Dale Mitchell Support Thread

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by rocco

mr. michels, morgan quarry, montagliani, and others from bc are part of a team who did not want simoes.. i am sure if simoes was going to come.. this people would have been fire! they knew that.

I hardly think Simoes would have the power to fire the communications director..... They were hiring him to Coach a team, not take over the CSA.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I never thought that Mitchell would be a bad choice. I saw very little from his work as an under 20 coach to give me any concerns about his ability and the direction that he would take the senior side. The only quibble that I might have is that I see his teams ( eg>: U20) playing a game that is too linear for my liking. The linear and game of high pace that I tend to associate Mitchell with is not that dissimilar to what we saw from some of his predecessors.

He knows the program and he wont make outrageously rediculous demands on the program like Simoes did in demanding to bring his own strenght and conditioning coach as well as a goalkeeping coach. WTF do Canadians need to learn from brazilians in the area of strenght and conditioning. Similarly, from what I have seen in int'l soccer, Brazilian keepers are hardly torch bearers or pillars of execllence when it comes to this aspect of the game. Yes, I know, technical skills and individual skills are another story.

Someone mentioned some concerns about poor players selections. This is total nonsence. I'd be curious to know on what valid premise or know how does anyone on this board possess to critique the player selection of U20 team other going by what is written in a players bio. We have all read the player bios and I completely I fail to see what there is to question about the player that he has chosen in. Any players who plays at a level of any note has been called by Mitchell. Unless, of course they failed to show the right level of committment to the program.

Another plus for Mitchell is the current state of the Mens National Team. At this time, I fail to see how a coach like Simoes could have made a huge difference going into 2010 given the quality and depth of the talent pool. Of course, I hope that I am wrong and we know that things can change very quickly. But, the greatest coaches in any sport need the horses. One could objectively conclude that 2014 is a more realistic target. With that in mind, what good is Simoes? and, wouldn't a caretaker type coach be the best option? I cant think of anyone else who fits teh caretaker discription better than Dale Mitchell.

A huge heapload of hindsight I'd say. You make him sound like Hiddink or someone. Dale is only average, and has never shown himself to be more than that. Our team terribly underperformed in Holland, we were pretty damn awful. This time round we will have home court so it is going to harder to judge, as in all probability we will get further than our true level on that basis, and Dale will look great.

Then he'll go the senior men, where we have key players who seemed to not prefer him over Simoes, and he won't have their respect, he won't have half the knowledge they have from their coaches on their pro teams, and he will not get good performances out of them as he will clearly not be up to par.

And then you'll come on and tell us all the reasons he was the wrong guy for the job, somewhere down the line in 2009.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

G-L, this last bit is bollocks:

August 22: Match vs ICELAND in Reykjavik, Iceland

September 8: No match scheduled

September 12: Match vs COSTA RICA in Toronto

October 13: No match scheduled

October 17: No match scheduled

November 17: No match scheduled

November 21: No match scheduled

He could have as many as 7 matches before year-end. And he'll have 6 months in 2008. He's overseen 48 U-20 matches in under 5 years as gaffer. That's almost 10 per year. Not too shabby.

I said "competitive games" - that refers to matches which are not friendlies. We don't have any of those between the Gold Cup & qualifying. So Mitchell will not have any games to see how his team performs when it actually counts for something until qualifying begins. It would have been nice to give him the Gold Cup matches for this purpose, to see how his team responds under some pressure. I don't think the U20 matches are particularly relevant as it will not be anywhere close to being the same squad that he coaches when qualifying starts.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Fair enough G-L, but we've known for a few years that Mitchell couldn't manage the senior team during the '07 Gold Cup. Are you saying this fact is significant enough to disqualify him as a legitimate managerial candidate?

[Gian-Luca]

No, it doesn't disqualify him, of course not. My point isn't that he is not a legimiate managerial candidate (that's a point I would disagree with), just that we wasted a year which we could have given him to help better assess & prepare the team for the ultimate goal, World Cup Qualifying. Obviously they can't give it to him now because it would be madness to change the U20 coach on the eve of the tourney, but I don't think it would have been crazy to do that a year ago. Hopefully they will send Dale to the Gold Cup once the U20's are over to see what happens first hand, while Hart actually coaches the team.

This isn't a criticism of Mitchell - it's a criticism of what has transpired with the CSA. Waiting a year to go with the guy you could have gone with a year ago doesn't seem very productive to me.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I guess what I'm getting at is to say that there is no amount of planning that could have made Mitchell available for '07 Gold Cup -short of what you suggest, replacing him as U-20 coach.

