CSL & Expansion

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I find it intriguing that the CSL does not appear to warrant very much if any attention or recognition from the CSA. There must have been a conscious decision by those involved not to include the CSL in any way in the Canadian CONCACAF Championship. They represent themselves as a professional league so why not? Anybody closer to the soccer politics action in central Canada care to enlighten the rest of us?

I don't want to come across as argumentative but the CSL does not "represent themselves as a professional league". It is a professional league (or semi-professional at worst, since TFC Academy is a pure Amateur team in a professional league). Most players are paid to play. That makes it professional to me, regardless of the fact that the money the players receive is not substantial. As far as I'm concerned, we need more professional clubs like those in the CSL. Professionalism in Canadian soccer is needed urgently, even as far down as at the community club level. I have nothing but respect for the various amateur leagues in Western and Eastern Canada and clearly the standard of play (especially in the PCSL) is pretty decent but I'd prefer to see them go professional / semi-professional.

Furthermore, I wouldn't judge the merits of the CSL based on how much ( or how little ) recognition it gets from the CSA. The CSA has not exactly been a beacon of leadership for the better part of 25 years. In fact, when it comes to promoting and developing the professional side of soccer in Canada, the CSA has been an abject failure. Hopefully, the new people in charge at the CSA will turn their attention to the state of professional soccer once they sort out all the other messes that they must deal with. You can be sure it's at the top of my agenda when I communicate with them.

As I see it and as its been explained to me, there have been numerous roadblocks and obstacles placed in front of the CSL, especially by the OSA, but apparently there is a greater spirit of co-operation between the CSL and the OSA these days. I truly believe the future of the CSL is bright. I'm a season ticket holder for 2 teams (Brampton and North York) and I'm a big fan of what I see. I think the CSL management team has a lot of work yet to do but I believe they have a vision of where they want to go and I hope they get there because it won't be anything but good for Canadian soccer.

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

I agree with Richard that the current CSL is a commercial venture and probably won't be keen on some kind of altruistic (i.e. non-paying) co-op type set-up with several leagues. I think though that's the best way forward. Going into a territory with long established clubs and leagues is counter-productive and possibly very destructive. It's better to build on what exists and the CSA should be leading the way on this to form some kind of CHL set-up.

As for the CCL I get the feeling it was pulled together very quickly so I don't know that the set up this year is necessarily the way it will always be, however, if Van and Mtl move up to MLS I think it'll probably just be whoever has the most points of the three.

[Richard]

VPjr I am also not setting out to be argumentative either but some players in 'amateur' British Columbia based leagues are paid to play by their teams - probably the same or more than some CSL players are paid - does that make the league 'professional'? I don't think so. You don't become professional just by calling yourself professional or by paying some of your players a token amount of money to play. I would far rather see the CSL play down the professional angle and boost the quality of play, developmental and entertainment aspect of their operation.

I am not judging the merits of the CSL based on how much (or how little) recognition it gets from the CSA, my question about apparent lack of recognition and attention was quite genuine and I am still waiting for an honest answer from someone. Perhaps the CSA like many other folks sees the CSL as the responsibility of the provincial body rather than the national body as it is really an Ontario league with one Quebec team in it.

I most certainly do not wish the CSL ill, far from it. I am sure they produce a product equal to or better than equivalent leagues in other parts of the country. I hope the CSL manages to thrive despite its rather stuttering track record. You are absolutely right in that the league management team has a lot of work to do and in my opinion needs to adjust their thinking somewhat if they expect to become what they say they wish to become. They are still stuck as a regional, southern Ontario league and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Shootmaster_44]

quote:"the only thing the club would have to do is pay for the field and the little money the officials get."

I think you are gravely underestimating the cost of participating in the CSL even if a separate division were formed covering the three prairie provinces and even if players were paid only nominal wages. Plus the franchise fee for the CSL is substantial and greater even than the fee charged by the USL for a PDL team.

