New Winnipeg Stadium

[jeffymac1971]

Winnipeg Businessman David Asper will to build a 30,000-40,000 seat stadium in exchange for ownership of the Winnipeg Bluebombers. If Fieldturf is installed, it could be used for soccer as well.

[jeffymac1971]

The official link is www.blueandgold.ca

[jonovision]

Looking at the renderings, you might think the boxes surrounding the stadium are just there because it would be too difficult and time-consuming to draw an accurate picture of the stadium's surroundings. But, in fact, that more or less characterizes the St. James St/Polo Park area, one of Winnipeg's many ugly, big-box/warehouse areas. The stadium looks nice thoug, and I'm glad it isn't fully closed.

[Cheeta]

Not a done deal by any measure and a lot of chit-chat "in town" about the whole scheme.

Winnipeg Football Club (aka The Blue Bombers) are on as sound a financial footing as they've ever been within a generation. The club doesn't need Asper money.

This whole scheme is about the idea of a major new stadium for the city of Winnipeg and the lack of enthusiasm for such an overdue capitol expenditure at city hall.

Mark my words. Sooner or later, this will make for some great reality TV. If it gets past the 1st hurdle it'll get REAL ugly.

[jonovision]

I don't mean to drag municipal politics into this whole thing (inevitable as it may be) but spending money on a new stadium can't really be any worse than throwing money at infrastructure to link up urban sprawl developments like Waverley West, or the less than necessary Chief Peguis extension.

You're right, though. There has been a lot of talk about David Asper and a potential new stadium, with several newspaper articles, and besides being front page news for the next few days, there is bound to be a lot more chatter.

The new stadium is overdue, as much as I would miss the trough and other Winnipeg Stadium "amenities".

[VPjr]

it sure looks nice. I'll be curious to see if it gets built. Why would this facility not be approved if the MTS Center was approved and built?

[jonovision]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

it sure looks nice. I'll be curious to see if it gets built. Why would this facility not be approved if the MTS Center was approved and built?

I'm also curious as to whether it will be built or not. I'd put the odds at 40% but really I have no idea.

As to why it might not get built, I can only speculate. The MTS Centre comparison is interesting, but there are a couple of differnces

1. Compared to most stadium/arena projects, including the proposed Asper stadium, there was little public money involved in the building of the MTS Centre. I'm sure I could find the numbers if I looked hard enough, but it was certainly much less than half.

2. Being a modern, indoor venue, the MTS Centre's usefulness extends far beyond being a home for its primary tenant, the AHL's Manitoba Moose. It is busy most nights, with concerts, shows, other sporting events, etc.

3. Many people supported the MTS Centre because it would promote a revitalization of the downtown (I'd say the jury is still out on that one). The stadium, which would be built at the current location of Winnipeg Stadium, would only increase retail traffic to an ugly, and not central, shopping district.

4. As much as we might love our Bombers in Winnipeg, this is Canada and hockey trumps football (of any kind). I think there are also those who think the MTS Centre, being an attractive, modern rink means that there is still hope for the return of NHL hockey. I think that ship has sailed, but I'm probably in the minority.

All that said, I hope this thing gets built (speaking here mostly as a CFL gridiron fan; any soccer-related impacts would be minimal), and I think the government contributions being thrown about are reasonable and not out-of-line with similar projects across Canada.

[Grizzly]

Considering the Asper family's major contributions to the elimination of the free press in Canada, I can't say that I would support any project that they were involved in. Dirty money is dirty money.

[Calgary Boomer]

I smell a USL 1 team for the 'Peg before 2010.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Considering the Asper family's major contributions to the elimination of the free press in Canada, I can't say that I would support any project that they were involved in. Dirty money is dirty money.

I loved watching Leonard trot out the party lines last week when CanWest bought out Alliance Atlantis. I'm in awe that these people can keep a straight face while yapping about takeovers that wreck more channels than they save.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Loud Mouth Soup

I loved watching Leonard trot out the party lines last week when CanWest bought out Alliance Atlantis. I'm in awe that these people can keep a straight face while yapping about takeovers that wreck more channels than they save.

Oh Those Aspers! They're the same guys who want Canadian made Infomercials to qualify as Canadian Content.

db

[redhat]

Ah those Aspers! Yet they do a lot for Winnipeg ...