This solution seems counter productive. This is the second biggest tournament in the world and we're the host. I don't see how we could replace the guy we're saying is the best manager in our country, just so he can manage Gold Cup. This tournament is crucial for raising the profile of our national program in this country.

Further, a good result will have a psoitive impact on qualifying as guys like Edgar, Begovic, Peters, Lombardo and Johnson are likely going to be pushing into our top 18 in 2008. If you also consider that Hutch, Hume, Simpson, Wagenaar, Hainault, Ledgerwood and Gyaki have all played 'competitive' matches under Mitchell, it's conceivable that more than half our qualifying roster will be familiar with the new manager.

The term "friendly" is a bit misleading. If you guys could come and support the MNT with anywhere near the same intensity we saw Saturday, the match against Costa Rica will be "competitive." Having guys like Hutch, Hume, De Ro, Stalteri, and Radzinski coming home to play for their friends and family in a real stadium will see to that.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

I guess what I'm getting at is to say that there is no amount of planning that could have made Mitchell available for '07 Gold Cup -short of what you suggest, replacing him as U-20 coach.

This solution seems counter productive. This is the second biggest tournament in the world and we're the host. I don't see how we could replace the guy we're saying is the best manager in our country, just so he can manage Gold Cup.

The idea would be to replace him so that he could manage the World Cup team, part of which would include the Gold Cup. If that's the route we were going to take I'd rather we'd have done that when we had the opportunity. Obviously that opportunity is now long gone.

Hopefully Dale will get lots of matches to prepare & we fill up every calendar date. But historically the latter has been a big "if" for the CSA. I think having the stadium in Toronto will help a lot of course. And yes, I think we all hope that the crowds for Canada matches will be just as good as they are for TFC.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

A huge heapload of hindsight I'd say. You make him sound like Hiddink or someone. Dale is only average, and has never shown himself to be more than that. Our team terribly underperformed in Holland, we were pretty damn awful. This time round we will have home court so it is going to harder to judge, as in all probability we will get further than our true level on that basis, and Dale will look great.

Then he'll go the senior men, where we have key players who seemed to not prefer him over Simoes, and he won't have their respect, he won't have half the knowledge they have from their coaches on their pro teams, and he will not get good performances out of them as he will clearly not be up to par.

And then you'll come on and tell us all the reasons he was the wrong guy for the job, somewhere down the line in 2009.

Wow. talk about putting words in my mouth. Just where did I make him out to be Guus Hiddink. You may want to re-read what I said.

By the way, I'll bet that Hiddink's demands would be fewer than Simoes. But where did you come up with the notion that: " he is not a really quality soccer mind, and his people handling is only average."? Unless you've played for him, there is no way to judge his people handling and soccer mind.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

By the way, I'll bet that Hiddink's demands would be fewer than Simoes. But where did you come up with the notion that: " he is not a really quality soccer mind, and his people handling is only average."? Unless you've played for him, there is no way to judge his people handling and soccer mind.

Jeffrey knows Daniel Fernandes from his days in Spain, i believe that is where the people handling comment comes from...

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Wow. talk about putting words in my mouth. Just where did I make him out to be Guus Hiddink. You may want to re-read what I said.

By the way, I'll bet that Hiddink's demands would be fewer than Simoes. But where did you come up with the notion that: " he is not a really quality soccer mind, and his people handling is only average."? Unless you've played for him, there is no way to judge his people handling and soccer mind.

I saw the games in UAE, in Holland, the game vs. Brazil that was webcast, and the first game vs. Scotland. We were not too attractive except in 2003, where in any case we had two wins and three losses. Even there we sort of hung on and got our breaks, some would say some lucky ones even. We generally have no midfield play, no build up beyond four passes, we give up possession very easily. We rarely exploit our strikers' abilities. This is our normal way of playing with Mitchell, and that reveals his soccer mind. He does not know how to coach a more sophisticated game.

As for player selection, yes, the Fernandes case proves he is vindicative and petty and plays favourites. Sometimes he also happens to play guys who don't always deserve it just because of weird hierarchies he has in his head. Prefers silent complacent types, is used to coaching kids.

