Article in today Globe and mail - A must read

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Leafs

The wa y you whine you must be from Montreal. You sound like a retarded HABS fan[)]

People seem to be taking issue with comparing the Lynx attendance with "Major" league soccer. Well the last time we had major league soccer (Metros/Metros-Croatia/Blizzard)we did not exactly show up in great numbers either. The best we ever did in attendance was 15k in 1980 - a year when 7 other cities did better (including Tulsa and Minnesota!!!) and the league average was right around 15k.....so we were never better than an "average" soccer city.

In fact, of the 14 years of that particular team (1971 to the league end in 1984) the team only averaged over 10,000 4 times!!!! Not exactly a great performance.

I would argue that there is a direct relationship between the Lynx crowds versus Blizzard crowds ratio and the ones that exist for the NASL Whitecaps and their USL counterpart as well as with the Manic and Impact crowds.

Put another (simpler) way, no matter what league, Toronto has never proven to be any better than the 3rd best supported team in Canada.

As bright and articulate a man as Stephen Brunt is, I will await imperical evidence to suggest that Toronto is actually a soccer supporting city.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

You seem to over estimate the value of having MLS next to a name. You also over estimate the value of a SSS or having a rich sugar daddy owner.

You seem to have a very large ass considering that you keep pulling comments like this out of it.

quote:

The fact is that the MLS lost 250 million in it's first 10 years and still bleeds. If not for Lomar Hunt, the league would have died in season 3 as did the WUSA.

The fact is the MLS didn't die in year 3, and getting new owners like MLSE into the league only makes the league stronger - that's why they have come to Toronto.

quote:

Soccer crackheads always have new angle on how soccer is going to take hold of the North American public's imigination. In the 70's(NASL)it was a star power and TV. In the 90's (MLS)it was simply throw tons of cash at it and get corporate buy-in. And now it's soccer specific stadiums will break it wide open.

Both didn't happen.

That ass of yours is just huge! More comments just keep coming out of it. Apparently we've all been predicting on this board that the MLS in Toronto will be the biggest thing since sliced bread. Gee, its funny how none of us have actually said that, but its okay, as long as you can build those little straw men to beat up in your comments, you're happy. Deluded, but happy.

quote:

You're a soccer crackhead needing his fix of redemption for being a supporter of a great sport, in land that simply doens't care for the pro game. So like most junkies, you'll believe anything or anyone that promises a hit and boy do you but in. You hate the Lynx cause they show the reality of your fetish.

You must need to use a double-sized toilet. I mean, I've never seen so many comments pulled out of one's ass as this. This is record-setting. Now apparently I hate the Lynx! Thanks for letting me know. I'll remember that when I'm in the stands next summer. We'll do a chant just for you.

quote:

The fact is that Pro field lacrosse gets better TV ratings. Pro soccer is probably on, no ones radar screen for good reason. They other things to watch or go to. Things that make them North American and not Polish or Spanish.

As MLS games are not broadcast in Canada, of course Pro Lacrosse games get better ratings. If somebody were to film you wiping your rear end as it sits on your double-toilet at home as you hide in fear and paranoia from the black helicopters that you imagine circle your home at night (piloted by MLSE employees no doubt) and broadcast that in Canada, that would get better ratings than non-existent MLS broadcasts in Canada.

quote:

The Impact/Whitecaps have it right.

Yeah, which is to go to MLS.

quote:

NO one will buy season tickets based on a SSS or some washed up Euro star. AND HELLO--The market in Toronto isn't even ready to support a lousy USL team, let alone ready to draw 15K a game for a lousy MLS team.

Yeah, you've said that about a thousand times already in the last month. Nobody likes soccer in Toronto, soccer can't become more popular here because its such a lousy boring game that no new fans can possibly be created in the large market once they have a new team of their own that they know about for the first time ever, the marketing of MLSE is just the same as it will be under the Hartrells which is totally non-existent, the media coverage will also be non-existent, the MLSE can't make major league sports other than hockey work in Toronto even though they've done it with basketball and Toronto isn't a basketball town, nobody will be interested in seeing the new stadium, the Canadian national team won't reap the benefits of their association with MLSE cross-promoting the games, Toronto MLS will fail even though Toronto NASL didn't, people won't go to games because they will complain about not being able to eat un-limited amount of rice pudding while they watch the games, etc. etc

We heard you already. Let us know you one day when you have a new point, and if you have any reason for repeating the same non-persuasive crap over and over again, as there are no signs that anyone with an open mind is going to change their mind and agree with your ramblings any time soon.

quote:

But a soccer crackhead couldn't see that. So G-L...I wish you and the Toronto Aviators all the best. Cause if you say that people will turn out in the tens of thousands to see Marc Birchman play 20 times in 5 months and that they'll be chanting his name....

Ye King High of Strawman. People will turn out to see a professional soccer product if one is presented to them. If you think soccer is a lousy, boring sport that nobody could possibly like, you go right ahead and think that.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by River City

Soccer crackheads? Does that mean there are soccer crack-houses? How do we start one up in Edmonton? As a fundraising venture for the Voyageurs, let's a get a Toronto MLS first year attendance pool started.

