CSL - Sept 7 - Tor Croatia v Serb White Eagles [R]

[Richard]

Well I do not believe the multicultural policy of the Canadian federal government was intended to foster ethnic ghetto-isation which is exactly what we have been discussing and is being encouraged and exploited by the CSL in a crass attempt to improve gate revenues. We are all Canadians first and foremost, no matter what our ethnic origin. I am a landed immigrant and a proud Canadian citizen without any need for a hyphen, and so are my children. I have never suggested anybody deny their heritage, far from it. But don't build a mini version of the 'old world' here in Canada and wallow in it, let alone import and promote old ethnic enmities which is precisely what we saw manifested at that Serbia-Croatia CSL game.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

My understanding is that Italia, Croatia and Panhellenic applied but were refused entry over the name issue. I suspect Dale Barnes and co thought the Blizzard were going to do much better than they actually did (i.e. on a par with the 86ers with 5000+ and given this was only a few summers after the NASL perhaps not unreasonably) and were of the opinion they could safely exclude the NSL clubs. The name issue was just an excuse in other words.

The Rockets were only needed to make up the numbers to 8 because there was no Montreal team initially. Another way of looking at things is that they maybe should have waited a year until they could get the Montreal situation sorted out because it was the inclusion of the Rockets as the second GTA team rather than Italia or Croatia that was the real slap in the face for the NSL clubs and their fanbase. It certainly didn't do the Blizzard any favours as it also seriously undermined the league's image in the GTA. A North York franchise playing at Esther Shiner stadium does not equate with bigtime sports for most people. Simple as that.

Is the ethnic club scene really just a southern Ontario thing? Top clubs in Manitoba AFAIA are all ethnic based like Lucania, Sons of Italy and Hellas etc:-

http://tinyurl.com/pvbnd

On the Fury for the long haul angle was it 1992 when they got the one time government handout to help them stay afloat from Gary Filmon's government or 1993 in the CNSL? My understanding has always been that they were on thin ice financially at the end of the CSL era (hence why the APSL wasn't an option for them maybe?) but I can't claim to be an expert on that. I remember that they did well at the gate one season thanks to a supermarket promotion that led to some 10,000+ crowds but that wasn't sustainable, unfortunately.

I doubt the name issue was 'just an excuse.' Ethnic names are not allowed in the USL, and generally are not allowed in most professional leagues in North America. It was widely acknowledged that the NSL clubs would be of benefit to the CSL, but as I stated earlier, the NSL clubs would not budge.

Yes, I realize some amateur clubs in Manitoba have ethnic names. But that is where it ends. They have zero fan support, and the players can be any nationality. There are probably more British kids on Sons of Italy and Lucania than Italians. The names are strictly generic, as not even Italians support Sons of Italy or Lucania. These clubs would drop their names in a wink if it meant a step up. In fact, Lucania were trying to gain entry into the PDL two years ago, and were going to be called the Winnipeg Sundogs (obviously the PDL does not allow ethnic based clubs. The USL learned years ago that this was divisive and counter-productive).

As for the Winnipeg Fury, there was no government bailout.

With Vancouver and the Blizzard bolting to the APSL, the Fury were basically left in the cold as the CSL ceased to exist. The budget in the APSL was significantly larger than CSL, and beyond the clubs means. It did not help that the Winnipeg Fury had all their professional contracts ruled void by the CSA, so the Fury could not sell players or get any compensation for their team that was loaded with talent destined for Europe.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Well I do not believe the multicultural policy of the Canadian federal government was intended to foster ethnic ghetto-isation....

Personally I do not see how clubs representing different communities participating together in the same league represents "ethnic ghetto-ization". It's different when an entire league is of only one cultural persuasion as happens sometimes. The reality of how it works in practice is that people from all sorts of different backgrounds get to know each other and players start to hop from club to club regardless of the crest on the shirt. Clubs want to win badly so good players from other backgrounds are signed. In the CSL era, Toronto Italia star players were Jamaican and Macedonian as well as Italian.

