CSL - Sept 7 - Tor Croatia v Serb White Eagles [R]

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

I am in Canada and my experience is based on playing soccer in southern Ontario. To try to link ethnic soccer clubs to racism is just disgusting. Racism is a problem that permeates all of Canadian society. If anything I would have thought an environment that promotes multiculturalism would help to alleviate it.

Is that why the league felt it needed an increased police presence at the SWE v. Croatia match?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Is that why the league felt it needed an increased police presence at the SWE v. Croatia match?

You know perfectly well Croats and Serbs are the same race.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

You know perfectly well Croats and Serbs are the same race.

And you're ignoring the bigger issue. The racism against Croatia's black players was a by-product of the parochialism promoted by the league.

Fostering an environment that highlights differences between people - be they nationalistic, ethnic, or whatever - only alleviates the possibility of poor behaviour.

Note that White Eagles fans were spotted burning a Croatian flag at the Sept. 7 match, as well.

[Richard]

Throwing burning flares onto a FieldTurf pitch was just plain criminal vandalism committed by thugs.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

And you're ignoring the bigger issue. The racism against Croatia's black players was a by-product of the parochialism promoted by the league.....

Total non-sequitur IMO. Should international tournaments like the World Cup be closed down as well because they focus on dividing people on the basis of nationality? Soccer loyalties have always been driven by tribalism. That's why people care who wins.

[RS]

Your responses are incredibly hypocritical given your continued insistence on U-Sector that you left Scotland to get away from such crap, yet you promote it here within the CSL.

I suppose burning a Croatian flag and making monkey chants at black players is ok in your books, but calling someone a Hun is not.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Throwing burning flares onto a FieldTurf pitch was just plain criminal vandalism committed by thugs.

And? What about the vast majority of the crowd who are decent law abiding citizens?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

I suppose burning a Croatian flag and making monkey chants at black players is ok in your books, but calling someone a Hun is not.

As stated in the previous post what about the vast majority of decent people who didn't burn flags and make monkey noises (if indeed the latter actually happened)? You focus on the actions of a few to pursue an agenda you have when the reality is most people are actually able to refrain from that sort of behaviour. It is a good thing for the CPSL that crowds of 2000 are happening again in semi-pro games in southern Ontario. Having dealt with lots of ex-Yugoslavs through soccer they are usually able to keep things relatively sane on this side of the Atlantic. They are not a bunch of crazed irrational lunatics as some on here are depicting them.

[RS]

I honestly don't care what the CSL does to promote its product, as I think playing up the ethnic ties will hold it back from ever taking hold as a viable pan-Canadian league (which is the CSL's objective).

The NSL proved that ethnic-themed clubs can only take a league so far, and I'm incredibly thankful that Toronto FC didn't go that route ('Inter' being an obvious pandering to Italians in the area).

As a fan of soccer, I would not be more inclined to watch a team with ties to my parents heritage, but then I'm not part of what one would consider a large ethnic immigrant group.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

The NSL proved that ethnic-themed clubs can only take a league so far, and I'm incredibly thankful that Toronto FC didn't go that route ('Inter' being an obvious pandering to Italians in the area).

There is a niche for a vibrant semi-pro regional league like the 70s and early 80s NSL alongside a team like the Blizzard playing at a fully pro level in a North American context IMO. If there is only one team in a city an ethnic leaning name is probably not a good move but if there are several in a lower tier of the sport that is never going to feature prominently in the mainstream media anyway I don't see a problem.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

There is a niche for a vibrant semi-pro regional league like the 70s and early 80s NSL alongside a team like the Blizzard playing at a fully pro level in a North American context IMO. If there is only one team in a city an ethnic leaning name is probably not a good move but if there are several in a lower tier of the sport that is never going to feature prominently in the mainstream media anyway I don't see a problem.

I wonder what the Toronto Blizzard would have thought of that statement when they still existed.

Toronto Italia of the NSL used to get similar crowds to the Toronto Blizzard of the NASL, and I can tell you that their presence definelty hurt the Blizzard and North York Rockets, on the field and at the gate. The NSL clubs never saw themselves as 'lower tier.'

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

...and I can tell you that their presence definelty hurt the Blizzard and North York Rockets, on the field and at the gate. The NSL clubs never saw themselves as 'lower tier.'

Probably because they weren't relative to the original CSL which beyond the Whitecaps was a bit of a farce for the most part. There was a huge difference between the CSL and the NASL in terms of playing standards. IMO it was borderline insane for the CSL to proceed without including Italia and Croatia (regardless of what they wanted to call themselves) and to continue with that situation even after it was obvious that the Blizzard and Rockets were struggling big time given the exit from Varsity stadium by the former because crowds were not big enough to justify paying the rent and the frequent sub-200 attendances (real as opposed to announced) at the latter further compounded that mistake.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Probably because they weren't relative to the original CSL which beyond the Whitecaps was a bit of a farce for the most part. There was a huge difference between the CSL and the NASL in terms of playing standards. IMO it was borderline insane for the CSL to proceed without including Italia and Croatia (regardless of what they wanted to call themselves) and to continue with that situation even after it was obvious that the Blizzard and Rockets were struggling big time given the exit from Varsity stadium by the former because crowds were not big enough to justify paying the rent and the frequent sub-200 attendances (real as opposed to announced) at the latter futher compounded that mistake.

