Daniel Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 Usually speaking, these people were born in the former Yugoslavia and emigrated in the 90's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 T5 is bang on in his assessment. The ethnic congrerating of teams and players in Ontario is entirely destructive to the success of the sport. What we have are a collection of small minded people who choose to not see beyond their own limited social culture. I suppose it represents a microcosm of Canada, in some ways. At least urban Canada. The way out is through leadership. Pure and simple. The CSL has shown itself entirely unable to do this, I am afraid. Just a bush league with no vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 Whether you like it or not, without the ethnic alliance structure the clubs would not exist. It is what puts them together, holds them together, funds them, gives them their administrative structure, and inspires them to compete and win. Without it we would simply have a dozens less amateur or partially-pro teams in Canada, and a lot fewer places to play reasonably competitive soccer. After that, if they want to open up and be ecumenical, as most do and are, well all the better. I agree with those claiming that this same structure limits the possible growth of these teams, but since there is no way that ethnic teams in Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver are going to move anywhere upwards in terms of leagues (except if they think PDL is more attractive, with its travelling costs, than CPSL, assuming the former is a higher level, which I am not sure of), what does it matter. Guys, it is like having a volunteer fire department. You can bitch all you want about how volunteers are not properly prepared to put out real fires, but since you don't have a professional fire department, and noone will pay for one, and the volunteers take their role as seriously as they can, what are you suggesting? Let the fires burn on a question of principles? On top of this it has to be said that connections these clubs have often get players trials in Europe, and help to arrange visits from pro clubs, who apart from offering an attractive friendly game may also notice a player on the local side. Just want to say that for me personally, I would not be particularly interested in giving special specific support to a club team from my ethnic background, as I am not that way. I would tend to be in favour of a team from my town or neighbourhood, instead of my ethnic origins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analyst Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 The first adult team I played for was called "United'. It was created by English and Scots who wanted to play together. After they retired from playing, the name lived on, and the roster changed, but generally whenever a new player from England or Scotland emigrated to our city, they usually ended up playing for "United". Today, the name United is quite prevalent, for example in the Vancouver area, there is Richmond United and Surrey United, etc. The name sounds all-inclusive but is it really all inclusive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 United doesn't care about black people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. Whether you like it or not, without the ethnic alliance structure the clubs would not exist. It is what puts them together, holds them together, funds them, gives them their administrative structure, and inspires them to compete and win. Without it we would simply have a dozens less amateur or partially-pro teams in Canada, and a lot fewer places to play reasonably competitive soccer. Take a look at the Serbian White Eagles roster. That is hardly the kind of team that would help sell soccer in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Take a look at the Serbian White Eagles roster. That is hardly the kind of team that would help sell soccer in Canada. That could be Doyle, I am not arguing that point. But it is an exception, many and I would even say the majority of other teams with Italian or Greek or other alliances have players from other ethnic backgrounds playing for them. I would hope, though, that if a player for Serbian White Eagles got a good offer from another side he would go, chosing his career interests over his ethnic ties. Or isn't that what usually happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 There are players who would sacrifice a level to play on their local ethnic side, but I don't see that as a huge problem. It's not like we're talking about national calibre players here. The issue with the ethnic sides is that they almost work against the better sides. A classic example is the old CSL. In Toronto you also had an ethnic based league - the NSL. Many of these teams, in particular Toronto Italia and Toronto Croatia, had better support and larger financial resources that the Toronto Blizzard or the NY Rockets. This was a function of the tribalistic attitudes of the people supporting the NSL (and the NSL commissioner who was a narrow minded idiot). In short, the people in these communities were much more willing to give their time, energy and support to thier local team than they were to the Blizzard. I'm talking about simple things like buying a