CSL - Sept 7 - Tor Croatia v Serb White Eagles [R]

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

You should take a page out of you own book and desist from posting on Usector about the sectarian leanings of Celtic supporters. You should stop focussing on 'the actions of a few' since you know that most Celtic fans are actually able to refrain from that sort of behavior.

A non-sequitur given that I have never called for Celtic as a club to be denied their right to exist or for Celtic supporters to be driven from said forum because of the actions of a few. What I have the biggest problem with is not what happens in the heat of the moment at a soccer game but when it starts to spill over into real life.

[soccerman2]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by soccerman2

Monday, September 11

There was one game in the CSL tonight:

Serbian White Eagles 3, Toronto Croatia 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE-Were week 18 summary doesn't say much about the actions of the "fanactical groups" in the stands how come? Or White Eagle domination one

the field?

QUOTE-He normally just gives the scorelines. It is another guy who does the reports and I'm almost certain I've read his report for Monday's game in another thread on

here.

THIS WHOLE THREAD IS THE REASON I KEEP AWAY FROM THE SUMMARY'S

[BalkanBoy]

Earlier in the tread you made a comment about some brutal material that you downloaded from www.ultra-serbs.com that had been taken off the website. Did you find any of that?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

...and thanks to the continued promotion of that tribalism WITHIN CANADA, the CSL is turning off as many people as they attract. Probably more. Its interesting to note that the Australian league has taken off and gained new fans and stature now that they have abandoned the ethnic-based teams.

Without the ethnic based clubs from the state leagues and the old NSL soccer in Australia would never have reached the position to even attempt the new A League which is really their equivalent of MLS. The ethnic clubs still exist as the second tier playing a winter season at the state level (i.e their equivalent of the C[P]SL) while the A League plays a summer season. Worth noting that the Queensland Roar is based on an old ethnic Dutch club (lot of Dutch people moved to Brisbane from the old Dutch East Indies) and play in orange for that reason while the name is a reference to the lion on the Dutch national team jersey.

[River City]

I think that the ethnic element in the CSL was a brilliant marketing move. Attendance has increased, and so has interest in the league.

While I have doubts over the longterm benefits of having ethnic teams, it is a useful tool at this point in the CSL's development and should be embraced. After all, it's not like 'the minivan, soccer mom demographic' was lining up for tickets....

I think ultimately, the way to market soccer in Canada will be in a Lacrosse-style campaign, targetting the 14-31 male demographic. You may not like it, but it works.

[Richard]

Well, enjoy your CSL 'international division' - I don't support the concept and will have nothing to do with it.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg FuryWell unfortunetly it was a zero sum game for both the CSL and NSL. If the NSL has shown any flexibility, the CSL could still be operating today.

You are moving the goalposts a bit given that I was talking about the NASL/MLS and not the CSL with the zero sum game stuff. My view on this is that it takes two to tango. There was inflexibility on both sides because one lot probably thought they were instantly going to blow the other lot out of the water thanks to their TSN contract, while the other lot probably thought that without them the CSL would go the way of the first CPSL and fold within a season. The real problem IMO was that it didn't get sorted out after the first couple of seasons when neither of those scenarios unfolded. Having listened to him ranting and raving on the FAN, the personality of Dale Barnes was almost certainly as big a problem in that equation as that of Rocco LoFranco.

Beyond that I'm skeptical that the CSL was really viable in the long term outside the Windsor Quebec corridor because only the 86ers drew crowds consistently (I'll concede the Fury did sporadically) that could sustain regular air travel and that hasn't changed in the USL era as witnessed by the failure of franchises in Calgary and Edmonton.

The reality of the situation IMO is that the ethnic club scene is not going to go away because new arrivals to this country are always going to form their own social and sports clubs so given the reality that recent immigrants are the most likely group to support pro level soccer either it gets harnessed in a way that builds the sport like they did in Australia or you get the 1998 CPSL scenario where it is actively suppressed with the result that a lot of core soccer people feel deeply alienated from the structure that is being pushed by the powers that be and just ignore it for the most part.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by River City

I think that the ethnic element in the CSL was a brilliant marketing move. Attendance has increased, and so has interest in the league.

The ony bright spot has been White Eagles because they prey on Serbian nationalist sentiment. Of course, the antics of their supporters (racist chnats, bottle throwing, flag burning) only adds onto the baggage of the CSL.

quote:Originally posted by River City

While I have doubts over the longterm benefits of having ethnic teams, it is a useful tool at this point in the CSL's development and should be embraced. After all, it's not like 'the minivan, soccer mom demographic' was lining up for tickets.