[Winnipeg Fury]

Negative PR for the CPSL:

Soccer fans damage Ivor Wynne

By Paul Morse

The Hamilton Spectator

(Sep 13, 2006)

Soccer fans wielding flares and fireworks damaged dozens of seats and singed the artificial turf at Ivor Wynne Stadium Monday night.

Hamilton is considering legal action against the Canadian Soccer League after the city and police plunged the stadium into darkness to clear fans of Serbian White Eagles of Toronto and Toronto Croatia.

Police helped clear the stands and separate "combative fans" outside Ivor Wynne, said Staff Sergeant Glenn Bullock. No charges were laid.

But the CSL says it doesn't understand the problem. Commissioner Cary Kaplan told The Spectator yesterday the league made the city aware flares could be used at the game.

Ivor Wynne officials stopped the game between the two international division CSL teams by turning off the lights after fans ignored public address warnings not to light flares and fireworks in the stands.

"We had no option, the fans were getting out of hand," said stadium manager Dan Adamson. "We decided with police that this had to stop."

Ivor Wynne's $1.5-million artificial turf was burned in three places and several dozen seats destroyed by unruly fans, he said. The damage estimate, so far, is about $2,000.

The flare flap comes two years after a licensed fireworks show following a Tiger-Cats game went awry and set the brand new artificial turf ablaze.

Bill Fenwick, director of Hamilton's culture and recreation department, said flares became a major safety concern Monday night for fans, the players and the stadium itself.

"Flares in the stands -- I don't care if it's accepted by (the CSL), it certainly isn't accepted by us."

Fenwick said he will now refer the issue to the city's legal department.

The Toronto-based Serbian and Croatian teams, using the better Ivor Wynne venue in a game played before 2,000 fans, are part of an international division started by the CSL this year to try to capture ethnic-based soccer passions. The division includes Italian, Portuguese and Caribbean-centred teams.

Games between Serbian and Croatian teams have degenerated into violence between fans in the past, but Kaplan said new security measures such as keeping respective fans on opposite sides of the field have kept things calm.

"Ivor Wynne officials were fully aware of the nature of the game between Serbia and Croatia and the risks of security, that people historically lit flares at those games," Kaplan said.

"We haven't been informed at Ivor Wynne or at the (Lamport) field in Toronto that there is a strict no-flare policy ... We didn't sense there was an overriding problem with the hand-held flares from the first game."

The CSL will beef up security at a third meeting between Serb and Croat teams in Toronto Friday.

pmorse@thespec.com 905-526-3434

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

Ethnic names are not allowed in the USL, and generally are not allowed in most professional leagues in North America.

....

As for the Winnipeg Fury, there was no government bailout....

The USL has only one team per city, however, and not several as could potentially have been the case with the GTA in the CSL. Not a perfect analogy but the NHL used an ethnic tinged rivalry between the Maple Leafs and the Canadiens to fuel the growth of their sport. MLS is now doing much the same with CD Chivas USA and the Galaxy.

I might wind up doing some checking on the bailout thing if I can find a relatively painless way to check old newspapers as I'm almost 100% positive that I remember Gary Filmon saying they would do it once (possibly only because of a precedent set with the Blue Bombers) but after that "no way Jose". As you say the finances were not there to move to the APSL even though it was much the same sort of setup as the early stages of the CSL in many ways only on a North American rather than just a Canadian basis. I've always been surprised by the failure of Winnipeg to ever once subsequently come up with an APSL or USL-D1 entry and I don't see how that can reasonably be pinned on problems related to ethnicity within Canadian soccer.

[Richard]

There is a reason why the USL will not permit ethnic names or ethnic based teams into their system. The CSL would do well to take a leaf out of the USL's book on this. I have less difficulty with this when it comes to amateur recreational sport but definitely it has no place whatsoever in any domestic professional league, or even one that pretends to be professional.