I do hope that they do get the stadium, and build a world-class facility. Imagine a

new soccer stadium that seat 30,000-40,000 fans! Winnipeg, like many Canadian cities,

has to stop this rinky-dink, low esteem, bargain basement outlook and shoot for the best.

And the design is very modern, very forward-looking, and very un-Winnipeg.

[Richard]

Do you think such a facility could be operated profitably without government operating subsidies?

BC Place in downtown Vancouver is a domed stadium that is a pretty busy place but it has consistently lost money every year to the point where the provincial government is talking about demolishing it after 2010.

[Winnipeg Fury]

I think this will be positive for both the Bombers and Winnipeg.

Mind you, it remains to be seen if it will be suitable for soccer (assuming it is built).

[jonovision]

quote:Originally posted by redhat

Ah those Aspers! Yet they do a lot for Winnipeg ...

I do hope that they do get the stadium, and build a world-class facility. Imagine a

new soccer stadium that seat 30,000-40,000 fans! Winnipeg, like many Canadian cities,

has to stop this rinky-dink, low esteem, bargain basement outlook and shoot for the best.

And the design is very modern, very forward-looking, and very un-Winnipeg.

Very un-Winnipeg? The arches over the middle of the stadium remind me of the new Provencher bridge. Someone joked on a Bombers forum about putting a Salisbury house up there.

I've had time to digest most of this now and I like the idea, but I think that if Asper wants to take over the lucrative lease to the land, and gain ownership of the team, he should put up at least half the money for the stadium, not the third he is committing right now.

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by jonovision

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Bold

Very un-Winnipeg? The arches over the middle of the stadium remind me of the new Provencher bridge. Someone joked on a Bombers forum about putting a Salisbury house up there.

Other than the Provencher bridge, I don't really see any other

structure close to it. I see the design close to Sydney's stadium,

something different. The current Stadium is no different from Ottawa

or, heaven forbid, Regina, or a small U.S. college stadium. (Mankato

College?)

As for Asper footing ALL the bill, I think that's unrealistic in

today's sporting world. Most cities support such huge infrastructure

with public money. Besides, I would rather that Mr. Asper gets the

ownership headache of signing a high-priced QB or backup for that

matter.

As for Salisbury House, well, would you prefer to paint the arches

golden and call it McStadium? We need a stadium, and those guys

that need a soccer stadium should embrace it because the Soccer

Complex has not been upgraded, or will ever be, under our current

anti-soccer mayor. At least Asper stepped up.

[Captain Spaulding]

Asper's contribution is somewhat less than one-third after federal and provincial contributions and the city's donation of the land. In return he gets ownership of the Bombers and the stadium and the land it sits on which is prime real estate. I assume the revenue from concessions etc, will all go to him. Nobody is talking about taxes and infrastructure of course.

The 25 million investment in retail is of course a given, since it will probably be at least partly on the land the city is giving him.

The acid test is how long Asper will guarantee to keep a CFL team in Winnipeg. The CFL will lose Toronto when the NFL expands into that city, and the league will probably fold without it's television revenue. Does anyone know how often the Bombers sell out the stadium now?

Of course, there's alway the possibility of Judas Priest concerts.

gh

Once I was Marvin, but now I'm an explorer.

[Grizzly]

I think the Asper deal as it currently stands is a very poor one. He is proposing the governments build him a stadium with only a minor contribution from himself. For that favour he receives the free gift of becoming owner of the Blue Bombers without paying anything and destroying 76 years of public ownership tradition. Here is an article with a similar point of view.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Friesen/2007/01/16/3388687-sun.html

Asper plan no slam dunk

More expected from proposal

And here I thought David Asper's save-the-Bombers proposal might be too good to turn down.

You know, like the time Robert Johnson just couldn't say no to the devil down at the crossroads, selling his soul for a mean guitar hand, as legend has it.

This isn't that kind of deal.

In fact, if I'm chairman of the Bomber board, I'm thanking Asper for his interest and letting him know we'll get back to him -- on our timetable, not his.

For some reason, I expected more from the wanna-be team owner than he came up with the other day.

For starters, I thought the newspaper and TV magnate would be willing to contribute at least half the cost of a new stadium, not the one-third ($40 million of $120 million) he's tabled.

Kind of figured he'd present a few options where the team's ownership is concerned, too.

