Free kick Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 I wish that there was an online version that I could paste here, but unfortunately its not available on the internet. Today's article by Steven Brunt really hits the mark regarding that stadium issue in my opinion. If there there ever was a piece that captures the argument that many of the stadium and MLS proponents have been saying, that was it. He is also the first writer that I read who took a shot at those who he deemed hostile ( as he called it) to soccer and the project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Free kick I wish that there was an online version that that I could paste here, but unfortunately its not available on the internet. But today's article by Steven Brunt really hits the mark regarding that stadium issue. If there there ever was a piece that captures the argument that many of the stadium and MLS proponents have been saying, that was it. He is also the first writer that really took a shot at those who he deemed hostile ( as he called it) to soccer and the project. MLSE makes out like bandits on the new stadium. And the taxpayer is on the hook for any loses. Supporting this is like saying it was okay for the jays to have the taxpayers pay 650 Million for a place for them to call home and then pick it up in a fire sale for 25 million. It's just as morally wrong as the sponsorship scandal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakwood Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man MLSE makes out like bandits on the new stadium. And the taxpayer is on the hook for any loses. Supporting this is like saying it was okay for the jays to have the taxpayers pay 650 Million for a place for them to call home and then pick it up in a fire sale for 25 million. It's just as morally wrong as the sponsorship scandal. The city pays 10million dollars to this stadium, and they have the ability to use it just like all the other athletic fields in Toronto. 10million dollars isn't even hald of Alex Rodriguez's annual salary, the city can afford that easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 .....and the City is only on the hook for HALF of the OPERATING losses AFTER the first $250,000 annually. The rest is picked up by MLSE. If you are going to continue to post this rubbish, at least get your facts straight - G-ackass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarrek Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Stadium a community asset more open to ordinary people By STEPHEN BRUNT Wednesday, November 2, 2005 Posted at 4:06 AM EST From Wednesday's Globe and Mail E-mail Stephen Brunt Read Bio Latest Columns It's done now, so perhaps best get used to it. There will be a modest soccer stadium built in downtown Toronto, in large part with public money, despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth that accompanied the final political approval of the project last week. Some of those concerns were honest and well founded. Given that the Toronto administration has been plagued by scandal of late, the haste, skipping past some of the normal, formal processes for approval, was an obvious, legitimate cause for dissent. (The counterargument would be that there was a deadline to be met -- not Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment's for being granted a Major League Soccer franchise, but the timeline necessary to get the stadium ready for the 2007 world youth championship, on which the federal part of the commitment was contingent.) And just about any time public money and private money are paired in ventures that involve professional sports, the private interests tend to make out like bandits, while the taxpayers are left feeling suckered. At least in this case, no one bothered to try to justify the investment in terms of phony economic benefits and multiplier effects. Still, there's no arguing the fact that MLSE got a very good deal in return for a very modest investment. Advertisements Is it a worry that those fine folks who brought you $12 beers at the Air Canada Centre will wind up with control of a publicly underwritten stadium after putting up a fraction of the cost? You bet it is. And the Saputo family interests in Montreal, who were on the verge of building their own soccer stadium with their own money (having already done very well operating the Impact of the United Soccer League), also have a legitimate beef. The Canadian Soccer Association, never known for its deft touch, ought to start mending that fence right now. But all of that said and done, it's important to remember what this stadium is, and what it is not. It is not Montreal's Big O or Toronto's Rogers Centre, formerly known as the SkyDome. It will not cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars. Even in a worst-case scenario, the risk represents small change compared with the two greatest stadium debacles in the history of the planet. The reward is that the city winds up with a community asset that will be far more available to ordinary people than the great concrete convertible ever was. (Paul Godfrey actually had the chutzpah to complain during a radio interview last week that Toronto probably wouldn't ante up if he was trying to get a National Football League stadium built. That would be the same Godfrey who was one of the prime political movers behind the $650-million sinkhole where his Major League Baseball team makes its home, recently purchased by his boss, Ted Rogers, at a fire-sale price. The $9-million