And BringBackTheBlizzard, I would hope that all the players you mention in your last post are CANADIANS first and foremost! I am an immigrant. I worked hard from the day I landed in Canada to make Canada my home and become assimilated into the mainstream, proudly took Canadian citizenship within days of fulfilling the residency requirement and do not consider myself still to be a national of my country of origin, and especially not a hyphenated Canadian. What's the point in moving to a new country if you insist on clinging to everything that represents the 'old country' or worse, try to change Canada into a clone of the 'old country'. If you do, why did you leave the 'old country'?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

...What's the point in moving to a new country if you insist on clinging to everything that represents the 'old country' or worse, try to change Canada into a clone of the 'old country'. If you do, why did you leave the 'old country'?

I feel no need whatsoever to respond directly to this sort of stuff that is quite simply not in tune with what Canadian multiculturalism is all about. If immigrants had all rigidly assimilated as you seem to want there would be no soccer worth mentioning in this country because everybody would have converted to football, baseball and hockey immediately after their arrival. Quite surreal really to read this sort of viewpoint on a Canadian soccer board.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

The USL has only one team per city, however, and not several as could potentially have been the case with the GTA in the CSL. Not a perfect analogy but the NHL used an ethnic tinged rivalry between the Maple Leafs and the Canadiens to fuel the growth of their sport. MLS is now doing much the same with CD Chivas USA and the Galaxy.

I might wind up doing some checking on the bailout thing if I can find a relatively painless way to check old newspapers as I'm almost 100% positive that I remember Gary Filmon saying they would do it once (possibly only because of a precedent set with the Blue Bombers) but after that "no way Jose".

Filmon bailed out a few of the directors, but not the club.

I would not call the Maple Leafs or Canadiens ethnic. What is ethnic about the Galaxy ? It's an english word.

Chivas is ethnic, but it is owned by Chivas of Mexico, so it is slightly different.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

Negative PR for the CPSL:

Soccer fans damage Ivor Wynne

By Paul Morse

The Hamilton Spectator

(Sep 13, 2006)

Soccer fans wielding flares and fireworks damaged dozens of seats and singed the artificial turf at Ivor Wynne Stadium Monday night.

Hamilton is considering legal action against the Canadian Soccer League after the city and police plunged the stadium into darkness to clear fans of Serbian White Eagles of Toronto and Toronto Croatia.

Police helped clear the stands and separate "combative fans" outside Ivor Wynne, said Staff Sergeant Glenn Bullock. No charges were laid.

But the CSL says it doesn't understand the problem. Commissioner Cary Kaplan told The Spectator yesterday the league made the city aware flares could be used at the game.

Ivor Wynne officials stopped the game between the two international division CSL teams by turning off the lights after fans ignored public address warnings not to light flares and fireworks in the stands.

"We had no option, the fans were getting out of hand," said stadium manager Dan Adamson. "We decided with police that this had to stop."

Ivor Wynne's $1.5-million artificial turf was burned in three places and several dozen seats destroyed by unruly fans, he said. The damage estimate, so far, is about $2,000.

The flare flap comes two years after a licensed fireworks show following a Tiger-Cats game went awry and set the brand new artificial turf ablaze.

Bill Fenwick, director of Hamilton's culture and recreation department, said flares became a major safety concern Monday night for fans, the players and the stadium itself.

"Flares in the stands -- I don't care if it's accepted by (the CSL), it certainly isn't accepted by us."

Fenwick said he will now refer the issue to the city's legal department.

The Toronto-based Serbian and Croatian teams, using the better Ivor Wynne venue in a game played before 2,000 fans, are part of an international division started by the CSL this year to try to capture ethnic-based soccer passions. The division includes Italian, Portuguese and Caribbean-centred teams.

Games between Serbian and Croatian teams have degenerated into violence between fans in the past, but Kaplan said new security measures such as keeping respective fans on opposite sides of the field have kept things calm.

"Ivor Wynne officials were fully aware of the nature of the game between Serbia and Croatia and the risks of security, that people historically lit flares at those games," Kaplan said.

"We haven't been informed at Ivor Wynne or at the (Lamport) field in Toronto that there is a strict no-flare policy ... We didn't sense there was an overriding problem with the hand-held flares from the first game."

The CSL will beef up security at a third meeting between Serb and Croat teams in Toronto Friday.

pmorse@thespec.com 905-526-3434

One Word: OUCH!!!!