The intercity Pacific Coast Soccer League for example has teams up and down the Pacific Northwest, from Kamloops in the BC interior through the Fraser Valley and Lower Mainland, Vancouver Island, Bellingham WA and Seattle WA and sometimes Oregon playing with a flat schedule. This involves substantial travel and overnight stays, a much much more expensive proposition than running a local amateur club where the players drive themselves to games, the club does not need to feed players and there are no overnighters.

What I meant is the club itself would only have to pay those costs. It would be like youth soccer where the players would have to fund the rest themselves. If the players paid to play then it might work, I just don't see anyone with enough passion for soccer and enough money to fund a club in Saskatoon. Granted I am not closely involved with the local soccer scene, but it would stand to reason when the CMISL cannot find local ownership for the Accelerators.

[Richard]

^ Why would you expect players to pay to play in what purports to be a professional league???

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

are the AMSL or PCSL professional leagues Ed? I thought they were Amateur. Plus, there is no talk of them moving into BC so the PCSL is safe.

We need PROFESSIONAL soccer in this country. The standard in the CSL is pretty good and getting better and at least the players are getting paid. I'm in favour of this move by the CSL. If Western Canada can create their own professional/semi-professional regional soccer league, then they should. If not, give the CSL a chance, if there are willing investors.

It would take a lots of beers to convince me that the CPSL is 'professional'. The Alberta reps from the AMSL are consistently excellent in the senior club championships each and every year. I don't see any great improvement by adding one or two teams (supposedly) at a higher level than AMSL (and at those expansion fees?).

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

If it's so important for there to be "professional" soccer across the country surely it's better for existing, and in many cases long established, amateur and semi-professional clubs and leagues to move up a level to "professionalism" than to go into their territories with brand new clubs and leagues? Right? The distinction some are making on here between "professional" and "amateur" forms a fine line. In the mind of the public and indeed media would there be that much of a difference between say the AMSL and an expanding CSL? I doubt it. So then you've got basically two organisations that are more-or-less the same competing for the same players, supporters, media coverage etc. How does that help anybody?

[Most Scottish Man in Cdn.]

If it's so important for there to be "professional" soccer across the country surely it's better for existing, and in many cases long established, amateur and semi-professional clubs and leagues to move up a level to "professionalism" than to go into their territories with brand new clubs and leagues? Right? The distinction some are making on here between "professional" and "amateur" forms a fine line. In the mind of the public and indeed media would there be that much of a difference between say the AMSL and an expanding CSL? I doubt it. So then you've got basically two organisations that are more-or-less the same competing for the same players, supporters, media coverage etc. How does that help anybody?

[Obinna]

I agree with that, regional leagues like the AMSL and NSSL should move towards professionalism. Align existing youth clubs with senior clubs to create a systematic feeder system. Revenue should be sought from player transfers and sponsers. I don´t understand why the former is not done, is it because the quality of players is not good enough for professional clubs to justify paying transfer fee´s?

The NSSL already has a groundwork that includes all 3 maritime provinces, and with a little more "professionalism", they can one day form an eastern conference of the CPSL. The same can happen in the west, with the AMSL, MMSL, and the senior clubs in Sask.

The question should be - Why aren´t these regional leagues moving towards professionalism? and if they are indeed pursuing this, the disscussion should be centered around what can be done to speed up the process?

[Richard]

^ Why must they be professional? Third tier clubs/leagues in Canada have no hope of paying livable wages to fulltime players. The CSL in Ontario can't even do it and they've been trying long enough. So, the result is teams who pay nominal wages to players, all of whom are part timers who need other jobs to survive. Many clubs in the top level officially amateur leagues here in BC are paying some of their players in one way or another, probably as much if not more than many players in the CSL are paid. We need to lay off trying to pretend we can sustain third tier professional regional leagues and focus on quality of play, standards, management and inter-league play in our existing high level amateur leagues. The CSL often refers to the CHL as a model they wish to emulate. What kind of salaries if any are those highschool hockey players paid to play?