the city is putting into the soccer stadium would pay for what? The bathroom fixtures in the dome?) Most of those doing the complaining last week were hostile and/or ignorant when it comes to soccer. Over and over again, it was mentioned that because a North American Soccer League team failed a generation ago and low minor-league teams have had trouble drawing support, there's no sustaining interest in the sport in the country's largest market. Well, let's see about that. Let's see how men's international friendlies draw in a market of four million people. Let's see how the Fédération Internationale de Football Association youth tournament does, playing on all of those same loyalties that make the World Cup and the European championship big events in Toronto. Or how the Gold Cup, a first-rate international men's competition, might fare. Let's see what kind of crowds the Canadian women's team, with Christine Sinclair and Kara Lang and the rest, competitive at the world level and exceptionally popular on television, might attract, especially if Canada lands the 2011 women's World Cup. None of those events need 50,000 people in the stands to be deemed a success. They need 15,000, the equivalent of a bad Toronto Argonauts crowd, or what they attracted in the bleakest years for university football's Vanier Cup game. The MLS will be a tougher sell, but the league's economics are such that it doesn't have to fill the stadium to succeed. And having a team in this country will at least allow the core of the men's national squad to play together on a regular basis (not the handful of Canadian first-division players in Europe, such as Tomasz Radzinski and Paul Stalteri, but most everyone below that level), the necessary first step in Canada ever returning to the World Cup. That's not going to move the anti-soccer crowd, but it doesn't have to. They've already got their stadium, and, if memory serves, precious few of them were chaining themselves to the gates to prevent its construction. This little place up the road is for someone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man It's just as morally wrong as the sponsorship scandal. You are just as morally wrong as the sponsorship scandal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Great article, even if a bit over-simplistic in some of the comments, its about time the anti-soccer whiners were given a well-deserved shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man MLSE makes out like bandits on the new stadium. And the taxpayer is on the hook for any loses. Supporting this is like saying it was okay for the jays to have the taxpayers pay 650 Million for a place for them to call home and then pick it up in a fire sale for 25 million. It's just as morally wrong as the sponsorship scandal. Shut up moron. Do you have a clue. DId we not comit to building a stadium for WYC 2007. Yes we did. The Feds and Ontario put up 35 Million for this purpose. Fourtunatly MLSE has come in with the Cityu of Toronto to make it happen. Just stop being an Idiot as difficult as that can be for a moron like you. Negative ass8989Ole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Great article, just one minor problem. Would people stop saying our soccer team faield. The Blizzard did not fold. The NASL did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Brunt is a regular on Bob McCown's radio show. When McCown was going off on the stadium, Brunt and Elliott Friedman were more level-headed about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metro Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Leafs Great article, just one minor problem. Would people stop saying our soccer team faield. The Blizzard did not fold. The NASL did. Stephen Brunt is someone who I've found to be very knowledgeable about the game compared to other media personalities, especially with respect to the local scene. He very likely understands the difference but is just repeating what the anti-soccer people were saying last week, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbailey62 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Metro Stephen Brunt is someone who I've found to be very knowledgeable about the game compared to other media personalities, especially with respect to the local scene. He very likely understands the difference but is just repeating what the anti-soccer people were saying last week, that's all. I've always considered Brunt to be a quality writer. db Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Great article, even if a bit over-simplistic in some of the comments, its about time the anti-soccer whiners were given a well-deserved shot. The last pro soccer season attendance stats for Toronto... 2,468 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man The last pro soccer season attendance stats for Toronto... a metro area of 4 million. 2,468 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man The last pro soccer season attendance stats for Toronto... 2,468 What date in 1984 would that be. That was the last time we had pro soccer in Toronto. Anyone claining Lynx as Pro SOccer is sadly mistakin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man MLSE makes out like bandits on the new stadium. And the taxpayer is on the hook for any loses. Supporting this is like saying it was okay for the jays to have the taxpayers pay 650 Million for a place for them to call home and then pick it up in a fire sale for 25 million. It's just as morally wrong as the sponsorship scandal. One question G-man, if they made out like bandits, why was there not a line up of people to take the same offer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man The last pro soccer season attendance stats for Toronto... 