Winnipeg Fury Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 quote:Originally posted by dbailey62 WF, in all honesty, I would say that the Rockets rarely drew crowds of that size regardless of what the printed numbers might say. The stand at Esther Shiner Stadium holds only about 1500 people and there were many an occasion when there really were only a few hundred in the stands. I recall one TSN televized match with less than one hundred in the stands albeit due to a torrential downpour prior to the game. I can say that it was during this period that Italia crowds started to decline. I did two seasons coverage of Italia for Rogers and rarely did the crowds break the four figure mark. While it's true that the presence of the NSL was not helpful to the Blizzard or the Rockets (in any of the league's they played in), I believe that there negative impact was more in the sense that they were a nuisance and an annoyance. WF, I like what you write as I think you realize and I don't like disagreeing with you but in regards to Rockets attendance, I had to say a few words. cheers db I always appreciate a bit of history and look forward to your comments (the same goes for BringBacktheBlizzard). If you say North York had some weak gates, who am I to argue. I will say this about North York: The owner (Tony Fontana) was extremely respected by the boys in Winnipeg and they could not say enough good things about him. He was indeed a rare breed with integrety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 quote:Originally posted by L.T. "exploit" - the most over- and mis-used word in the vocabulary of the self-righteous. Yes, there is so much exploitation going on, come visit some of Toronto's ethnic slums that have formed because the evil CSL has forced them into supporting a semi-pro team on weekends. How many of you backing the ridiculous claim that this somehow hurts (or has any impact on whatsover) the future of professional soccer in Canada spend their weekends watching millionaires play soccer on TV rather than spending $5-$10 to catch a local game? Even if you do both, how can you continually slam a portion of the miniscule population of this country that is actually willing to pay to watch domestic soccer? Isn't a much stronger indictment on the state of the game the fact that thousands of 'true Canadians' still follow the soccer in the 'homeland' on tv yet could care less about the domestic game? Let's say two people started bitching to you about the state of soccer in this country. One is a loyal follower of his local team and shows up every week to PAY to watch part-timers face off on a local high school fan. The other has never seen a domestic game and watches the EPL on Saturdays and MAYBE goes to see Celtic/ManU etc when they head to North America for a vacation/exhibition. I know which one I'd go tell the f*** himself and which one I'd tell to keep the faith (regardless of whether or not the team is 'ethnic') None of you condemning the CSL for 'exploiting' ethnic differences has put forth a decent rebuttal to the comment that soccer's popularity is fundamentally based on ethnic differences. Why are the World Cup and Champions League and Copa Libertadores so compelling? And why is it okay at this level, but not at the semi-pro level that, except for this board has a sphere of influence of about 10 ft? I run a discussion forum for Ontario Soccer (predominantly youth)that gets over 5,000 visitors a day. Except for a couple of ultras wannabes, no one could care less about any CSL team, much less the Croats and Serbs. The CSL has found a way to stay alive while being able to give some players the rare opportunity to make a little cash playing soccer in this country. I'm not one to tell them to blow it up and instead run some glorified men's league or sit around a bar wishing the original CSL was still around... If you cannot grasp the vast difference between the examples you quote of inter-national leagues and tournaments that are truly international, and a regional domestic league that introduced this 'international division' in a desperate move to boost gate revenues by pitting Canadians of different ethnic origins against each other there is little point in pursuing the discussion with you. Soccer is not responsible for the slums in Toronto and soccer cannot solve that problem but emphasising the differences between Canadians for the sake of money sure as hell is not helping. I wish the CSL well but this international division is definitely the wrong way to go as evidenced by the USL and MLS that will have nothing to do with that kind of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 quote: Originally posted by Richard If you cannot grasp the vast difference between the examples you quote of inter-national leagues and tournaments that are truly international, and a regional domestic league that introduced this 'international division' in a desperate move to boost gate revenues by pitting Canadians of different ethnic origins against each other there is little point in pursuing the discussion with you. I guess I'm just a simpleton but that sounds like a cop out answer to me. If the difference in underlying theme between both types of events is in fact 'vast' please explain them to me so I can reach your level of understanding. (the level of condescension displayed on this board is almost overwhelming) quote: Originally posted by Richard Soccer is not responsible for the slums in Toronto and soccer cannot solve that problem but emphasising the differences between Canadians for the sake of money sure as hell is not helping. I was being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 quote:Originally posted by L.T. .....I'm not one to tell them to blow it up and instead run some glorified men's league..... Find this comment quite interesting given that beyond 1 (maybe 2 with the Borderstars) franchises they already do run a league that is comparable in almost every respect to elite amateur teams. Worth noting that the distinction between amateur and pro in Ontario soccer is based on a totally outdated approach that goes back to the old notions of amateurism that used to surround the Olympic Games. The reality is that some players do get a little cash playing for certain amateur teams, while others get no money whatsoever playing for certain CPSL teams. The other thing that strikes me reading this thread is what do people on here actually expect the CPSL to be able to achieve as a regional adult semi-pro league with only non-ethnic based teams given that there is no mass market in Ontario for that kind of league in football, hockey, basketball or baseball? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T5 Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Richard: there is a difference from the American based USL and MSL. Put it this way, "You ask an immigrated US citizen what he or she is and the answer is and will always be an AMERICAN." They have pride in their country. They are lucky to be Americans and their system won't tolerate anything other than 100% backing. You don't like the terms, see ya later. Put that to a lot of immigrated Canadians, (eg. the one's just rescued from mideast) and the are where ever they came from, then Canadian. For many, they are Canadian for the passport. Our government is much more tolerant to newcomers. Bring your customs to Canada and we'll change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River City Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 quote:Originally posted by T5 Put that to a lot of immigrated Canadians, (eg. the one's just rescued from mideast) and the are where ever they came from, then Canadian. For many, they are Canadian for the passport. Our government is much more tolerant to newcomers. Bring your customs to Canada and we'll change. Blame it on the Natives...they had the most tolerant system of all when accomodating newcomers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River City Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG The other 4 you mention do go blaming everyone else but themselves for their problems. Croats did bad but they admit to their errors. Serbian pride in that they are angels prevents them from admitting that they've done anything wrong. DoyleG, nice take on the nationalities...any other ones you care to do? Also, can you cc me on the email you got from the Croats admitting their errors as well as the one from the Serbs claiming they're angels and never did anything wrong? Your source of information must be pretty good, if you can make broad generalizations like that. Wow a civil war takes place, NATO takes ones side, Russia the other and DoyleG is able to sum everything up in 5 words or less. Nice. quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Considering that they had 10,000 in the old NSL days shows that people have move beyond the ethnic label. Of course, those who make up the Serb support aren't likely to show loyalty to Canada when need be. Maybe people just don't like to pay to watch soccer anymore.... As for the Serbs, not supporting Canada, I bet you they would if Canada played Croatia..... quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Can't say that the Cracker Cats play in an inferior league since they don't have to worry about a MLB squad wrecking a roster for an already failed playoff run. The Cats concern would be more about the National team taking players although their success would trickle down to Cats. The problem with your statement is that all teams in Edmonton are reliant on that mom and pop market. The only exception to that rule is the Oilers who are the white collar kings. Even the Esks need that Ma and Pa audience in order to break even. The Rush have gone onto the disposal income group but they've made the move towards the lacrosse community (fastest growing sport in Edmonton) because they need them to survive. You can see this in the skeds with teams playing more and more games on weekends to get those ma and pa groups out. The Cracker Cats are forced to play mid-week because of the size of their schedule. Did you just say that Northern League Baseball is not inferior to Triple A ball? The Esks have been around forever and have the Ma and Pa crowd all to themselves. An upcoming team can't expect to convert them into Soccer or Lacrosse fans overnight. Which is why the Rush have fared so much better. Yes they did reach out to the Lacrosse community which happens to fall in their target group. But their average attendance was over 10,000....and I'm pretty sure Edmonton doesn't have 10,000 Lacrosse players. quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Yet you talk about Cheerleaders being used to attract males then the males will buy tickets just to watch the cheerleaders and nothing else. Given the cost that such cheerleaders take, the teams don't pay for them and it's up to sponsors to cover the cost. Even then, you won't get a real increase in those tickets. Hence the ma and pa branch is the still essential part of the sports in Canada. The Cheerleaders are part of the package, not the main feature. If you're selling to a young male demographic, you need attitude, sex and alcohol. Forget the Ma and Pa crowd, they've been targeted before and they haven't bothered to come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 quote:Originally posted by T5 Richard: there is a difference from the American based USL and MSL. Put it this way, "You ask an immigrated US citizen what he or she is and the answer is and will always be an AMERICAN." They have pride in their country. They are lucky to be Americans and their system won't tolerate anything other than 100% backing. You don't like the terms, see ya later. Put that to a lot of immigrated Canadians, (eg. the one's just rescued from mideast) and the are where ever they came from, then Canadian. For many, they are Canadian for the passport. Our government is much more tolerant to newcomers. Bring your customs to Canada and we'll change. And you're willing to encourage that approach as well as support and promote a commercial venture