You have to sell a product that people will turn up for. A bunch of ethnic teams doesn't work since the growing brnach of soccer in Canada has nothing to do with these ethnic groups.

quote:Originally posted by River City

I think ultimately, the way to market soccer in Canada will be in a Lacrosse-style campaign, targetting the 14-31 male demographic. You may not like it, but it works.

Shot clocks, cheerleaders, and loud music playing?

[River City]

Easy DoyleG...

1) Serbs

You can't tarnish the whole Serbian community by the antics of a few, especially when you just read about them on this Forum. I was born in Portugal, came to Toronto when I was 10 (go Leafs, go) and recognize the importance that established ethnic communities have in helping newcomers adapt to Canadian life.

I'm friends with Serbs, Croats and Muslims of all sorts of religious backgrounds and they are no different than anyone else, Italians, Portuguese and 5th generation Anglo-saxon Canadians included.

2)Sell Product

Take away the ethnic element from the CSL and they would have the same attendance as last year. They have embraced it and incorporated it into the 'system'. This most likely would not work in Edmonton, but it's the way to go in Southern Ontario. And just like it would be dumb to say that we need to follow that model in Edmonton in order to grow the game, it's also dumb to say that the CSL shouldn't do it because it doens't work here.

3) Gimmicks

As stated previously, soccer moms weren't lining up in droves to watch the games, and I'm willing to bet that soccer moms won't ever be lining up to watch pro or semi-pro soccer unless they have a kid playing. You can keep focusing your marketing on them, but it ain't gonna work.

I'm not referring specifically to gimmicks, but if cheerleaders will bring in 50 young males for each and every game, then hire cheerleaders.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

You have to sell a product that people will turn up for. A bunch of ethnic teams doesn't work since the growing brnach of soccer in Canada has nothing to do with these ethnic groups.

I have to agree with DoyleG here.

First time for everything i guess lol.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

A non-sequitur given that I have never called for Celtic as a club to be denied their right to exist or for Celtic supporters to be driven from said forum because of the actions of a few.

That is besides the point, and not at all what we are talking about here. So to get back on topic, since you were willing to excuse what happened on Sept 7 and other dates on the grounds that they are the actions of a few, you should have extended that courtesy to the many good fans of Celtic. But you didnt. That is hypocrisy.

[BalkanBoy]

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

That is besides the point, and not at all what we are talking about here. So to get back on topic, since you were willing to excuse what happened on Sept 7 and other dates on the grounds that they are the actions of a few, you should have extended that courtesy to the many good fans of Celtic. But you didnt. That is hypocrisy.

Your latest message is simply nonsensical from my perspective. Nowhere in what I have written have I excused racist behavior at any soccer game. Not a lot of point pursuing this further if you are unable to grasp or concede that. The way I look at the world is that each individual is responsible for their own actions at the end of the day. I reject the concept of collective guilt. Some of the best people I've ever met are the old school sort of Celtic supporters who are devout RCs and very much follow the ten commandments, go to mass and confession etc. Never been called a "hun" by any of them.

[BalkanBoy]

I know English is my second language but no one is being clear on what really happened @ the game and why this is bad for CPSL? The above alleged incidents are possible and I know first hand some happened, but what really aggravate’s me is the facts that because the Ultra Serbs and the White Eagles have taken the league by storm lets blame them for it. @ The first match the "Ultra Serbs" began singing and chanting normal supporter songs, until they were aggravated by racial slurs by the Croatian supporters. What all of this escalated too was a pretty entertaining crowd. Even though the team I cheer for lost, my friends and I sang them off the field with "sampioni, sampioni" (champions, champions) chat. Thinking to myself we will fight another day. Game 2, before the game even started the Croatian fan began with some pretty harsh cheers we followed suite (its part of the game) in the end the flares which were thrown on the field came from the Croatia Toronto side because the PA announcer warned if another flare was to be visible the game would be cancelled. So the 300 some Croatian fans had could not control their emotions when they were losing a hard fought game, they sparked some flares causing the lights to be turned out, and then threw them on the pitch. While the 1500 plus Serbian fans could have just as easily followed their actions but we didn’t! In the end we are somehow to blame… this thread has done everything but start another air assault against my Serbian people, the White Eagles, their fans and my homeland

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

You are moving the goalposts a bit given that I was talking about the NASL/MLS and not the CSL with the zero sum game stuff. My view on this is that it takes two to tango. There was inflexibility on both sides because one lot probably thought they were instantly going to blow the other lot out of the water thanks to their TSN contract, while the other lot probably thought that without them the CSL would go the way of the first CPSL and fold within a season. The real problem IMO was that it didn't get sorted out after the first couple of seasons when neither of those scenarios unfolded. Having listened to him ranting and raving on the FAN, the personality of Dale Barnes was almost certainly as big a problem in that equation as that of Rocco LoFranco.