There may have been a difference in playing standards between CSL and NASL, but the fact is that the NSL hurt the Blizzard at the gate, not just in the CSL, but also in the NASL.

The North York Rockets always had respectable crowds of around 2500-3000, no different that the Lynx and more than Toronto Croatia of the NSL. They never had crowds of 200.

The fact is that the NSL was in more trouble than the CSL. Toronto Italia was the flagship club and they folded before the Blizzard, despite the problems the Blizzard were having in the last few years.

The overall standard of play was clearly lower than the CSL. How many national team players did the NSL produce compared to the CSL when both leagues were operational ? Zero.

Clubs like Hamilton and the Blizzard were every bit as good as Vancouver. Pure quality on the field. And without the Montreal Supra (their main sponsor was Saputo), we would not have the Montreal Impact today. We would also not have the Whitecaps today, if not for the 86er's of the CSL.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

And? What about the vast majority of the crowd who are decent law abiding citizens?

What about them? The comment was directed at those thuggish vandals who wilfully damaged public property. How often have FieldTurf pitches in Ontario, or anywhere in Canada for that matter, been burned during soccer games by people deliberately throwing lit flares onto them? How often do organisers in Canada at any game at any level let alone in a supposedly professional league find it necessary to stop a game and switch off the lights before full time to prevent further damage or personal injury or worse?

This is truly a black eye for the CSL regrettably.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

...The North York Rockets always had respectable crowds of around 2500-3000,...

I went to Rockets games sometimes and the sad reality is that crowds were often as David Bailey once put it on Bigsoccer not in the thousands, or even in the hundreds but in the dozens. I was there and that's the way things were. The Blizzard at Centennial would regularly announce 2000 when there were 500 at most actually in the seats. You can't take announced CSL attendance figures at face value as they were routinely inflated in most cities.

As for the NSL hurting the Blizzard in the NASL, the NSL was there first with a history streching back to pre-WWII so you would have to prove that people actively denied one option would have automatically followed the other rather than simply being alienated from the sport completely and that people in that era did not regularly go to watch both leagues. I personally don't see this stuff as a zero sum game but take the view that you need a strong second tier to the sport to have a healthy top tier.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

What about them?

You would deny them the right to watch their team because of the actions of a few that could easily be eliminated in future with better security measures. Does that not seem just a tad on the draconian side to you?

[Richard]

If they were not ethnic teams, and furthermore from communities that have a long history of warring and violence there would be little need for any security. It is invariably the few who spoil it for the many but the CSL is guilty of promoting and encouraging this kind of stuff by instituting this ethnic based league. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

If they were not ethnic teams.....

Almost nobody would be there and nobody beyond the players and coaches would care much who won or lost because the youth soccer minivan crowd that the CPSL were hoping to attract back in 1998 view soccer primarily as recreation for their children and are simply not interested in watching the game at a semi-pro level. The only way a genuine semi-pro league is going to emerge again in southern Ontario any time soon is to allow ethnic based clubs to do their thing.

The flares issue probably should have been clamped down on sooner but hindsight is 20/20. There were problems that way at the Dinamo Zagreb vs Rangers friendly at the Rogers Centre as well. The opposition doesn't have to be Serb for the fieldturf to singe a bit due to Croat launched pyrotechnics.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

I personally don't see this stuff as a zero sum game but take the view that you need a strong second tier to the sport to have a healthy top tier.

Well unfortunetly it was a zero sum game for both the CSL and NSL. If the NSL has shown any flexibility, the CSL could still be operating today.

And where did it get the NSL ? The NSL was an inferior (talent) Ontario based league, that's goal was to bring players from the old country, as opposed to developing Canadian talent.

Canada lost a viable national league that was producing quality talent for Europe and filling our national team roster.

The TO Lynx have produced more talent for Canada than any other club in the country, yet they are being squeezed out of existence. So yes, it is a zero-sum game. It was with the NSL and it continues today.

Would the TO Lynx be stronger both in terms of resources and support if the Serbian White Eagles merged and threw their support behind the Lynx ? Without question.

Would this merged entity be stronger if TO Croatia joined them both in terms of support and resources. Without question.

Would the TO Lynx then be able to survive beside TOFC, to provide a viable second tier that continues to develop Canadian talent ? Without question.

[RealGooner]

God forbid that a club like yours would actually use the dominant form of tribalism within the demographic that is most keen on pro soccer in this country to actually draw a crowd. Scandalous.