2,468 The last time G-Man had a point.... 1977 Rumour has it that he was disagreeing with a certain cartoon character about whether he should go koo-koo for cocoa puffs, or go koo-koo for an entirely different reason - such as Lucky Charms - all this during commercials that came on while watching Shazam. Quoting Lynx figures as an example of what is likely to come for Toronto MLS makes as much sense as quoting the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball attendance figures as an example of what was likely to happen for Blue Jays attendance in Toronto when they joined the major leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca The last time G-Man had a point.... 1977 Rumour has it that he was disagreeing with a certain cartoon character about whether he should go koo-koo for cocoa puffs, or go koo-koo for an entirely different reason - such as Lucky Charms - all this during commercials that came on while watching Shazam. Quoting Lynx figures as an example of what is likely to come for Toronto MLS makes as much sense as quoting the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball attendance figures as an example of what was likely to happen for Blue Jays attendance in Toronto when they joined the major leagues. You the man. Great point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca The last time G-Man had a point.... 1977 Rumour has it that he was disagreeing with a certain cartoon character about whether he should go koo-koo for cocoa puffs, or go koo-koo for an entirely different reason - such as Lucky Charms - all this during commercials that came on while watching Shazam. Quoting Lynx figures as an example of what is likely to come for Toronto MLS makes as much sense as quoting the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball attendance figures as an example of what was likely to happen for Blue Jays attendance in Toronto when they joined the major leagues. You seem to over estimate the value of having MLS next to a name. You also over estimate the value of a SSS or having a rich sugar daddy owner. The fact is that the MLS lost 250 million in it's first 10 years and still bleeds. If not for Lomar Hunt, the league would have died in season 3 as did the WUSA. Soccer crackheads always have new angle on how soccer is going to take hold of the North American public's imigination. In the 70's(NASL)it was a star power and TV. In the 90's (MLS)it was simply throw tons of cash at it and get corporate buy-in. And now it's soccer specific stadiums will break it wide open. Both didn't happen. You're a soccer crackhead needing his fix of redemption for being a supporter of a great sport, in land that simply doens't care for the pro game. So like most junkies, you'll believe anything or anyone that promises a hit and boy do you but in. You hate the Lynx cause they show the reality of your fetish. That Toronto is like Buffalo soccer wise. That there is at best 2000 soccer crackhead like you willing to show up for games. And yet somehow the Hartwells are to blame for your insanity of not supporting a main stream sport and giving you a weekly fix. Which is funny cause I bet you haven't put up a nickel in the running of the club. Yet they failed YOU. Always societies fault. The fact is that Pro field lacrosse gets better TV ratings. Pro soccer is probably on, no ones radar screen for good reason. They other things to watch or go to. Things that make them North American and not Polish or Spanish. The Impact/Whitecaps have it right. Take the time to really develop a fan base by reaching out to the community and converting one fan at time with a solid product. Don't oversell yourself. Realise that you have limited audience and connect with it. That you'll never mean to you city what the Green Bay Packers or Liverpool mean to theres. Niche. NO one will buy season tickets based on a SSS or some washed up Euro star. AND HELLO--The market in Toronto isn't even ready to support a lousy USL team, let alone ready to draw 15K a game for a lousy MLS team. But a soccer crackhead couldn't see that. So G-L...I wish you and the Toronto Aviators all the best. Cause if you say that people will turn out in the tens of thousands to see Marc Birchman play 20 times in 5 months and that they'll be chanting his name.... I'll have some of that soccer crack PIPE. Must be quite the trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River City Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Soccer crackheads? Does that mean there are soccer crack-houses? How do we start one up in Edmonton? As a fundraising venture for the Voyageurs, let's a get a Toronto MLS first year attendance pool started. $10/entry and then we'll see who's right...the crackheads or the anti-crackheads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River City Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Soccer crackheads? Does that mean there are soccer crack-houses? How do we start one up in Edmonton? As a fundraising venture for the Voyageurs, let's a get a Toronto MLS first year attendance pool started. $10/entry and then we'll see who's right...the crackheads or the anti-crackheads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man You seem to over estimate the value of having MLS next to a name. You also over