[VPjr]

Richard, you ask why it must be professional? I can only speak for the GTA but, like it or not, the sports media and the typical sports fan here totally devalues amateur sport, especially at the senior level. Junior Hockey doesn't draw well in the GTA, despite owners with deep pockets and lots of marketing and gets minimal media attention considering how important hockey is. Even college/university sports barely gets a mention (other than football). There is a perception among many that if you aren't being paid to play, the standard can't high. The CSL is not a high profile league but at least it gets space in the sports pages (The Lynx get less recognition than the CSL). The only other "tier 2" league in Southern Ontario that gets decent media coverage is Intercounty Baseball, which is a very similar type of league to the CSL in the sense that its teams pay the majority of their players on a "per game played" basis.

Ed, as for your comments, I'd be curious to know when was the last time you watched a CSL game? I personally judge the professionalism of a league by the standard of play, not the amount one gets paid to play in that league. I've only ever seen one USL2 match live (over 2 years ago in Harrisburg, PA) but what I saw was nothing to write home about. It was a sloppy, uneven match played by players of below average quality. It was not much better than a US college game and that's not a good thing in my mind because I have little use for US college soccer. Of course, it was only 1 game (not a big frame of reference) but if people will bestow "professional" status on USL2 without hesitation, then I'd argue that the CSL deserves similar consideration. The quality of play in the CSL is not consistently of high quality but the top 8 CSL teams are pretty good squads and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they could hold their own vs. better funded USL2 opponents. People might scoff but that's my opinion.

Its unfortunate that the pay available to CSL players is not higher but it is improving. I really believe that the management team at the CSL are on the right track. The league is far more professionally run now than in previous years. New revenue streams are being created. Sponsors are coming on board.

That being said, there are ALOT of improvements still needed and I would strongly urge the league to not get even remotely complacent. I truly believe they ought to give serious consideration to altering its roster rules so that the league is eseentially a professional/development league (similar to the lowest leagues in Italy) to ensure that young players are guaranteed roster spots and playing time (The boys of the TFC Academy are definitely alot better off in the CSL than they are playing youth soccer with their community clubs, in my opinion). This type of set up might help pull more 16-18 year old players out of youth soccer and playing with the men, where they should be. Furthermore, CSL teams must be prepared to have their own youth academy programs (either in partnership with a local youth club or independant of any affiliation). Refereeing needs to improve. Community level marketing by the clubs must improve to get better crowds out to the games. I'd like to see a longer season too (7 months minimum rather than just less than 6 months as is the case now), even if it means teams must play in cold weather early in the season and play until later in October (there are plenty of indoor facilities available now for CSL teams to run their pre-season training indoors if necessary).

[KAS]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

. . . its teams pay the majority of their players on a "per game played" basis.

Its unfortunate that the pay available to CSL players is not higher but it is improving.

Just wondering, how much do CSL players get paid? I think I read somewhere that it was $75-100/game, but I don't know where I read that.

Are there players on regular full-time contracts? Is there a salary cap (maybe a soft one tied to revenues?), or is it wide open?

[Eric]

quote:Originally posted by KAS

Just wondering, how much do CSL players get paid? I think I read somewhere that it was $75-100/game, but I don't know where I read that.

Are there players on regular full-time contracts? Is there a salary cap (maybe a soft one tied to revenues?), or is it wide open?

I've talked to many players in the CSL this year (just because I go watch alot of games) and I ask them many times how much they make per month or game or how they get paid. The range of payment is between $50 per game to young players and up to $400 per game for fully professional players. For some of you it might be surprising that the CSL has many fully pros in their teams, I mean pro players that come to Canada to play for a CSL team for a season or two. You might ask WHY? well there's a range of reasons, one of them is the language, they want to learn english and expand their possibilities of playing around the world. The other one I hear often (because I ask alot of questions) is that since the league has been expose to the FIFA web site, pro players with out a team see the CSL as an opportunity to be in a new market full of real football people from around the world with alot of connections and contacts who can help them out to make the jump back to Europe, South America or Asia.

Serbia White Eagles, Toronto Croatia, Trois Rivieres, North York Astros and Portugal FC are the clubs that import most of the pro players that play in the league. They come from Serbia, Croatia, Brazil, Argentina, France, Japan and many pros from Caribbean countries.

