CSL & Expansion

[PSG]

I see that the FC Quebec City and African Icons franchises have been put back to 2009. Is this a decision on the franchise or league's part? Also, does anyone know if there are anymore franchises expected to join soon (apologies, I know this has been done to death). It surprises me there's nothing in places such as Hamilton, Ottawa, Kingston etc. Plus more in Quebec to keep travel costs down.

[Rocket Robin]

see my press conference report and I mention some of your concerns.

[ray]

Hey Rocket Robin, thanks for the press conference report.

Regarding the International division, merely 4 teams looks very bad. I understand why the league felt it had to try a new direction, but it doesn't appear to be working. The Latino and Chinese are two major communities I would expect the CSL was targeting but nothing has come of it. In retrospect, the CSL should have worked with the immigrant communities to find the owners before creating the ethnic division. How well attended are the International division matches anyway?

[L.T.]

I would wager that even with only 4 teams, the international division will outdraw the national division this year...

[VPjr]

It appears CSL Expansion to Western Canada is back on the agenda.

see this article:

http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/news/sports/story.html?id=ce66677b-85b2-4122-9d8e-234d196755cb

[Guest Ed]

Well I don't see how removing teams from the AMSL and PCSL is going to do any good. Keep it east of the AB/SK border please.

[VPjr]

are the AMSL or PCSL professional leagues Ed? I thought they were Amateur. Plus, there is no talk of them moving into BC so the PCSL is safe.

We need PROFESSIONAL soccer in this country. The standard in the CSL is pretty good and getting better and at least the players are getting paid. I'm in favour of this move by the CSL. If Western Canada can create their own professional/semi-professional regional soccer league, then they should. If not, give the CSL a chance, if there are willing investors.

[sKriSh]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

It appears CSL Expansion to Western Canada is back on the agenda.

see this article:

http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/news/sports/story.html?id=ce66677b-85b2-4122-9d8e-234d196755cb

I don't really see two Manitoba teams being feasible. If they are looking at adding an additional 6 teams, I see a third Alberta franchise in either Lethbridge or Red Deer as being a better choice. A team in Kelowna may be another option, but I don't remember hearing any interest expressed by any interior BC cities so that may not work.

[Shootmaster_44]

I'm curious how this will work in Saskatoon. It appears that if all goes the way I hear it will Saskatoon will have a GBL baseball team, af2 football team and a IBL basketball team, all playing during the CSL season. Add to that the persistent rumor of an AHL team playing during the winter and the 2010 WJCs and you have one tapped out casual sportsfan and their wallets.

Granted the hardcore soccer fans will come out to the games, but are there enough of them in Saskatoon to make a go of it? I'm not convinced there are since the U of S Huskies' soccer teams are lucky to draw in three figures.

What the CSL will need to do is realize Saskatchewan does not have the ethnic communities of Southern Ontario or Calgary and as a result will have to convince the casual sports fan to come out. So far it seems Indoor Soccer can't do this very well as the Accelerators only had around 1,000 per game this year in the dead of winter.

[Richard]

Does any CSL team survive off its gate monies? They all need owners willing to cover their costs with perhaps a little being defrayed by philanthropic sponsors because the advertising return is practically nil.

[Shootmaster_44]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Does any CSL team survive off its gate monies? They all need owners willing to cover their costs with perhaps a little being defrayed by philanthropic sponsors because the advertising return is practically nil.

If that's the case then I guess a team here would work. The only problem is I'm not sure there is anybody with deep enough pockets in Saskatoon to do that.

Does the CSL pay its players? I guess if it didn't the only thing the club would have to do is pay for the field and the little money the officials get. It would essentially be run as an extension of one of the current soccer clubs in the city.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Does any CSL team survive off its gate monies? They all need owners willing to cover their costs with perhaps a little being defrayed by philanthropic sponsors because the advertising return is practically nil.

I don't know for sure but I doubt any CSL owner is making money off that business. Maybe they use them for the proverbial "tax loss". Who cares. Some of these teams are doing a very good job giving young Canadian players somewhere to play professional soccer and it can be a sprinboard to bigger things for some.

A few teams will draw about 400-500 fans per game (i.e. Croatia, White Eagles, etc...)