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

I feel no need whatsoever to respond directly to this sort of stuff that is quite simply not in tune with what Canadian multiculturalism is all about. If immigrants had all rigidly assimilated as you seem to want there would be no soccer worth mentioning in this country because everybody would have converted to football, baseball and hockey immediately after their arrival. Quite surreal really to read this sort of viewpoint on a Canadian soccer board.

Soccer long existed in Canada before "multiculturalism". Surprised that so many people rather belive that term.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleGSoccer long existed in Canada before "multiculturalism". Surprised that so many people rather belive that term.

Which is why I included the words "worth mentioning". Soccer lost out the battle for supremacy with baseball and Canadian football and only started to gain strength again post-WWII because of immigration.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

I would not call the Maple Leafs or Canadiens ethnic. What is ethnic about the Galaxy ? It's an english word.

Chivas is ethnic, but it is owned by Chivas of Mexico, so it is slightly different.

Everybody is ethnic or has cultural affiliations on some sort of level just as everybody who can speak has an accent. The Maple Leafs vs Canadiens rivalry was fueled by the traditional anglophone vs francophone tensions within Canadian society. The Chivas vs Galaxy "superclassico" may be fueled in future by the cultural politics that will surround the emerging Hispanic majority in California and across the US southwest into Texas.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

I feel no need whatsoever to respond directly to this sort of stuff that is quite simply not in tune with what Canadian multiculturalism is all about. If immigrants had all rigidly assimilated as you seem to want there would be no soccer worth mentioning in this country because everybody would have converted to football, baseball and hockey immediately after their arrival. Quite surreal really to read this sort of viewpoint on a Canadian soccer board.

What a load of crap. I grew up in a cricket/rugby mad country yet my son played soccer for Canada.

[Richard]

OUCH!!!! to say the least - was this in Canada that these two teams were playing?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

What a load of crap. I grew up in a cricket/rugby mad country yet my son played soccer for Canada.

Good for you where your son is concerned and I'm sure you are quite rightly very proud of him but I honestly fail to see the relevance that has to anything that has been discussed. The way I see it if it hadn't been for post-WWII immigrants like myself who failed to rigidly assimilate where sporting preferences are concerned but stuck instead to the sport they grew up with, soccer would be about as influential as Australian rules football or camogie is in this country today. I am completely unapologetic about wanting to help change Canada if only in some small way so that it is slightly more like the country I was born in by purchasing a Toronto FC season ticket for the 2007 season as opposed to an Argos or Blue Jays one and I hope that franchise will be a huge success and will absolutely infuriate people like Dave Perkins, Steve Simmons and Bob McCoun every bit as much as you seem to get worked up over this ethnic teams thing.

[Richard]

My experience is no less relevant than yours, why would you discount it as such? Inability to assimilate is nobody's fault but your own.

[Regs]

Richard, as a director of the Pacific Coast league, don't you think it is a little hypocritical to be taking the position you are against the CSL when the PCSL was so successful in the past through ethnic teams and especially since the PCSL has the New Westminster Khalsa as a member?

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

If the 'ethnics' invested anything like the same amount of effort and commitment in working with and developing 'mainstream' soccer as they do their petty, narrow little old world fancies then Canadian soccer would truly benefit. As it is they are holding it back. I will have no truck with these immigrants who create little pockets of the old country here in Canada in which to wallow. This is CANADA, not Scotland, Croatia, Serbia, Italy, India or China for pity's sake. Sure, appreciate your heritage but you're in CANADA now and I hope striving to become CANADIAN.

Richard,

I too am a landed immigrant, am a proud Canadian and (like to think that I) contribute to the development of soccer even if it is through a crappy 4th Division team in a city league. However, from the time I arrived in Canada at 10 years old, not once was I told I'd have to totally assimilate myself to Canadian culture and forget that I am Portuguese. Proud to be Portuguese. I still listen to Portuguese music, eat Portuguese food, follow the same Portuguese teams I did from when I was a kid.