The moment he is with the seniors, as I said, he will find they are not going to just bow down to him. Some have openly come out in favour of a guy they did not know over him (de Rosario spoke to Simoes we have learnt). They will talk back and give him their views. Almost all of them are coached at their clubs by guys with more experience and more soccer knowledge than he has, including the guys from the MLS. All have egos and don't feel they have to put them aside just cause it is a Canada shirt they are putting on. Dale will have to make a much bigger leap to the level and challenge than they, so he is not going to contribute much to the cause. I predict that with him as coach our players will end up simply coaching themselves, overriding him de facto on the field, and he won't be able to do anything about it.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

So you are basing your assessment of his people handling abilities on one player? Just how well do you know that one player and besides, there is no doubting the fact that Alim Karin, who started in Fernandes' place, played exceptionally well in that tournament. You just need to re-check the game summaries for evidence.

Secondly, where are you seeing the world class coaches (ie.: "Almost all of them are coached at their clubs by guys with more experience and more soccer knowledge than Mitchell")that our player are playing under in Europe. I cannot even think, off the top of my head, of more than one coach whom I am familar. These guys are hardly the Capello's, Hitzfield's, Mourinho's of the world.

the most noteable Int'l soccer mind that I can think of (that has ever coached Cnd players at the club level) might be Roy Hodgson when he coached in norway.

[jpg75]

I wouldn't go as far as Jeffrey has to say that the players will be coaching themselves. But he has a point in that a few of these players will be coached by much better tacticians. Martin Jol is one example, Caparros is another. Chris Coleman may not be a good example, but Lawrie Sanchez sure is.

Other than that i can't think of any of coaches who have a pedigree currently coaching any Canadians. (thinking of Ipswich, Energie, Brugges, Norway, Denmark, etc.) Who is coach at Kaiserslautern? What about the German at Panionios?

[BrennanFan]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

I wouldn't go as far as Jeffrey has to say that the players will be coaching themselves. But he has a point in that a few of these players will be coached by much better tacticians. Martin Jol is one example, Caparros is another. Chris Coleman may not be a good example, but Lawrie Sanchez sure is.

Other than that i can't think of any of coaches who have a pedigree currently coaching any Canadians. (thinking of Ipswich, Energie, Brugges, Norway, Denmark, etc.) Who is coach at Kaiserslautern? What about the German at Panionios?

i guarantee that the club coaches of all of our top 18 players are tactically better than Dale. 100%.

If Dale sent a resume to Tromso or Energie of Kaiserslauten or SIAD Most they would laugh while shredding it.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I really don't think the players give two sods about the manager's professional resume. If these players are professionals themselves they will go in with an open mind and give the new gaffer the benefit of the doubt -that is, those who have not already played for Mitchell.

But let's say we need to start pulling out resumes. Let's say Rob Friend or Olivier Occean has a problem with Dale Mitchell's CV. Perhaps they too are wondering why hasn't Dale Mitchell managed a top level squad? Well, for one thing he's been busy managing Canada to three consecutive U-20 world cups. Before that he lead the Whitecaps to a championship. And before that he scored 19 times for Canada, helping them to a World Cup in '86.

If a Canadian player has a problem with this record, I hope they come out and say it. I'd like to hear their rationale, given their own accomplishments.

[loyola]

It's really tough to evaluate a coach like Mitchell who's been working with an U-20 team for 6 yrs now. But if an NCAA coach like Bruce Arena who had only 2 yrs of pro experience and 1 yrs of youth int coaching experience under his belt was able to get the USA MNT to the quarterfinals of the WC, I don't see why Mitchell could not lead us to the WC or at least to the Hex?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

I really don't think the players give two sods about the manager's professional resume. If these players are professionals themselves they will go in with an open mind and give the new gaffer the benefit of the doubt -that is, those who have not already played for Mitchell.

But let's say we need to start pulling out resumes. Let's say Rob Friend or Olivier Occean has a problem with Dale Mitchell's CV. Perhaps they too are wondering why hasn't Dale Mitchell managed a top level squad? Well, for one thing he's been busy managing Canada to three consecutive U-20 world cups. Before that he lead the Whitecaps to a championship. And before that he scored 19 times for Canada, helping them to a World Cup in '86.

If a Canadian player has a problem with this record, I hope they come out and say it. I'd like to hear their rationale, given their own accomplishments.

I don't think it is a problem with his CV, though of course for a senior player, him getting somewhere with the u-20s does not mean much. All of them spend all year in a club, some with a pretty high standard, including Copenhagen, Rosenborg, even Tromso who play way above their economic level. And a player will compare, it is inevitable. If they are playing a tactically studied game and training at at high level they will see it immediately when a coach with less experience comes in.

Apart from that, there is real evidence that some key players on our squad were hoping it was someone else.