that exploits the ethnic differences (and antipathies for some) between these immigrant Canadian groups for monetary gain? Maybe you're quite content to shrug your shoulders and let it be even if you are uncomfortable with it, thereby condoning through indifference. I am not, I have and will continue to speak out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River City Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Fight The Power Richard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Richard ....promote a commercial venture that exploits the ethnic differences (and antipathies for some) between these immigrant Canadian groups for monetary gain? Nobody in their right mind would invest in a CPSL franchise (ethnic or otherwise) as a way to make money. People do it first and foremost because they love the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 There is an old Spanish proverb, could be from Lope de Vega, which pretty well sums up the hypocrisy and fallacious thinking of those condemning "ethnic" on this thread: El perro del hortelano, no come ni deja comer. The farmer's dog, doesn't eat, nor lets anyone else eat. This came to me after the brilliant argument about no ethnic team ever getting a crowd of a thousand on the prairies. That hotbed of great soccer club followings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Nobody in their right mind would invest in a CPSL franchise (ethnic or otherwise) as a way to make money. People do it first and foremost because they love the sport. Monetary gain is just as pertinent when it refers to to reducing losses. I do agree that at current prices there never was a truer statement than the first clause of your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. The farmer's dog, doesn't eat, nor lets anyone else eat. perfect... In half a page I wasn't able to get my point across as clearly as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I guess if your attitude is 'anything for a dollar' then ethnic forever is just fine with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalkanBoy Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Richard I guess if your attitude is 'anything for a dollar' then ethnic forever is just fine with you. Rivalries are a big part of what makes a league successful. Indeed rivalries also can bring out the worst in people. I've seen otherwise rational, compassionate, open-minded people yell the most offensive and stereotyped (and often funny) comments at players and fans of their rival during a big game. They generally don't really mean any malice, they are just doing it out of fun. Soccer, being a global sport, already has a lot of this sort of thing of course. In fact, the historical, ethnic and cultural differences between countries are a big part of what makes the World Cup such a fascinating event. This is particularly pronounced when there's been some relatively recent conflict. Countries who have fought wars fight again on the field and the fans go wild. The key difference here though is that the divisions are national. I wonder if we’d even be having this debate if say it was…oh…game 7 of the Stanley Cup Maple Leafs versus big bad other team or if it was the Olympic Ice Hockey. I don’t think we would, at least not us good ol’ Canadian Canadians. What worries me about all this hoopla around the Soccer Fans is the subtle racist undertones of the entire thing. Someone here comment about the brutal actions of the fanatical Serbian group.. I find it offensive to imply there is anything brutal going on at these games. . When Canada is in the Olympics and we’re on ice not grass it’s suddenly good Canada rah-rah. We should accept the fact that in the GTA they’re closing old ice arena and replacing them with soccer fields and cricket pitches, or that on most weekends people are playing soccer over the baseball diamonds in Christie Pits. I think maybe the best solution would be to field a Canadian team capable to get to the World Cup again. Then Canadian's would have a team to support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Sigh - again the confusion between genuine international competition and the deliberate promotion of ethnic differences by a purportedly professional domestic league. Quite a different situation. And as for the Toronto Maple Leafs versus the big bad other team - where is the official NHL ethnic emphasis in that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I don't believe anybody suggested there was anything 'brutal' going on at the CSL international league games. As I recall, the reference was to the painful memory of brutality that the very name 'Serbian White Eagles' evokes with some people, perhaps understandably especially considering recent European history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalkanBoy Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by soccerman2 They aren't fans.They are a fanatical group, (THE ULTRA-SERBS / www.ultra-serbs.com) which also have a club in London. Where ever the White Eagles Play, they will be there.A few weeks ago they removed a ton of vidio clips and pictures off their web site.I down loaded a few of them.They were brutal. Now all I have to do is find where I put them.When I do I'll post them. by soccerman2. who still will not respond! I would love to see them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by T5 Richard: there is a difference from the American based USL and MSL. Put it this way, "You ask an immigrated US citizen what he or she is and the answer is and will always be an AMERICAN." ..... Somebody maybe forgot to tell these Italian-American dudes:- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by BalkanBoy Then Canadian's would have a team to support. So currently the Canadian National Team isn't worth supporting, but a small-time semi-pro ethnic club in an irrelevant small time league is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalkanBoy Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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