Are you telling me I can't do that? Are you telling me I'm not allowed to get together with other Portuguese people to play soccer? Or go to a Portuguese restaurant? Or Portuguese Church? Take your head out of your a**. For argument's sake though, let's say I want to strive to be as CANADIAN as you (which according to you, I'm not)what steps do I need to take? Please enlighten me....

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Serbs are the most uptight people when it comes to their nationality. During the Kosovo War, they would have no problem picking fights and launching firebombs at the US Consulate. Others are far more pacifist in protests compared to Serbs.

Serbs now portray themsleves as the "historically abused".

Wow, nice take on the Serbs....can you do the Mexicans, the Portuguese and the French?

You can make a case for almost every nationality being 'historically abused' including the Serbs. This doesn't mean that you can discount their claims or bring in what happened in a civil war to justify your argument. Especially when you only attack one side. What? The Croats never did anything bad? Just the Serbs?

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

That's becasue people have grown past the ethnic label and you don't need to be a genius to see that. Those that supported the NSL teams are either dead or have moved on. Their children aren't as likely to identify by nationality. Carribean Stars have proven to be a disaster as has Portugese Supra.

People have grown past the ethnic label? Really? I guess that's why they dew 2,000 people to the SWE - TC game...

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

3) Gimmicks

People do focus on the sports moms and dads because they know they can embrace the sport. The Trappers used to do that in baseball and it paid off for them with a large following. The Cracker-Cats didn't and are paying the price in attendance.

You wouldn't notice that becasue they promote to the sport community as a whole.

First, I think that the reason the Cracker-Cats draw less than the Trappers is related to the quality of the League they play in rather than the marketing efforts.

Second, the last two attempts at pro soccer in Edmonton failed partly because they relied on the sports moms and dads. They are not a reliable demographic. They'll show up once in a while, but they've got other commitments to take care of that have a far higher priority than watching pro or semi pro soccer.

The Rush have gone after the demographic with the most disposable income, the most time on their hands and it paid off for them. They had a crappy year on the field, but were a hit off it. That's what soccer needs to do.

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Cheeleaders aren't cheap and the club would either have to pay for their cost or find sponsors for it.

Nothing is cheap when it comes to running a pro franchise, but if you don't spend money in marketing the product, noone's going to take notice. The Rush cheerleaders were everywhere this Summer promoting the team and that's what ticket selling is all about - promotion, promotion, promotion. You might prefer paying for a teenage kid in a mascot suit running around attracting kids, but I'd rather pay for 3-5 cheerleaders jumping up and down attracting 18-31 year old males that will actually buy tickets.

[CSL Commissioner]

THE CSL POSITION:

1. Very nice to see 117 posts regarding this topic - the discussion is healthy.

2. The CSL's format of an integration of 'national' teams (London, Windsor, Laval, Oakville, etc...) and 'international' teams (Italy, Serbia, Portugal, Croatia, Caribbean), to us combines the best of 'two worlds' and so far has been quite successful.

3. In cities like London, Hamilton, Kitchener, Kingston, etc... the cities have a strong iternal identity (not the case in Vaughan, York, and Scarborough) as a result the traditional - one team, one town philosophy works - and we continue to employ it.

4. In Toronto, of which I have lived for 30 years, the multiculturalism is tremendous. It is vibrant, and mass. There are 400,000 Italians, 300,000 Portuguese, and 300,000 Chinese alone in the city - let alone Greek, Serbian, Polish, Iranian, etc....

5. During the World Cup, people proudly drive with international flags on their cars - why should they not have a team in the city supporting that national identity.

6. It only works for soccer (because of the world penetration), and may only work in Toronto (at least for now). Toronto is different that London, or Kitchener or Vancouver or Winnipeg. Not better, different.

7. Pro soccer in Toronto has failed numerous times in Toronto (indoor and outdoor). Credit to MLSE and the Lynx for fighting the battle - and we fully support them, but would like to stay out of the fray in Toronto.

8. The international teams have played in about 80 games so far - no incidents (aside from Serbian-Croatia) no injuries, no arrests, but increased attendance.