estimate the value of a SSS or having a rich sugar daddy owner. The fact is that the MLS lost 250 million in it's first 10 years and still bleeds. If not for Lomar Hunt, the league would have died in season 3 as did the WUSA. Soccer crackheads always have new angle on how soccer is going to take hold of the North American public's imigination. In the 70's(NASL)it was a star power and TV. In the 90's (MLS)it was simply throw tons of cash at it and get corporate buy-in. And now it's soccer specific stadiums will break it wide open. Both didn't happen. You're a soccer crackhead needing his fix of redemption for being a supporter of a great sport, in land that simply doens't care for the pro game. So like most junkies, you'll believe anything or anyone that promises a hit and boy do you but in. You hate the Lynx cause they show the reality of your fetish. That Toronto is like Buffalo soccer wise. That there is at best 2000 soccer crackhead like you willing to show up for games. And yet somehow the Hartwells are to blame for your insanity of not supporting a main stream sport and giving you a weekly fix. Which is funny cause I bet you haven't put up a nickel in the running of the club. Yet they failed YOU. Always societies fault. The fact is that Pro field lacrosse gets better TV ratings. Pro soccer is probably on, no ones radar screen for good reason. They other things to watch or go to. Things that make them North American and not Polish or Spanish. The last time we had pro soccer we had over 10 average attendace. You know nothing about the situation here. Lynx have not spent 100 bucks to promote team. They have a piss poor product. Montreal is winning when they dont it will be back to 2K a game. Can you spell front runners, our friends in BC are not far behind. Look at all the tams in VCR win people attend lose they dont. As for Aviators they are an Team that failed in Edmonton, because Edmonton lacks soccer fans. The Impact/Whitecaps have it right. Take the time to really develop a fan base by reaching out to the community and converting one fan at time with a solid product. Don't oversell yourself. Realise that you have limited audience and connect with it. That you'll never mean to you city what the Green Bay Packers or Liverpool mean to theres. Niche. NO one will buy season tickets based on a SSS or some washed up Euro star. AND HELLO--The market in Toronto isn't even ready to support a lousy USL team, let alone ready to draw 15K a game for a lousy MLS team. But a soccer crackhead couldn't see that. So G-L...I wish you and the Toronto Aviators all the best. Cause if you say that people will turn out in the tens of thousands to see Marc Birchman play 20 times in 5 months and that they'll be chanting his name.... I'll have some of that soccer crack PIPE. Must be quite the trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man You seem to over estimate the value of having MLS next to a name. You also over estimate the value of a SSS or having a rich sugar daddy owner. The fact is that the MLS lost 250 million in it's first 10 years and still bleeds. If not for Lomar Hunt, the league would have died in season 3 as did the WUSA. Soccer crackheads always have new angle on how soccer is going to take hold of the North American public's imigination. In the 70's(NASL)it was a star power and TV. In the 90's (MLS)it was simply throw tons of cash at it and get corporate buy-in. And now it's soccer specific stadiums will break it wide open. Both didn't happen. You're a soccer crackhead needing his fix of redemption for being a supporter of a great sport, in land that simply doens't care for the pro game. So like most junkies, you'll believe anything or anyone that promises a hit and boy do you but in. You hate the Lynx cause they show the reality of your fetish. That Toronto is like Buffalo soccer wise. That there is at best 2000 soccer crackhead like you willing to show up for games. And yet somehow the Hartwells are to blame for your insanity of not supporting a main stream sport and giving you a weekly fix. Which is funny cause I bet you haven't put up a nickel in the running of the club. Yet they failed YOU. Always societies fault. The fact is that Pro field lacrosse gets better TV ratings. Pro soccer is probably on, no ones radar screen for good reason. They other things to watch or go to. Things that make them North American and not Polish or Spanish. The last time we had pro soccer we had over 10 average attendace. You know nothing about the situation here. Lynx have not spent 100 bucks to promote team. They have a piss poor product. Montreal is winning when they dont it will be back to 2K a game. Can you spell front runners, our friends in BC are not far behind. Look at all the tams in VCR win people attend lose they dont. As for Aviators they are an Team that failed in Edmonton, because Edmonton lacks soccer fans. The Impact/Whitecaps have it right. Take the time to really develop a fan base by reaching out to the community and converting one fan at time with a solid product. Don't oversell yourself. Realise that you have limited audience and connect with it. That you'll never mean to you city what the Green Bay Packers or Liverpool mean to theres. Niche. NO one will buy season tickets based on a SSS or some washed up Euro star. AND HELLO--The market in Toronto isn't even ready to support a lousy USL team, let alone ready to draw 15K a game for a lousy MLS team. But a soccer crackhead couldn't see that. So G-L...I wish you and the Toronto