TURN OUR BACKS

Nope, Asper wants us to turn our backs on 76 years of community ownership, hand over the keys to the franchise -- not to mention the lucrative lease it has for the property it occupies -- and trust him.

Seven years ago, when the Bombers couldn't afford a roll of toilet paper, this deal would have been manna from heaven.

A local businessman with pockets deeper than West Hawk Lake offering to take over the team and contribute towards a stadium?

Where do we sign, the team's board of directors might have said, reaching for the pen with one hand while attempting to keep the franchise teetering on the brink with the other.

Things have changed, though.

Part of a CFL that's healthier than it's been in decades, the Bombers are not only out of debt, they have some $4 million in the bank. Beginning next year, their annual share of league television and sponsorship revenue will approach $2 million.

Today, the franchise probably carries a price tag of between $7 million and $10 million, not including its bank account.

Perhaps most importantly, the Bombers have an agreement with the city that gives the team complete control over the land it occupies -- acres of prime space in the hottest retail area in the city.

Developed, that alone could net several million dollars per year, apart from any profits the Bombers could generate playing in a new, fan-friendly facility.

So if the Bomber board isn't falling all over itself rushing to sign the Asper plan, you know why.

While chairman Ken Hildahl was impressed by Sunday's glitzy presentation, he wasn't still seeing stars 24 hours later.

"This isn't a club that's desperate," Hildahl said. "This isn't a club that's in financial difficulty. In fact, quite the opposite. We're probably in the best financial shape than we have been at any point in our history.

"Once we get beyond the flash of a new stadium, and that's all very appealing ... we're bringing significant value to the proposal."

Which is why the Bombers owe it to us to see if there are entrepreneurs with other ideas.

Partnering with a businessman like Asper for the commercial development makes good sense. But it seems to me there'd be a much better appetite to spend public money on a new facility if the team remained in public hands.

RAISE ITS OWN

There are ways the team could raise its own contribution to a stadium, too. For instance, 20,000 personal seat licenses at, say, $500 each would raise $10 million.

The naming rights to the place would be worth a few million more.

Don't forget: we've invested millions in this team over the years.

Every fan who's ever bought a ticket or made a donation, every businessperson who's ever written off a debt, heck, every taxpayer in this province owns a piece of the Blue Bombers.

Like the Saskatchewan Roughriders or Green Bay Packers, that's what gives this team its soul.

So far, nobody's convinced me to sell it.

[redhat]

You know that article has some merit, but it's just another commentary.

Let me confirm a few things of "75 years of tradition":

1) the stadium is old and is need of improvement

2) the Bombers have always needed public money to survive

3) the Bombers had to get several loans and guarantees from governments to operate

4) the Bombers cannot compete with BC, Toronto, Edmonton, Calgary

even for a BACKUP quarterback due to their finances

5) the seats for years were aluminum benches and did not have a backing on the seats

6) the last upgrade were from funds used in the Pan Am Games

7) want to compare stadiums? check out the Alerus stadium in Grand Forks, ND.

and the domed stadium in Fargo, ND.

8) check out the concessions and parking over the years. Any covered areas against

the cold?

9) when do the Bombers actually pay off their previous accumulated debt?

10) where could we play professional soccer in Winnipeg?

75 years of tradition is great. However we need take the team and OUR CITY

into the now and future, because WE DESERVE IT. And not many Winnipeggers would stand

for junk facilities.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by redhat

You know that article has some merit, but it's just another commentary.

Let me confirm a few things of "75 years of tradition":

1) the stadium is old and is need of improvement

2) the Bombers have always needed public money to survive

3) the Bombers had to get several loans and guarantees from governments to operate

4) the Bombers cannot compete with BC, Toronto, Edmonton, Calgary

even for a BACKUP quarterback due to their finances

5) the seats for years were aluminum benches and did not have a backing on the seats

6) the last upgrade were from funds used in the Pan Am Games

7) want to compare stadiums? check out the Alerus stadium in Grand Forks, ND.

and the domed stadium in Fargo, ND.

8) check out the concessions and parking over the years. Any covered areas against

the cold?

9) when do the Bombers actually pay off their previous accumulated debt?

10) where could we play professional soccer in Winnipeg?

75 years of tradition is great. However we need take the team and OUR CITY

into the now and future, because WE DESERVE IT. And not many Winnipeggers would stand

for junk facilities.

MTS turns Winnipeg into a bunch of spoiled brats.