I imagine the average is about 250-300 per game. The league says it anticipates 100,000 tickets sold in 2008, which works out to an average of just over 350 per game.

This is not a league you will make profit from gate receipts, concessions, etc... However, smart clubs find ways to make ancillary revenues from summer camps, clinics, sponsorships, etc... to help get close to balancing the books.

Unlike USL or even PDL, the operating costs in CSL (especially for the Ontario teams) are relatively low because travel cost are almost non-existant and wages are quite low as well.

Regardless of whether this is a profitable venture or not, I think this is the way to go. Western Canadian elite youth soccer players need something local to aspire to, the way Western Canadian elite youth hockey players have something to aspire to. It doesn't have to be major league (MLS, USL) to have value. We need solid semi-professional soccer in this country. Every major soccer nation has a solid semi-professional foundation. We need our best young kids (15, 16, 17) playing in this league to learn what its like to play against men, to play to win something of consequence and then to graduate upwards, as is the normal flow in the soccer world.

I firmly believe this is a level of soccer that deserves the support of the Voyageurs community because if the CSL is doing its job well, the end result will be an improved Canadian player pool. For those who have fond memories of the old CSL, this new version might not suffice for you but that old CSL is not coming back until we show that we can support what we do have.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Shootmaster_44

If that's the case then I guess a team here would work. The only problem is I'm not sure there is anybody with deep enough pockets in Saskatoon to do that.

Does the CSL pay its players? I guess if it didn't the only thing the club would have to do is pay for the field and the little money the officials get. It would essentially be run as an extension of one of the current soccer clubs in the city.

"the only thing the club would have to do is pay for the field and the little money the officials get."

I think you are gravely underestimating the cost of participating in the CSL even if a separate division were formed covering the three prairie provinces and even if players were paid only nominal wages. Plus the franchise fee for the CSL is substantial and greater even than the fee charged by the USL for a PDL team.

The intercity Pacific Coast Soccer League for example has teams up and down the Pacific Northwest, from Kamloops in the BC interior through the Fraser Valley and Lower Mainland, Vancouver Island, Bellingham WA and Seattle WA and sometimes Oregon playing with a flat schedule. This involves substantial travel and overnight stays, a much much more expensive proposition than running a local amateur club where the players drive themselves to games, the club does not need to feed players and there are no overnighters.

[Ivan]

Someone also posted a rumour that a major sponsor is about to come on board because of the presence of TFC Academy.

[Winnipeg Fury]

I like what the CSL is trying to do in theory (with the exception of the ethnic clubs), but their franchise fees are way out of line.

It shouldn't be close to $100,000.

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

Though you could make the argument that if you, as an owner, can't put up 100-125 grand for a franchise fee how a) commited are you to running a club? and able will you be to deal financially with the challenges that come with running a new sports organisation?

I actually think a CHL type model could work really well and is the most practical thing to do given the economics and geography involved. But the best way for this to work is to build on existing infrastructure.

Here in Nova Scotia for example I believe this is the 26th season for the NS league (which now has clubs in NB and PEI too). Why (not that anyone is saying this...yet) come to NS and start new clubs when there are clubs that exist here already? Which curiously ties back into Winnipeg Fury's other point about the ethnic clubs. One theory about the demise of the original CSL was that it turned its nose up to the already existing (and indeed in some cases for several decades) ethnic clubs in the NSL (was that its name in 1987...I don't know) and their infrastructure and fan base and so on. Most of these clubs, so much as I can tell, are not ethnically exclusive in terms of either players or supporters and if it brings a bit more interest and involves people I don't really see the harm. It's not like, again to the best of my knowledge, these ethnic rivalries have ever led to actual violence or anything. Anway the original CSL and CSA barged right in and imposed their thing on people and it blew up in their faces. There's a lesson to be learned there. If the current CSL goes about this slowly and organically there is no reason why they couldn't become the genuine second tier of Canadian soccer (after MLS assuming Mtl and Van go up).

[youllneverwalkalone]

OT, but the last post here reminded me how The Southside chant of "32 years, f-uck all!" got me thinking about how this anti-ethnic club thing goes back to Metro-Croatia and the NASL. It's before my time, so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but my understanding is that the league stepped in to facilitate the change in ownership to the Blizzard, because they were uncomfortable with the ethnic angle.

