliate?

[CoachRich]

IMO FIFA has no standing in the affairs of the CSA and it's relationship with Canadian law and sports policy. The ASA saga backups this up as the CSA tried to run the ASA SGM and found themselves relegated to the public bleachers with no voice nor vote.

In the US the Ted Stevens Act which gives the USOC the mandate of governing all US NSO, many NSO had to change their governance documents to conform to the TAS. If they didn't they would loose their NSO designation and government funding.

[CoachRich]

The Toronto Star has chimed in on the issue of the Womens' National Team.

However, in typical lazy Toronto Star fashion, they fail to mention that the recently "uncovered CSA document" has been available on the web since 2009 and was re-posted here on Voyageurs with an important caveat - ignored by the Star - that the player fee increases to support the future budget figures were never approved by the membership.

Important part is that the document still shows the intent of the CSA when it comes to players comp and program expenses.

I have made a request to the CSA for the 2010/2011 Budget Powerpoint document as it will help clear things up. Specifically, it will help us understand what was recorded in the P2E document and how the CSA is able to say the WNT gets 18% of the budget as we need to know if they are including OTP restricted funds or not.

[CoachRich]

From TSN -

Each week, The Reporters put their thumbs out to the good and the bad in the world of sports. This week they discuss the Pittsburgh Pirates arbitration woes, the Canadian Football Hall of Fame committee, the Canadian women's soccer team, and the work stoppage bulletins coming from the NFL owners and players.

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/dave_hodge/?id=353738

Michael Grange - The Globe and Mail: My thumb is up to Christine Sinclair and the rest of the Canadian women's soccer team for taking the direction of the program into their own hands, or feet, and threatening to boycott further international games until the Canadian Soccer Association can resolve their issues with head coach Carolina Morace and also provide a satisfactory explanation why the men - ranked 80th in the world - are paid for playing in Canada and the women -ranked ninth and rising, thanks to Morace, the players say - are not. There are two sides to every story and so far the CSA hasn't done a great job presenting theirs, but the World Cup only comes around every four years - once in a lifetime in sports - and the fact that these women are willing to put it all on the line for their coach and for each other tells their side of the story in big, bold letters.

[CoachRich]

CBC Current has IMO the best interview on the WNT 10 year saga on the long term compensation security. 25 minutes long

Carmelina Moscato and Jim Bunting

Jason De Vos

CSA - "We did request an interview with the Canadian Soccer Association. We were told no one would be available to speak with us."

Page - http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2011/02/10/the-canadian-womens-soccer-team/

Audio - http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1789037370

[terpfan68]

Fifa abhors courts or national governments controlling "their" sport.

check out this link

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/704466/ce/uk/&cc=5901?ver=us

I am sure there are other instances where International sports bodies have dictated to countries over international competitions. Look at the attempt by the women's ski jumping team to get this sport in the last winter olympics on a matter of human rights and the olympic organizers said no and the human rights commission was overruled.

[CoachRich]

Fifa abhors courts or national governments controlling "their" sport.

check out this link

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/704466/ce/uk/&cc=5901?ver=us

I am sure there are other instances where International sports bodies have dictated to countries over international competitions. Look at the attempt by the women's ski jumping team to get this sport in the last winter olympics on a matter of human rights and the olympic organizers said no and the human rights commission was overruled.

Sure FIFA does threaten but they are not the top of the feeding chain. They still report to CAS, are under Swiss NPO law and the IOC can get them to toe the line as they did with WADA

Can't compare the WNT with the IOC's women's ski jumpers -

1. IOC and not the VANOC had the only say in whether the women could or could not.

2. IOC had not included the women's ski jumping due to technical reasons that their were not enough countries to make the event viable.

3. Only way Canada could enforce anything on the IOC was to restrict funding which only leads to a lost for both sides with not event

4. IOC and their Olympics are hosted in countries under certain agreements on how the event is basically set up in host countries OC. Some items involve tax breaks, funding, special visas and etc. Personally, I don't agree with hosting international events where a democratic host country has to bend over for the event for the almighty tourist dollar.

FIFA has never been involved at anytime when the USMNT and USWNT threaten or boycotted for their CBA's.

[CoachRich]

How the Ted Stevens Act works in the USA when a WSO/WGB in this case ISAF tries to tell a US NSO to administer a US sport contrary to US law. The USOC tells the US NSO in question to conform to US law / TSA and USOC bylaws.

http://olympics.ussailing.org/AssetFactory.aspx?vid=2792

"The Hearing Panel finds that an international federations's rules do not take precedence over the Act and USOC's Bylaws, which govern the recognition and activities of the NGB's in the United States"

[terpfan68]

How did they manage to get Chile to back down if they don't have the power?

[CoachRich]

My understanding it was about the 6+5 rule. If that rule contradicted Chilean law there is not much FIFA can do. Case in point in the Bosman decision in EU which I believe is still in effect -

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/football-law/bosman-decision-football-transfers.htm

The Movement of Football Players between Clubs

Are there any laws which relate to transfers of players between football clubs?

Often various Government agencies both within the UK and abroad are loathe to interfere in the operation and running of the rules set down by sporting governing bodies. There are however, certain situations where these rules set down by the sporting governing bodies are said to infringe laws and the rights of the people within that sport. When that is the case the governing bodies will have to change their regulations in order to fully comply with the law.

The Bosman case in 1995 was one such situation where the European Court of Justice felt it necessary to require the European governing body of football, UEFA, to amend its rules concerning the transfers of players between clubs.

---------------

The Future of Football in the European Union – from a Legal Point of View

http://www.idrottsforum.org/articles/kronberg/kronberg101013.html

[Trillium]

Does the CSA have the support of fifa? In the past fifa has taken a very hard line with countries whose governments interfere with the internal polictics of soccer associations (see Chile). If the federal government does "something" will fifa retaliate?

Would you really support FIFA over the Canadian Government if it moved to tell the CSA that it must respect the Canadian Human Rights Act and ensure there is no systemic discrimination .... on the issue of equal pay for work of equal value for female soccer players ?

Remember Sepp has said the future of football is feminine ...its time the walk was walked not just the talk.

[Vic]

Yes hc1, if I was to edit one word in that post it's that one. "Intentionally damaging" would have been a much better phrase. Although if it was the men's program or a federal rep or someone like that hurting our odds I would have used an even stronger word than the first.

A couple of other more moderate articles out there, like the Wheeler one you commented on yesterday Neil. The one that should be read though is Jason de Vos. I find that throughout his commentary on all subjects in Canadian soccer, from reform to the men's program to the ladies, he has never failed to present an intelligent opinion.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/jasondevos/2011/02/canadian-womens-team-dollars-and-sense.html

I'm pretty much 100% in line with his view.

The only add I have to his comments is the timing. Had the women supported our bid (or even just said nothing) and then dealt with their issues a couple of weeks from now it would have been so many times easier to support them in return.

[terpfan68]

I am not trying to defend fifa or the CSA but fifa controls international competition not the Canadian government. Research Pyrrhic Victory.