Beyond that I'm skeptical that the CSL was really viable in the long term outside the Windsor Quebec corridor because only the Whitecaps drew crowds consistently that could sustain regular air travel and that hasn't changed in the USL era.

The reality of the situation IMO is that the ethnic club scene is not going to go away because new arrivals to this country are always going to form their own social and sports clubs so given the reality that recent immigrants are the most likely group to support pro level soccer either it gets harnessed in a way that builds the sport like they did in Australia or you get the 1998 CPSL scenario where it is actively suppressed with the result that a lot of core soccer people feel deeply alienated from the structure that is being pushed by the powers that be and just ignore it for the most part.

You may be right that something should have been done regarding a merger between the CSL & NSL in the first couple of years. Preferably before they started in 1987. But the fact is that the CSL did make every attempt to include these clubs. I remember the management of the Winnipeg Fury (who were Italian) tried numerous times with Toronto Italia. They were dumbfounded how irrational these NSL clubs were.

As for 'ethnic clubs always existing' they only exist in the form of Toronto Croatia and Serbian White Eagles in Southern Ontario. This is not a national normality. So this may be the norm in southern Ontario/Toronto, but it is does not exist in the rest of Canada. No doubt this is part of our ongoing frustration.

And regarding nobody in the CSL survivng outside of 'Windsor-Quebec corridor except the Whitecaps,' the Winnipeg Fury had the second highest attendance in the CSL, not far off Vancouver's. They were definetly in for the longhaul (CSL), particularly after winning the championship in 92.

Which league survivng would have been in Canada's best interest ? The CSL, a trully national league who's mandate was to develop Canadian talent, or the NSL, an Ontario based ethnic-league that viewed Canadian soccer with scorn, and their main objective was to bring big name players from the old country. I will take the CSL any day.

It was a zero-sum game then, and it continues today.

Would the TO Lynx be stronger both in terms of resources and support if the Serbian White Eagles merged and threw their support behind the Lynx ? Without question.

Would this merged entity be stronger if TO Croatia joined them both in terms of support and resources. Without question.

Would the TO Lynx then be able to survive beside TOFC, to provide a viable second tier that continues to develop Canadian talent ? Without question.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

My understanding is that Italia, Croatia and Panhellenic applied but were refused entry over the name issue. I suspect Dale Barnes and co thought the Blizzard were going to do much better than they actually did (i.e. on a par with the 86ers with 5000+ and given this was only a few summers after the NASL perhaps not unreasonably) and were of the opinion they could safely exclude the NSL clubs. The name issue was just an excuse in other words.

The Rockets were only needed to make up the numbers to 8 because there was no Montreal team initially. Another way of looking at things is that they maybe should have waited a year until they could get the Montreal situation sorted out because it was the inclusion of the Rockets as the second GTA team rather than Italia or Croatia that was the real slap in the face for the NSL clubs and their fanbase. It certainly didn't do the Blizzard any favours as it also seriously undermined the league's image in the GTA. A North York franchise playing at Esther Shiner stadium does not equate with bigtime sports for most people. Simple as that.

Is the ethnic club scene really just a southern Ontario thing? Top clubs in Manitoba AFAIA are all ethnic based like Lucania, Sons of Italy and Hellas etc:-

http://tinyurl.com/pvbnd

On the Fury for the long haul angle was it 1992 when they got the one time government handout to help them stay afloat from Gary Filmon's government or 1993 in the CNSL? My understanding has always been that they were on thin ice financially at the end of the CSL era (hence why the APSL wasn't an option for them maybe?) but I can't claim to be an expert on that. I remember that they did well at the gate one season thanks to a supermarket promotion that led to some 10,000+ crowds but that wasn't sustainable, unfortunately.

[Regs]

quote:As for 'ethnic clubs always existing' they only exist in the form of Toronto Croatia and Serbian White Eagles in Southern Ontario. This is not a national normality. So this may be the norm in southern Ontario/Toronto, but it is does not exist in the rest of Canada.

Head meet sand.

[BalkanBoy]

If this league wants to get off page 12 of the sports section, where all you see are the standings. They have to create publicity, and no better then to bring back The Serbian White Eagles.

http://www.sover.net/~spectrum/cnsl.html

check out the long list of former ethnic teams.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by River City

1) Serbs

You can't tarnish the whole Serbian community by the antics of a few, especially when you just read about them on this Forum. I was born in Portugal, came to Toronto when I was 10 (go Leafs, go) and recognize the importance that established ethnic communities have in helping newcomers adapt to Canadian life.