Now, I wouldn't expect Toronto Croatia to produce any decent players for Canada (as they would play for Croatia) but it's interesting that they've had financial backing in the past and, who knows, maybe in the future could become a more important part of Canadian club soccer. If the CSL champion (along with the PCSL champ to be fair), were given a berth in the Voyageurs Cup, it might be a way to encourage better investment in the CSL and have the existing clubs expand their budgets.

It was only 4 matches, but the V's Cup made me feel like we had a Canadian League. Expanding the competition to 8 matches, would really add to that flavour. A Toronto FC derby partner would be a smashiong success I predict. I'd also love to see a great amateur club like Victoria United get a chance to play with the big boys.

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

I don't know if it was mentioned here or on the Big Soccer forum but there was talk of having the CSL champion (in an expanded national CSL) becoming the 4th side in the VC qualifying for CCL. I think this is a great idea and again makes alligning the CSL and eastern and western leagues (as in junior hockey) more meaningful as they'd truly have something to play for.

If Van and Mtl join MLS there won't be any more USL1 Canadian clubs and I think efforts would be better spent on an expanded and national CSL as our second tier rather than the odd USL club in 1 or 2. If you were to have Pacific, Western, Eastern and Atlantic leagues that only played each other in a national championship each year I think it could work...on that level.

As for Toronto Croatia I went to Wikipedia and looked up the 4 current "international" sides in the CSL. Italia Shooters and Portugal FC are overwhelmingly Canadian and in both cases, judging by the players surnames, not exclusively Italian-Canadian or Portuguese-Canadian. The two Balkan sides, Serbia White Eagles and Toronto Croatia do seem to be more homogeneous (but not entirely) and although most of their players appear to be from Serbia or Croatia respectively there are exceptions.

However, if the two have been around since 1968 and 1956 is it really wise to ignore what they've done? And is any of this really that different from Chivas USA or the theorised Boca USA side? In fact I'd say it's probably better because these clubs (in Toronto) are grass roots organisations founded by people in the community as opposed to wealthy business interests abroad (Mexico and Argentina respectively) looking to push their brand in North America and cash in.

It has long been a standing complaint/head-scratcher that so called "immigrant" communities in this country do not embrace "Canadian" soccer. Is it any wonder if Toronto Croatia et al are marganilised? I think it's far smarter to build on what we already have than trying to re-invent the wheel and introduce something new like the "Toronto Towers" or..................(insert equally stupid name here).

[Richard]

"I actually think a CHL type model could work really well and is the most practical thing to do given the economics and geography involved."

That's the theme the CSL commissioner has been preaching for several years now (without too much success frankly) and it could well be made to work but he really needs to rethink the economics of his pet model if he wants to expand in any realistic, enduring fashion. Mr. Commish you need to walk before you run and your franchise costs are out of all proportion to the value the CSL currently provides. There is currently no motivation whatsoever for PCSL clubs for example to switch allegiance to the CSL, and I suspect, AMSL clubs too. Return on investment is just not there.

[VPjr]

^ Richard, tier 2 Canadian professional soccer can't be looked at from an ROI perspective at this time...Gate, concession sponsorship and merchandise revenues will never be enough to cover all costs. To be a CSL owner right now, you have to be a rich guy who invests in the league because they love the sport, they want to do something good for the local soccer community (while stroking their own ego a bit) and they think they can lose only small amounts of money or maybe come close to breaking even.

The only way to make money in these lower leagues is to develop players and sell them, like is done everywhere else in the world. There is a push among certain current CSL clubs to seek out their profits through player development. That's the beauty of this league. The teams own the players rights and can sell them. it's not happened yet (in any significant way) but the time will be coming in the next 5 years, mark my words.

I suspect that it won't be too hard to find 6 rich guys willing to invest. Last I checked, there is ALOT of money in Alberta these days and Saskatchewan is doing well economically. I would hope that there are a couple of groups in Manitoba that would have some interest as well, although Manitoba Soccer is not thriving (actually shrinking) and the local community soccer situation is a bit of a mess from everything I've heard.