So in the end, saying they are good professionals, will train well with Dale, will show a good attitude and listen to him, is basically like saying they will pay their dues. But you can be damn sure that if they feel he is not doing what it takes, they will take it on themselves to rectify things. First, because they know he was not the first choice and is basically the CSA fail-safe. And second because he is a bit of a lame duck, and there is no risk for them to ignore him on the field or question him off of it.

Sure, I know I am speculating. Dale could always prove us wrong. But if you don't think a prestige quality coach makes a difference, both technically and psychologically, you have never paid attention to the rise of the modest in club football or on the international stage.

[Cheeta]

Well, I'm firmly in the camp that seperates the qualities of youth managers from senior managers. Mixing apples and oranges as far as I'm concearned. Just too many different requirments for each job to blend the two together too much when making comparissons.

Mitch's U20 coaching record while it has to count for something still says "No senior experience". And the Holland tourney, the most recent major tourney under his belt wasn't exactly his shinning momment was it?

Long and short of it is the CSA board has decided on Dale Mitchell and Linford so far seems unable to steer a different heading. We're going into ANOTHER round of WCQ with a virgin international coach. Hoooray.

I doubt any player would "call out" Mitch on his coaching record but I don't doubt that after having experienced the professional coaching enviroments in Holland, or England or Germany or any other 1st or 2nd tier European league they'll make their own conclusions about Mitch's coaching quality and a very imformed one at that.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by BrennanFan

i guarantee that the club coaches of all of our top 18 players are tactically better than Dale. 100%.

If Dale sent a resume to Tromso or Energie of Kaiserslauten or SIAD Most they would laugh while shredding it.

I'm sure pretty much all of them are better tactically then Mitchell (except for some of the Norwegian coaches, check out wiki for some details), but it's not like there's a chasm that can't be bridged with some advice from the players. I guess what i'm saying is that only a few players have had the priviledge of playing for an elite (or may be tactical superb) coach that you could put in the same list as Hitzfeld, Mourinho, Wenger, Hiddink, etc. that was mentioned above...

[CanadasBest]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

If a Canadian player has a problem with this record, I hope they come out and say it. I'd like to hear their rationale, given their own accomplishments.

Let's look at the coaches for comparisson.

Lenarduzzi:

Played for the Whitecaps.

Helped the team to the World Cup in 86. Team had 0 wins, 0 goals scored.

6 years as a professional coach with the 86'ers: Record of 96 Wins, 24 Losses, and 28 ties.

Coach of the National Team: 21 Wins, 26 losses, 15 ties. 2 Failed World Cup Attempts.

Holger:

German Assistant Coach under Beckenbauer: 1987 - 1990

VfL Bochum: 1991 - 1992

Fenerbahçe S.K.: 1993 - 1995

Urawa Reds: 1995 - 1996

Kocaelispor: 1997 - 1998

Coach of the National Team: 20 Wins, 17 Losses, 9 draws. 1st Place Gold Cup 2000, 3rd Place Gold Cup 2002, Gold Cup 2003 failed to advance out of group. 1 Failed World Cup Attempt.

Coaching record since Holger: Yallop, Miller, Hart:

9 Wins, 13 Losses, 3 draws Gold Cup 2005, failed to advance. 1 Failed World Cup Attempt

Rene Simoes record with Jamaica Oct 94 - Mar 2000:

4th Place Gold Cup 1998,

Did not get past first round Gold Cup 2000,

Qualified for WC 1998

44 Wins, 35 Losses, 23 Draws

Anyways my point is that nothing good has come with having a Canadian coach since Lenarduzzi. A good tactical Foreign coach is the way to go if the CSA wants to see results. That's what the fans want, and that's what the players want.

*Edit* And apparently that's what the CSA President and Executive Committee Wants!

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

A huge heapload of hindsight I'd say. You make him sound like Hiddink or someone. Dale is only average, and has never shown himself to be more than that. Our team terribly underperformed in Holland, we were pretty damn awful. This time round we will have home court so it is going to harder to judge, as in all probability we will get further than our true level on that basis, and Dale will look great.

Then he'll go the senior men, where we have key players who seemed to not prefer him over Simoes, and he won't have their respect, he won't have half the knowledge they have from their coaches on their pro teams, and he will not get good performances out of them as he will clearly not be up to par.

And then you'll come on and tell us all the reasons he was the wrong guy for the job, somewhere down the line in 2009.

[:0]

This I am afraid is a likely scenario and one for which I will be very happy if anyone here can later on tell me and those with the same train of thought we were completely wrong.