...and thanks to the continued promotion of that tribalism WITHIN CANADA, the CSL is turning off as many people as they attract. Probably more. Its interesting to note that the Australian league has taken off and gained new fans and stature now that they have abandoned the ethnic-based teams.

Ethnic based teams are a dead-end. Your market is limited, and will erode as second and third generation community members become less ethnic and more Canadian in outlook. I really wonder whether a new Toronto Italia would ever be able to draw the crowds the old team did in the 60s and 70s. Thanks to integration of younger generations, I suspect not.

[BalkanBoy]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Throwing burning flares onto a FieldTurf pitch was just plain criminal vandalism committed by thugs.

Richard did you attend the game? Stadium officials and the referees decided to "turn-out" the lights because of flares being thrown on the turf. What side of the stadium did this happen on? Was it the White Eagle fans or was it the Croatian side?

As I read these posts I have can not help but think after all the events of the past ten years and there are people who still have a preconceived notion about non-Americans’. Propaganda is the single biggest tool I have seen used to perfection in America (which for me includes Canada). Even though the Former Yugoslavia has had its internal problems and probably always will people from this part of the world have realized that America loves nobody not even their own children. Or there would be money for schools without rats, no leaking roofs, money for hospitals, money for life instead of prisons here and death with those billion dollars worth of perfect clean killing machines in Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan etc.

Ultimately, this forum has been depicting the Serbs fans as lunatics. Serbian person are passionate about sports and nowhere is that a crime. If the above mentioned happened about the "monkey noises" I do agree that it is rude but in no way is this reflection on all the fans. And even if every single person in that stadium was making those noises it far better then most of the things Americans do on a daily basis

[BalkanBoy]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

"Unfortunately, Canada is not a soccer country, though it should be with our melting pot of countries where it is the No. 1 sport. We're hoping when they build the new stadium next year in Toronto(a 20,000-seat facility at Exhibition Place ), soccer will be where it was. We used to have 12,000 to 17,000 out to Eagles games."

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by BalkanBoy

Ultimately, this forum has been depicting the Serbs fans as lunatics. Serbian person are passionate about sports and nowhere is that a crime. If the above mentioned happened about the "monkey noises" I do agree that it is rude but in no way is this reflection on all the fans.

BalkanBoy, I know many Serbs and they are some of the friendliest people I know. It is not my intention to single out Serbs as villains here. However, the sports passion you speak of is being channelled into dangerous areas by the CSL. It is healthy for Italy, Serbia, Craotia and Togo to compete as countries at the world cup every 4 years. However residents of Canada,(many of whom now hold Canadian citizenship) should NOT be encouraged to create sporting rivalries with each other based on nationality. It has been said that sport is simply bloodless war on a smaller battlefield. As soccer generates the fiercest passions of all sports, to combine soccer with ethnicity/nationalism in a multicultural setting is a recipe for division, resentment and yes, hatred. Im surprised the BBTB doesn't see this from his experience with the Old Firm.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

You focus on the actions of a few to pursue an agenda you have when the reality is most people are actually able to refrain from that sort of behaviour.

You should take a page out of you own book and desist from posting on Usector about the sectarian leanings of Celtic supporters. You should stop focussing on 'the actions of a few' since you know that most Celtic fans are actually able to refrain from that sort of behavior.

[BalkanBoy]

Rivalries are a big part of what makes a league successful.

Indeed rivalries also can bring out the worst in people. I've seen otherwise rational, compassionate, open-minded people yell the most offensive and stereotyped (and often funny) comments at players and fans of their rival during a big game. They generally don't really mean any malice, they are just doing it out of fun.

Soccer, being a global sport, already has a lot of this sort of thing of course. In fact, the historical, ethnic and cultural differences between countries are a big part of what makes the World Cup such a fascinating event. This is particularly pronounced when there's been some relatively recent conflict. Countries who have fought wars fight again on the field and the fans go wild. The key difference here though is that the divisions are national.

I wonder if we’d even be having this debate if say it was…oh…game 7 of the Stanley Cup Maple Leafs versus big bad other team or if it was the Olympic Ice Hockey. I don’t think we would, at least not us good ol’ Canadian Canadians. What worries me about all this hoopla around the Soccer Fans is the subtle racist undertones of the entire thing. Someone here comment about the brutal actions of the fanatical Serbian group..

I find it offensive to imply there is anything brutal going on at these games. . When Canada is in the Olympics and we’re on ice not grass it’s suddenly good Canada rah-rah. We should accept the fact that in the GTA they’re closing old ice arena and replacing them with soccer fields and cricket pitches, or that on most weekends people are playing soccer over the baseball diamonds in Christie Pits. I think maybe the best solution would be to field a Canadian team capable to get to the World Cup again. Then Canadian's would have a team to support.