ticket. Or a jersey. This was a factor in the ultimate demise of the CSL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T5 Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Richard I thought the nationality of these children of immigrants whose parents push them into ethnic teams would be Canadian. If so many people think this ethnic structure is bad for the development of players and others think it is bad for Canadian unity et al then why is the CSL endorsing it so thoroughly by introducing their 'international division'? This is a complete endorsment by the CSL of the corrosive ethnic based soccer structure. My mother was born in Scotland, and with due respect, there was a time in Canadian soccer where unless you were British, you had a hard time moving up the chain of those who controlled soccer in Canada. They ruled with an iron fist and were hated for it by every other nationality that immigrated here. It was hard to get licenced if you were "other than" when all the testing was done by the Brits. Much preferance was given to "their people" and some of that mentallity exists even today. You say things change. BS The newer the immigrant, the closer they stick together and with reason. First generation immigrants have a hard time adjusting both to the ways of the country; the language; the customs and the multicultural makeup of the population. Cut them some slack. They are "New Canadians" not old ones like you and I. It takes a couple of generations to built the trust and they have reason to be leery. A lot of blood has been spilled, even though not here. The CSL by endorsing the ethnic teams does so in a similar vein to the rivalry between certain teams and cities in the EPL and Europe. Just don't ask a Chelsea fan to start cheering for a rival team, Man U or other. You'll get a punch in the nose. There's always going to be rivalry's, all this of course you know. You just can't stop grinding on the CSL. Give it a rest. PCSL are good.... not after them... peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteEagle Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 "Take a look at the Serbian White Eagles roster. That is hardly the kind of team that would help sell soccer in Canada." Interesting statement - not aware that roster names signify whether someone is Canadian or not. Let's look at the roster. Excluding the 4 imports, the rest of the roster is composed of players from other teams in the CSL and players that are born or are Canadians. And yes, it would be ideal having a professional league in Canada with no ethnicity. That would be only be reality if we flooded the field and strapped skates on the players.... then perhaps "Canadians" would support their leagues and teams - and NO need for ethnic teams. Let's review some other aspects since we started this team several months ago. In a short time we were able to put a solid competative team on the field. The support of the community has been solid. Financially, we were able to garner enough support from various sources and resources beyond the community with little or no league help. The competative nature of the league has increased to a level that we can compete with the "lofty" U.S. Toronto Lynx etc. Now... is there anything positive that can be said on this forum in respect to any team in the international division. When was the last time you had a thread that showed the vast dialogue in respect to "Serbs", "Croats", "Italians", etc. I read these forums and all I see is negativity. Perhaps we should pull our "bad" ethnic Serbian team and place it in another league.. a league where "football" is appreciated... oops..there is no other league. Excuse the sarcasm but have grown a little tired of the ethnic bashing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HamiltonSteelers Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 For the record... SWE 3 - Tor. Croatia 1 Pop was sent off shortly after it went 2-0. The Croatians outnumbered the Serbs in the stands, but the Serbs were organized and looked and sounded impressive. Their countdown-banner-flare move was quite the envy of the few BHTC in attendance. The players, for the most part, were rather classy in the face of an ethnic distaste that was brought with them when they emigrated. After a flare hit the turf and started to burn the carpet, an announcement rang over the tannoy stating that if another flare is lit, stadium management would shut the lights off and the game would be over. Croatia were awarded a penalty which they converted on, to make it 3-1. The Croatians lit 4 or 5 flares, a roman candle and threw a few of the flares onto the field. They killed the lights, and the game was called with 15 mins left in the match. Idiots. It was such a quality match and they had to ruin the end, which was sure to be a good finish. I guesstimated over 2000 for the match. Serbs on the north stand, Croats on the south. The venue was moved due to the demo'ing of the north stand at Brian Timmis. $15 to get in, and it was an entertaining match... very good atmosphere and the SWE looked a step or two ahead of TC for most of the game. I was afraid that this might be the catalyst of a Hamilton Serbians (local league & cup winners, Open cup QF) or Hamilton Croatia club in the CSL. I say "afraid" since this isn't the kind of club I want to support, but who am I anyways That being said, if this is a regular fixture in Hamilton, I'm there. Too bad most weren't there for a match (the Croatians anyways... little to no applause for attempts, shots, saves). Many CSL 'dignitaries' were in attendance, including a certain manager from London... 