9. The league's average attendance is double if not triple this year - in large part because of the international flavour - now 300-500 fans/game is not great - but it moving in the right direction.

10. As to Serbia-Croatia, we had 4,000 fans at two games, we are very happy with that.

11. However, the security needs to be tightened. The damage to Ivor Wynne is not acceptable. Flares at games will be banned for the 3rd Serbia Croatia game. Security will be increased significantly.

12. Further, the language used is unacceptable. Racial slurs have to be eliminated. Families must be able to come to all our games - we are not there yet - but the potential is there.

13. We think the model for soccer in Canada that we are empoying is right one. A national league like the old CSL will not work (travel costs alone will kill it); and an entirely ethnic league (like the old NSL or the Puma International League) will not work, as it will have decreased support and interest in many ciites. But the model that we are currently employing: combining international and natioanl teams, while providing 'geographic' considerations as a key factor to consider prior to expansion - is healthy.

14. Richard, you have now sent more than 30 emails on this forum - regarding the CSL - and they are consistently negative and many are inappropriate and condensending. I am not sure where the venom derives, but it seems as those many of the comments are without merit. As a suggestion, as grows the CSL (and the PCSL, USL teams in Canada, MLSE, etc...) so grows soccer in Canada.

Thanks for reading (this makes 118 posts)

Cary Kaplan

Commissioner

CSL

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Regs

Richard, as a director of the Pacific Coast league, don't you think it is a little hypocritical to be taking the position you are against the CSL when the PCSL was so successful in the past through ethnic teams and especially since the PCSL has the New Westminster Khalsa as a member?

Not at all. There is no comparison between the PCSL and the CSL's 'International Division' whose primary objective is to exploit ethnic rivalries in order to increase gate revenues. The modern PCSL has a policy of avoiding overtly ethnic based teams because of bad experiences in the past. Khalsa Sporting Club is an exception, and the only exception, amongst the 20 or so teams in the PCSL.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by River City

Richard,

I too am a landed immigrant, am a proud Canadian and (like to think that I) contribute to the development of soccer even if it is through a crappy 4th Division team in a city league. However, from the time I arrived in Canada at 10 years old, not once was I told I'd have to totally assimilate myself to Canadian culture and forget that I am Portuguese. Proud to be Portuguese. I still listen to Portuguese music, eat Portuguese food, follow the same Portuguese teams I did from when I was a kid.

Are you telling me I can't do that? Are you telling me I'm not allowed to get together with other Portuguese people to play soccer? Or go to a Portuguese restaurant? Or Portuguese Church? Take your head out of your a**. For argument's sake though, let's say I want to strive to be as CANADIAN as you (which according to you, I'm not)what steps do I need to take? Please enlighten me....

Predictably somebody has taken my argument and gone to the extreme. You can do what you like with your private life, you can live a Portuguese existence in Canada and regard yourself as a hyphenated Canadian if that's your wish. It's not how I chose to live but then that's my affair and I am as entitled to express my opinions as you are.

I have no problem with you cherishing your heritage and have said so in this thread more than once.

My arguments pertain to the CSL exploiting ethnic rivalries to increase gate revenues. There is no place for that in a domestic 'professional' league in my opinion. Leave that to the real international game.

What people chose to do in amateur recreational leagues I might not agree with but that is entirely their own business.

[Richard]

Mr. Commissioner, thank you for confirming that the CSL deliberately set out to exploit inter-ethnic rivalries with the creation of the International Division and that you measure the success of the venture through gate receipts. In my opinion this is crass and corrosive to the fabric of Canadian society, but that's merely my opinion. No doubt others will disagree.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Khalsa Sporting Club is an exception, and the only exception, amongst the 20 or so teams in the PCSL.

Interesting that you don't view a team called the Seattle Hibernian & Caledonian Saints as being an ethnic based club.

http://www.saintssoccer.com/index2.htm

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Interesting that you don't view a team called the Seattle Hibernian & Caledonian Saints as being an ethnic based club.

http://www.saintssoccer.com/index2.htm

I'm guessing that the players and fans aren't 90%+ Scottish or Irish.