I'm friends with Serbs, Croats and Muslims of all sorts of religious backgrounds and they are no different than anyone else, Italians, Portuguese and 5th generation Anglo-saxon Canadians included.

Serbs are the most uptight people when it comes to their nationality. During the Kosovo War, they would have no problem picking fights and launching firebombs at the US Consulate. Others are far more pacifist in protests compared to Serbs.

Serbs now portray themsleves as the "historically abused".

quote:Originally posted by River City

2)Sell Product

Take away the ethnic element from the CSL and they would have the same attendance as last year. They have embraced it and incorporated it into the 'system'. This most likely would not work in Edmonton, but it's the way to go in Southern Ontario. And just like it would be dumb to say that we need to follow that model in Edmonton in order to grow the game, it's also dumb to say that the CSL shouldn't do it because it doens't work here.

That's becasue people have grown past the ethnic label and you don't need to be a genius to see that. Those that supported the NSL teams are either dead or have moved on. Their children aren't as likely to identify by nationality. Carribean Stars have proven to be a disaster as has Portugese Supra.

quote:Originally posted by River City

3) Gimmicks

As stated previously, soccer moms weren't lining up in droves to watch the games, and I'm willing to bet that soccer moms won't ever be lining up to watch pro or semi-pro soccer unless they have a kid playing. You can keep focusing your marketing on them, but it ain't gonna work.

People do focus on the sports moms and dads because they know they can embrace the sport. The Trappers used to do that in baseball and it paid off for them with a large following. The Cracker-Cats didn't and are paying the price in attendance.

You wouldn't notice that becasue they promote to the sport community as a whole.

quote:Originally posted by River City

I'm not referring specifically to gimmicks, but if cheerleaders will bring in 50 young males for each and every game, then hire cheerleaders.

Cheeleaders aren't cheap and the club would either have to pay for their cost or find sponsors for it.

[Richard]

Yeah, then you appeal to the same class of people who go to hockey games just for the fights.

[london_ontario_soccer_fan]

Ethnic clubs are a good thing for the game in this country. In many cases they are far superior to the local so-called inclusive clubs in their respective cities. You only have to look at the pathetic London City who were defeated in cup play this year by London AEK. Even they are no match for the London Portugese. Two ethnic clubs beating Harry Gauss's pet project. Of course his team makes it to the final round of the "Open" Cup. I wouldn't expect any less.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I suspect the Open Cup has been a bit of an eyeopener for some people in that regard.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by london_ontario_soccer_fan

Ethnic clubs are a good thing for the game in this country. In many cases they are far superior to the local so-called inclusive clubs in their respective cities. You only have to look at the pathetic London City who were defeated in cup play this year by London AEK. Even they are no match for the London Portugese. Two ethnic clubs beating Harry Gauss's pet project. Of course his team makes it to the final round of the "Open" Cup. I wouldn't expect any less.

Didn't realize that names like Noel Cunningham, Iain Tompson, and Paul Arnold were considered Greek by London AEK standards.

Edmonton Green & Gold and Calgary Dinos would certainly beat up on London City.

[Richard]

If the 'ethnics' invested anything like the same amount of effort and commitment in working with and developing 'mainstream' soccer as they do their petty, narrow little old world fancies then Canadian soccer would truly benefit. As it is they are holding it back. I will have no truck with these immigrants who create little pockets of the old country here in Canada in which to wallow. This is CANADA, not Scotland, Croatia, Serbia, Italy, India or China for pity's sake. Sure, appreciate your heritage but you're in CANADA now and I hope striving to become CANADIAN.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

If the 'ethnics' invested anything like the same amount of effort and commitment in working with and developing 'mainstream' soccer as they do their petty, narrow little old world fancies then Canadian soccer would truly benefit. As it is they are holding it back. I will have no truck with these immigrants who create little pockets of the old country here in Canada in which to wallow. This is CANADA, not Scotland, Croatia, Serbia, Italy, India or China for pity's sake. Sure, appreciate your heritage but you're in CANADA now and I hope striving to become CANADIAN.

That isn't the official attitude of the Canadian state towards the question of immigration. Canada promotes a policy of multiculturalism and there is no requirement to forget where you came from as part of the citizenship oath. It is precisely because this is Canada and because of the tolerant and inclusive nature of modern Canadian identity that clubs like the Serbian White Eagles should be tolerated within mainstream league structures IMO. It is also precisely because this is Canada (and not the former Yugoslavia) that it should be possible for a Toronto Croatia vs Serbian White Eagles game to be staged without any significant problems. You came here to get away from the maniacs and to provide a better life for your kids so keep it sensible is all that should need to be said.