An other important fact about the level of the league is the number of professional coaches the league has this year, coaches with experience around the world, not just in Ontario or BC but real experience coaching in Europe and other continents. I don't think any other league in Canada can match that. I would go as far as to say that, there are more coaches with international experience coaching in the CSL than in the MLS and the USL.

IMO these coaches are the reason why with 11 games played for most teams so far in the league, the gap in between the first and the second last team is only 14 points, which I'm sure it will shorten up in the weeks coming up. I'm not including in my statement the last place team in the league (London City) because they are a 100% amateur team trying to compete with the pros and it shows.

The league in my view is definitely moving forward with the expansion they're planning but IMO they have to get people with proven experience and knowledge internationally about soccer in their management, because the way they are running the league (schedule, website and game protocols) looks more like a hockey league than a soccer league and that is a major blunder that has to be address for next season.

[Richard]

How can a player support himself and a family on $400 per game? Doesn't even pay two week's rent on a one bedroom apartment in Vancouver. That player must be making some money with a second job and thus cannot be regarded as a fulltime professional.

Not surprising the league is run like a hockey league, the commish looks to the CHL as his model

Good news that the general consensus is that the CSL is moving forward. We need stronger regional leagues.

[Eric]

There are other players that make a salary in the CSL but so far I haven't been able to find out how much it is. Many of these players play for Serbia and T Croatia, including the head coaches who came from those respective countries exclusively to coach those two teams.

Also Vancouver is not Toronto, life here is more down to hearth, you can live with $1400 plus work for soccer camps during the day (just like some Italia Shooter players) and make $2500 or $3000 per month in the summer. I know Richard that's not enough to live in a RICH and "high standard city" like Vancouver but here in third world Toronto you can still make a living.

I told you once Richard, the fact that the CSL is in the FIFA website as the NATIONAL LEAGUE, is eating you alive but don't worry, when the CSL gets there (BC I mean) you'll be part of it too and you won't be so grumpy about it.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by KAS

Just wondering, how much do CSL players get paid? I think I read somewhere that it was $75-100/game, but I don't know where I read that.

Are there players on regular full-time contracts? Is there a salary cap (maybe a soft one tied to revenues?), or is it wide open?

From what I'm told, some teams play $100.00 per game plus travel expenses to get to practice.

Other teams pay more (double and, in a small number of cases, up to triple that amount). Plus, players who aren't working during the day can make extra money working summer camps that the teams run.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

How can a player support himself and a family on $400 per game? Doesn't even pay two week's rent on a one bedroom apartment in Vancouver. That player must be making some money with a second job and thus cannot be regarded as a fulltime professional.

Not surprising the league is run like a hockey league, the commish looks to the CHL as his model

Good news that the general consensus is that the CSL is moving forward. We need stronger regional leagues.

No one is claiming that any players are able to support themselves 100% by playing in the CSL. For now, all CSL players will need a job to make ends meet but at least it doesn't have to be a Full Time job for many of them. As Eric mentioned in his excellent post, there are players coming to the CSL from all over the world, knowing in advance how little they will be paid but coming anyway because they want to be in Canada for a variety of reasons. These players are full time professionals back in their home country (they might not be well paid professionals back home but full time nonetheless). These players are improving the standard in the league and it will be good for the young Canadians in the league to play alongside some players with some good experience. The coach of the Astros told me the other day that he is inundated with emails and phone calls from footballers from all over who want to play for his team. I'm sure other teams have the same experience.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

There are other players that make a salary in the CSL but so far I haven't been able to find out how much it is. Many of these players play for Serbia and T Croatia, including the head coaches who came from those respective countries exclusively to coach those two teams.

Also Vancouver is not Toronto, life here is more down to hearth, you can live with $1400 plus work for soccer camps during the day (just like some Italia Shooter players) and make $2500 or $3000 per month in the summer. I know Richard that's not enough to live in a RICH and "high standard city" like Vancouver but here in third world Toronto you can still make a living.

I told you once Richard, the fact that the CSL is in the FIFA website as the NATIONAL LEAGUE, is eating you alive but don't worry, when the CSL gets there (BC I mean) you'll be part of it too and you won't be so grumpy about it.