Aviators all the best. Cause if you say that people will turn out in the tens of thousands to see Marc Birchman play 20 times in 5 months and that they'll be chanting his name.... I'll have some of that soccer crack PIPE. Must be quite the trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man You seem to over estimate the value of having MLS next to a name. You also over estimate the value of a SSS or having a rich sugar daddy owner. The fact is that the MLS lost 250 million in it's first 10 years and still bleeds. If not for Lomar Hunt, the league would have died in season 3 as did the WUSA. Soccer crackheads always have new angle on how soccer is going to take hold of the North American public's imigination. In the 70's(NASL)it was a star power and TV. In the 90's (MLS)it was simply throw tons of cash at it and get corporate buy-in. And now it's soccer specific stadiums will break it wide open. Both didn't happen. You're a soccer crackhead needing his fix of redemption for being a supporter of a great sport, in land that simply doens't care for the pro game. So like most junkies, you'll believe anything or anyone that promises a hit and boy do you but in. You hate the Lynx cause they show the reality of your fetish. That Toronto is like Buffalo soccer wise. That there is at best 2000 soccer crackhead like you willing to show up for games. And yet somehow the Hartwells are to blame for your insanity of not supporting a main stream sport and giving you a weekly fix. Which is funny cause I bet you haven't put up a nickel in the running of the club. Yet they failed YOU. Always societies fault. The fact is that Pro field lacrosse gets better TV ratings. Pro soccer is probably on, no ones radar screen for good reason. They other things to watch or go to. Things that make them North American and not Polish or Spanish. The Impact/Whitecaps have it right. Take the time to really develop a fan base by reaching out to the community and converting one fan at time with a solid product. Don't oversell yourself. Realise that you have limited audience and connect with it. That you'll never mean to you city what the Green Bay Packers or Liverpool mean to theres. Niche. NO one will buy season tickets based on a SSS or some washed up Euro star. AND HELLO--The market in Toronto isn't even ready to support a lousy USL team, let alone ready to draw 15K a game for a lousy MLS team. But a soccer crackhead couldn't see that. So G-L...I wish you and the Toronto Aviators all the best. Cause if you say that people will turn out in the tens of thousands to see Marc Birchman play 20 times in 5 months and that they'll be chanting his name.... I'll have some of that soccer crack PIPE. Must be quite the trip. The wa y you whine you must be from Montreal. You sound like a retarded HABS fan[)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafs Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man You seem to over estimate the value of having MLS next to a name. You also over estimate the value of a SSS or having a rich sugar daddy owner. The fact is that the MLS lost 250 million in it's first 10 years and still bleeds. If not for Lomar Hunt, the league would have died in season 3 as did the WUSA. Soccer crackheads always have new angle on how soccer is going to take hold of the North American public's imigination. In the 70's(NASL)it was a star power and TV. In the 90's (MLS)it was simply throw tons of cash at it and get corporate buy-in. And now it's soccer specific stadiums will break it wide open. Both didn't happen. You're a soccer crackhead needing his fix of redemption for being a supporter of a great sport, in land that simply doens't care for the pro game. So like most junkies, you'll believe anything or anyone that promises a hit and boy do you but in. You hate the Lynx cause they show the reality of your fetish. That Toronto is like Buffalo soccer wise. That there is at best 2000 soccer crackhead like you willing to show up for games. And yet somehow the Hartwells are to blame for your insanity of not supporting a main stream sport and giving you a weekly fix. Which is funny cause I bet you haven't put up a nickel in the running of the club. Yet they failed YOU. Always societies fault. The fact is that Pro field lacrosse gets better TV ratings. Pro soccer is probably on, no ones radar screen for good reason. They other things to watch or go to. Things that make them North American and not Polish or Spanish. The Impact/Whitecaps have it right. Take the time to really develop a fan base by reaching out to the community and converting one fan at time with a solid product. Don't oversell yourself. Realise that you have limited audience and connect with it. That you'll never mean to you city what the Green Bay Packers or Liverpool mean to theres. Niche. NO one will buy season tickets based on a SSS or some washed up Euro star. AND HELLO--The market in Toronto isn't even ready to support a lousy USL team, let alone ready to draw 15K a game for a lousy MLS team. But a soccer crackhead couldn't see that. So G-L...I wish you and the Toronto Aviators all the best. Cause if you say that people will turn out in the tens of thousands to see Marc Birchman play 20 times in 5 months and that they'll be chanting his name.... I'll have some of that soccer crack PIPE. Must be quite the trip. The wa y you whine you must be from Montreal. You sound like a retarded HABS fan[)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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