[Cheeta]

Maybe. In truth I don't think MTS is too flash if you follow. It's just that compared to "The Arena" it's beautiful.

MTS has so far been a big success even if the Manitoba Moose have not. It's constantly used. The downtown location worries have mostly dried up. In fact, the location worries have evaporated for A LOT of people. The location just looks all-around genius now. At least in my neck of the woods.

Just to square off with redhat a bit because I think I'm far more cynical about this Asper deal and far more protective of the public institution, that is The Bombers than he;

1). Absolutely.

2). Half true. If you mean they've used private off-field fund raising/donations to subsidise the on field end of the business you're spot on. If you mean they've gone to goverment anymore than a lot of other private business' in Winnipeg on OCCASSION in their times of need, then not a chance.

3). Yeah, and? Same as Bombardier, NewFlyer, Motorcoach Industries, MapleLeaf Foods, blah, blah, blah.

4). As I understand it this is due to the rules in Manitoba which force the directors of a community/not-for-profit organization to abide by their by-laws or be financialy responsable personaly for any losses which occure in that organization which are a result of that organizations operating outside of it's by-laws. Pretty much what this has done is force the Blue Bombers to abide by the CFL salary cap while no other franchise has. If the CFL does as it has promised in enforing a firm salary cap this coming season, the Bombers will be by far the biggest benefactors.

5) Yup. Total crap. Those seats they installed are even worse though don't you think? Completely rubbish.

6). Sounds about right. But the biggest mistake they ever made was replacing the turf with plastic. And for what? Multiuse? Doubt they ever saved a nickle doing that. No one uses the stadium for anything but gridiron even now.

7). Both very nice. Buddy was actually asking what the point was of having an open air venue in Winnipeg? Seemed crazy to him. Told him it's like 1/2 the price to build and likely a 1/10th the cost to maintain.

8). Nope. And I'd be surprised if there ever would be.

9). Already have. Including the low interest loans they received from the City of W and the Province of Manitoba. They've 4 million cash in the bank and a guarentee of 2 millions in league revenues next year (plus the annual Grey Cup windfall each team gets if the league doesn't spend it propping up some failing franchise over the 2007 season. Which they won't).

10). Winnipeg Soccer Complex 2 at the University of Manitoba. World class FieldTurf, floodlights, and maybe a decent grandstand, we'll see. Opening fall of 2007 I hear. My beer league is gonna loose it's pitchs it sounds like though. Boooo!!!

Long and short, we don't know enough about this deal to say it's anything more than a land grab. If he wants property in the Polo Park retail area, buy it. Don't pretend it's some sort of generous favour to the people of Winnipeg. You're not fooling anybody.

Until I see something different, leave my Bombers alone.

[Captain Spaulding]

Probably a good question would be: What would the Bombers do if the province and the feds gave them 80 million to invest in their stadium and facilities. And their by-laws were amended to give them the option of retail development on their property?

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

MTS turns Winnipeg into a bunch of spoiled brats.

You really think MTS is such a great arena? It's okay, but not

that state of the art.

More like a compromise, based on goofy people who wanted to keep

the old Eaton's facade intact. Too bad earlier designs included

high-tech, made-in-Manitoba technology and graphics, but it was

"too fancy" for the vox populi.

Winnipeg is the head office of Great-West Life, Investors Group,

the Richardsons, Tan Jay, Gendis (Sony Canada), and a few other

huge corporations. It has money, but also an inferiority complex

that it accepts "small" and mediocracy. Like the new slogan for

the province: "spirited energy". What the hell does that mean?

Spoiled brats? Check out the tight, super-small seats in the

upper deck of MTS ... Manitoba luxury.

[Winnipeg Fury]

If notihng else, it looks like Winnipeg is now going to get a new stadium. Whether it be on the current location or the original proposed Red River Ex site, it's good new either way.

What we must insure is that regardless which design is chosen, that the stadium will be suitable for international/professional soccer.

Who's up for lunch ? Drop me a line....

[Jason]

I think it's an exciting time to be a sports fan in Winnipeg. They have been able to build a decent baseball park and arena. What have other large western cities built lately...not much. Even in oil rich Calgary there is no talk of any new facilities. I give total credit to Winnipeg for making the effort.

If a facility gets built, I'd suspect that soccer will be a bigger part of it than the current building, which is nothing but good news for soccer fans.

Jason