4 rows infront. Ran into Zelko Dukic, ex-Hamilton... always a class act and it was good to see him there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by T5 My mother was born in Scotland, and with due respect, there was a time in Canadian soccer where unless you were British, you had a hard time moving up the chain of those who controlled soccer in Canada. They ruled with an iron fist and were hated for it by every other nationality that immigrated here. It was hard to get licenced if you were "other than" when all the testing was done by the Brits. Much preferance was given to "their people" and some of that mentallity exists even today. You say things change. BS The newer the immigrant, the closer they stick together and with reason. First generation immigrants have a hard time adjusting both to the ways of the country; the language; the customs and the multicultural makeup of the population. Cut them some slack. They are "New Canadians" not old ones like you and I. It takes a couple of generations to built the trust and they have reason to be leery. A lot of blood has been spilled, even though not here. The CSL by endorsing the ethnic teams does so in a similar vein to the rivalry between certain teams and cities in the EPL and Europe. Just don't ask a Chelsea fan to start cheering for a rival team, Man U or other. You'll get a punch in the nose. There's always going to be rivalry's, all this of course you know. You just can't stop grinding on the CSL. Give it a rest. PCSL are good.... not after them... peace. I am a landed immigrant. Nobody cut me any slack and I sure as hell didn't expect it. I worked hard with my family to ensure they all felt and grew up non-hyphenated Canadian and I succeeded. I fly no flags except the Canadian flag. I have no patience with those who will not make such an effort themselves and who insist in wallowing in their past. And if you can't see the difference between ethic teams playing in Canadian leagues and the supporter's fervour that exists between the fans of Chelsea and other English league clubs then you're the one with a problem not me. I support the CSL for what it really is, not what it purports to be and I will criticise the CSL when I believe it is doing something dumb, no matter what you think. I would expect people to do exactly that with any league I may be involved in or support too. I am concerned solely with the players and the game, not silly ethnic carry over rivalries from people who refuse to accept they are living in Canada not the old country, be that Brits or any other ethnicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by SF There are players who would sacrifice a level to play on their local ethnic side, but I don't see that as a huge problem. It's not like we're talking about national calibre players here. The issue with the ethnic sides is that they almost work against the better sides. A classic example is the old CSL. In Toronto you also had an ethnic based league - the NSL. Many of these teams, in particular Toronto Italia and Toronto Croatia, had better support and larger financial resources that the Toronto Blizzard or the NY Rockets. This was a function of the tribalistic attitudes of the people supporting the NSL (and the NSL commissioner who was a narrow minded idiot). In short, the people in these communities were much more willing to give their time, energy and support to thier local team than they were to the Blizzard. I'm talking about simple things like buying a ticket. Or a jersey. This was a factor in the ultimate demise of the CSL. Yes, the same thing happened in Winnipeg. Lucania were one of the best amateur clubs in Canada at that time and did everything in their power to undermine the Winnipeg Fury. Lucania management would bash the Fury in the media every chance they had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by WhiteEagle People see a Serbian name with Serbian players. All you do is reinforce that your a bunch a insular bigots and racists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regs Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Is that a statement of irony or what? You should be a little more careful in how you choose to label others! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 I remember back in the days of the CSL (the real one) and the NSL. There were plenty of negotiations on the part of the CSL to integrate NSL clubs. The arguement of the CSL was for the NSL clubs to water down their ethnic affiliation to the point where Canadians not belonging to the specific ethnic group would not feel alienated from supporting the club. Instead of Toronto Italia, why not the Toronto Romans ? The club could still wear blue, but call themselves Romans (of the historic variety). Show some creativity so the specific ethnic group is not alienated, but it also opens doors for all Canadians. A number of compromises were offered, but the ethnic clubs could not budge on anything. Even though the NSL was in more trouble (and did eventually die) than the CSL, they still would not bend. Nobody could work together for the greater good (that being Canada), and ultimately it was a major reason for the CSL's demise. This point is always missed and cannot be over emphasized when discussing the demise of the CSL. The Serbian White Eagles are a perfect example. If you asked anyone on the Prairies what a 'white eagle' would represent, they would tell you it comes from aboriginal culture. They would not have a clue (unless from the Balkans) that it is Serbian. So why not drop the Serbian ? It's a no -brainer. You are only going to broaden your appeal. Probably still not a great name for your average Canuck (obvious confusion regarding the name) but at least it does not alienate 99% of the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Fury, you are bang on and that is why the "ethnic clubs" have been a significant harm to Canadian soccer. It doesn't have to be that way, it just has been. That is the experience. No reasonable person will be critical of the Toronto Italian community (to pull one example) of organizing a soccer club. That is great. The issue is how the clubs are operated - like little fiefdoms that try and become kings of all Canadian soccer. Instead of working for the greater good - the game of soccer in Canada. I used to play for one of these teams (I was the sole non-ethnic on the team). I was not subject to any form of racism and genuinely liked most of my teammates. But I did see how extraordinarily insular the persepctive was. These guys (and everyone involved in the club) would go absolutely nuts when their "home country" was playing. When Canada was playing I would try and arrange some support and the response would be muted at best. The point is they didn't care about Canadian soccer. They cared about Italian soccer (starting to give myself away...) and felt that this club was an extension of Italian soccer. All of this is now re-manifested in the new CSL and it all works against Canadian soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Just wanted to say congrats to the Serbian White Eagles for finally kicking some life back into the semi-pro level of soccer in southern Ontario again. I wouldn't pay any attention to the negativity on here. God forbid that a club like yours would actually use the dominant form of tribalism within the demographic that is most keen on pro soccer in this country to actually draw a crowd. Scandalous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by SF Fury, you are bang on and that is why the "ethnic clubs" have been a significant harm to Canadian soccer. It doesn't have to be that way, it just has been. That is the experience........I used to play for one of these teams (I was the sole non-ethnic on the team). I was not subject to any form of racism and genuinely liked most of my teammates. But I did see how extraordinarily insular the persepctive was. Sad to say that someone who was at the at White Eagles-Croatia game witnessed Serb fans doing monkey chants against a black player who happened to be playing for the Croat team. So I have to think that ethnic teams can harm the image of the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Are you seriously trying to suggest that the mainstream demographic never does anything racist at Canadian sports events? http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/full_story.asp?StoryNumber=17020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Are you seriously trying to suggest that the mainstream demographic never does anything racist at Canadian sports events? Playing up the ethnic aspect certainly doesn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Playing up the ethnic aspect certainly doesn't help. Not been my experience to be honest having played plenty of amateur games alongside visible minority players. The biggest race issue tends to be out in the countryside with teams that are comprised entirely of white non-immigrants and not in the cities where most ethnic community based teams are located. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalkanBoy Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Not been my experience to be honest having played plenty of amateur games alongside visible minority players. The biggest race issue tends to be out in the countryside with teams that are comprised entirely of white non-immigrants and not in the cities where most ethnic community based teams are located. Your 'experience' has nothing to do with the matter. By your own admission you aren't even in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 quote:Originally posted by RealGooner Your 'experience' has nothing to do with the matter. By your own admission you aren't even in Canada. I am in Canada and my experience is based on playing soccer in southern Ontario. To try to link ethnic soccer clubs to racism is just disgusting. Racism is a problem that permeates all of Canadian society and is not something that is confined to recent immigrant groups. If anything I would have thought an environment like the CSL's International Division that promotes multiculturalism would help to alleviate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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