Doesn't eat me up at all but I do object to presumptuous misrepresentation. The CSL is not Canada's national professional league it is an Ontario regional league. We don't have a national professional league unless we regard the new Champions League as one, so they should not be representing themselves as such, that's all. The CSA was not even aware that FIFA was showing the CSL as Canada's national league so clearly the CSA has not recognised it as such either.

Also, nobody has responded to my post about players in officially amateur leagues in BC being paid to play, some as much as you are suggesting the CSL pays its players, does that make those leagues professional, I think not even if the standard of play is equivalent to the CSL or better.

[VPjr]

Hey Eric...are you going to the Shooters v Astros on Friday night....if so, we should meet up

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Doesn't eat me up at all but I do object to presumptuous misrepresentation. The CSL is not Canada's national professional league it is an Ontario regional league. We don't have a national professional league unless we regard the new Champions League as one, so they should not be representing themselves as such, that's all. The CSA was not even aware that FIFA was showing the CSL as Canada's national league so clearly the CSA has not recognised it as such either.

I actually applaud the CSL for having the gumption to get themselves recognized by FIFA. Its been very good for business and its a strong marketing angle that they should (and do) use to their advantage to build the brand.

Also, Who cares if the CSA was unaware...they are unaware of a lot of things.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Also, nobody has responded to my post about players in officially amateur leagues in BC being paid to play, some as much as you are suggesting the CSL pays its players, does that make those leagues professional, I think not even if the standard of play is equivalent to the CSL or better.

If the entire team is paid, even a marginal amount, I'd consider that team to be a semi-professional team, just like I consider the CSL teams to be semi-professional.

Nothing wrong with semi-professional soccer. Gerba was essentially playing at the semi-pro level last year in Germany. Lots of our kids playing in the lowest divisions in England, Italy, Germany, Holland, Denmark, etc... are essentially playing semi-pro (they make more money but they are far from making "big" money).

CSL is what it is...Tier 3 Semi Professional soccer. Possibly on par with USL2, definitely a big notch below USL1 and a bigger notch below MLS. I'll take it. If PCSL evolved into a similar semi-pro standard, I'd be happy to see it recongnized as Canada's Western Region professional league and the CSL is the Eastern / Central Region professional league. No different than the low level regional leagues in Europe.

In time, hopefully these leagues will grow wisely and maybe challenge USL for Tier 2 status based on quality of play. I think these leagues must always remain regional leagues because I believe our geography in Canada makes it highly unlikely we'll have a coast-to-coast league anytime soon.

[Richard]

"I think these leagues must always remain regional leagues because I believe our geography in Canada makes it highly unlikely we'll have a coast-to-coast league anytime soon."

There I have to agree with you. Also, it is not my intention to put down the CSL, far from it, its a great little league for what it is. But I don't like the fact that it misrepresents itself and furthermore apparently bypassed the national body to get itself listed on the FIFA website which is unethical in my view no matter what your opinion of the CSA is. Clearly you don't agree (and that's your right) you seem quite unconcerned that the league pretends it is something it is so obviously not.

[sajc]

The CSL expanding to Brandon Manitoba???

http://www.wheatcityjournal.ca/news_item.aspx?news_id=2993

[KAS]

Thank-you Eric and VPjr.

Do either of you know if the CSL has any kind of salary cap? If somebody wanted to play big-fish/small-pond and pay several players $1000/game, would that be permitted?

I assume that the clubs own the players and not the league, but are the contracts of a permanent enough nature that they really hold the players rights and can command a fee in the transfer market?

[Luis_Rancagua]

We need more teams in the province of Quebec. More teams need to be propped up in metropolis such as Hall, the Greater Montreal, Quebec City and it surroundings, etc...

As per Western expansion, what about BC??? It would be nice if the CSL could start off a Western conference regional league system between BC, Alberta Saskatchewan and Manitoba...With the winner meeting the Eastern champ in a home and away championship series during the month of October. I'm afraid this plan is doom for failure if BC is excluded from this agenda. BC could easily add 5-6 teams to this league, and make it into a solid 12 team regional league. Any comments, suggestions or feedbacks. What about you Bill Speers (former CPSL Commissioner)???