Personally, I'd like to see 4-5 teams in Alberta and 2-3 teams in Saskatchewan. If Manitoba joins or doesn't join, it's not the end of the world but I've got to believe that there is a group in Winnipeg and another in Brandon that would give it a shot.

[youllneverwalkalone]

The flaw that I see with this Western expansion is that the clubs I know of, say in Alberta, are amateur clubs -in the sense that Erin Mills is an amateur club (not saying they're not good!) Most of the clubs who have survived at some level in the CSL have existed as semi-professional clubs before the league itself. I hate to agree with Richard and Dino in the same sentence, but it seems to me those clubs should focus on improving their youth systems, training facilities and, maybe even building proper grounds so they can work on attendance. Why bring in a bunch of new clubs a couple thousands kilometers away after Durham, Brampton, Ottawa, Hamilton have all faltered?

[Richard]

VPjr the initial franchise fee is a capital investment upon which most investors would expect a return. This is quite different from unavoidable annual operating costs. The CSL demands what I consider to be an exhorbitant franchise fee up front for any club to join the CSL and it is there that I am challenging the return on investment. I do not believe the CSL gives its clubs much more in return for the fees it charges than the PCSL gives its clubs. Where is the motivation to switch allegiance from the PCSL to the CSL? The CSL must come up with a much better proposition than it can currently offer or charge more realistic and representative fees. You are quite right that few if any 2nd tier clubs in Canada can hope to generate enough revenue to cover their operating costs without a philanthropic sponsor(s)

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

To clarify (especially after thinking about it) I think leagues that already exist could/should continue to exist. AMSL, PCSL, NSSL etc. Now whether the current CSL would still be keen on that (especially if it would then mean their losing the control/potential money they seem to be talking about) I don't know but I think that's the way to go. To try to start up new clubs where clubs already exist just seems stupid to me. And doesn't that Western Indoor outfit want to have an outdoor league in the future?

It would be far simpler (not that, that means that's what will actually happen) for the CSA, possibly in co-operation with the CSL, to organise a loose CHL structure NOW. At least that's how it seems to me. Have the existing leagues share branding/promotion/infrastructure etc. and have them allign their seasons and so on and then have the champions of each play one another in a Memorial Cup type event. It's not that complicated but of course doesn't involve the CSL collecting a franchise fee. And I don't know a lot about Jnr hockey but is the CHL much of an organisation? I mean don't the WHL, OHL and QMJHL do most of the actual work and the "CHL" acts as a kind regulatory authority probably with a small staff/budget etc.?

[Richard]

I find it intriguing that the CSL does not appear to warrant very much if any attention or recognition from the CSA. There must have been a conscious decision by those involved not to include the CSL in any way in the Canadian CONCACAF Championship. They represent themselves as a professional league so why not? Anybody closer to the soccer politics action in central Canada care to enlighten the rest of us?

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Most Scottish Man in Cdn.

To clarify (especially after thinking about it) I think leagues that already exist could/should continue to exist. AMSL, PCSL, NSSL etc. Now whether the current CSL would still be keen on that (especially if it would then mean their losing the control/potential money they seem to be talking about) I don't know but I think that's the way to go. To try to start up new clubs where clubs already exist just seems stupid to me. And doesn't that Western Indoor outfit want to have an outdoor league in the future?

It would be far simpler (not that, that means that's what will actually happen) for the CSA, possibly in co-operation with the CSL, to organise a loose CHL structure NOW. At least that's how it seems to me. Have the existing leagues share branding/promotion/infrastructure etc. and have them allign their seasons and so on and then have the champions of each play one another in a Memorial Cup type event. It's not that complicated but of course doesn't involve the CSL collecting a franchise fee. And I don't know a lot about Jnr hockey but is the CHL much of an organisation? I mean don't the WHL, OHL and QMJHL do most of the actual work and the "CHL" acts as a kind regulatory authority probably with a small staff/budget etc.?

The CSL is a commercial venture, if there is no or very little money in it for them they are unlikely to be interested really. The CHL as I understand it operates more like a co-op with the WHL, OHL, QMJL as its members. That's not quite what I suspect the CSL commish has in mind.