$10/entry and then we'll see who's right...the crackheads or the anti-crackheads.

I'm in. Average attendance:

2400 Paid in full

3000 Discounted tickets (re: shoppers,loblaws or local kids clubs)

2300 Give aways (order a Pizza from Pizza Pizza and get a 2 Aviator tickets)

Total 7700 per game.

and the extra:

780 season tickets. (about what the EXPOS had in their last year)

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

I would argue that there is a direct relationship between the Lynx crowds versus Blizzard crowds ratio and the ones that exist for the NASL Whitecaps and their USL counterpart as well as with the Manic and Impact crowds.

Put another (simpler) way, no matter what league, Toronto has never proven to be any better than the 3rd best supported team in Canada.

Toronto had better attendances in the NASL than Montreal in 4 out of the 6 years Montreal was in the league. Plus they had a team for another 8 seasons that Montreal didn't have any in the league, and that doesn't include the crowds NSL teams in Toronto would pull in at the same time as the NASL Toronto teams were playing. Based on the NASL years Toronto is definitely ahead of Montreal.

But with all due respect.....who cares? Arguing over whether Toronto deserves an MLS team first more than Montreal or Vancouver, or whether a Montreal or Vancouver team will get better attendance is beside the point. The question is whether Toronto should get an MLS team at all, whether it could work here, whether one is needed here.

G-Man has a negative response to all of these questions and has repeated them ad nauseum in super-troll-like fashion for the past month or so. Why he continues to repeat the same comments, what he's hoping to prove, and who he's hoping to convince, is a mystery to all. Not one that I will lose sleep over.

[Leafs]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Do you come in a larger RETARDED model. What a total F WAD you are. G-L was wrong its not a double wide its a triple wide toilet you use in the Trailer Park you live in. TPT is all you are.

What team do you support?

I'm in. Average attendance:

2400 Paid in full

3000 Discounted tickets (re: shoppers,loblaws or local kids clubs)

2300 Give aways (order a Pizza from Pizza Pizza and get a 2 Aviator tickets)

Total 7700 per game.

and the extra:

780 season tickets. (about what the EXPOS had in their last year)

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Leafs

That would be a great number!?!? How does it compare to the MLS as a whole?

1996 League average attendance = 17,406 Lowest team average = 10,213(Colorado)

1997 League average attendance = 14,619 Lowest team average = 9,058(Kansas City)

1998 League average attendance = 14,312 Lowest team average = 8,073(Kansas City)

1999 League average attendance = 14,282 Lowest team average = 8,183(Kansas City)

2000 League average attendance = 13,756 Lowest team average = 7,460(Miami)

2001 League average attendance = 14,961 Lowest team average = 9,635(San Jose)

2002 League average attendance = 15,822 Lowest team average = 11,150(San Jose)

2003 League average attendance = 14,898 Lowest team average = 7,906(Dallas)

2004 League average attendance = 15,559 Lowest team average = 9,088(Dallas)

2005 League average attendance = 15,105 Lowest team average = 9,691(Kansas City)

So, what you are predicting is:

• an average Toronto crowd that is, plus or minus, half of the league average (which has ranged from a low of 13,756 to a high of 17,406).
• an average Toronto crowd that is would become the second lowest team average in league history and the only team to do that bad before(Miami in 2000) is now defunct
• an average Toronto crowd that is so low when compared to the most recent new franchises' first years (Chivas 17,080 and RSL 18,037) that the league would wonder "why did we do that?"

If that is the lofty goal that Toronto is setting for itself, you would have to ask "why bother" well in advance!!!

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Toronto had better attendances in the NASL than Montreal in 4 out of the 6 years Montreal was in the league.

I thought the Manic were only in the league for 3 years (81-83) and had averages of 23,704/21,348/9,910 while Toronto averaged 7,299/8,185/11,630 in those same years?

quote:Plus they had a team for another 8 seasons that Montreal didn't have any in the league, and that doesn't include the crowds NSL teams in Toronto would pull in at the same time as the NASL Toronto teams were playing. Based on the NASL years Toronto is definitely ahead of Montreal.

Can't say for sure, but aren't/weren't there sem-pro leagues in the Montreal area too? In any event, unless you can show me that, say, in 1981 on any given NASL game night there were 16,500 people in Toronto attending NSL/TD games, then I think Montreal still wins [8D]

quote:But with all due respect.....who cares? Arguing over whether Toronto deserves an MLS team first more than Montreal or Vancouver, or whether a Montreal or Vancouver team will get better attendance is beside the point. The question is whether Toronto should get an MLS team at all, whether it could work here, whether one is needed here.

True, just like in the NASL days, someone with cash is making a bet on soccer succeeding in Toronto. As a fan (of both the NASL and MLS) I will buy tickets and hope they succeed. I just don't think anything has changed from those days and I don't think that we will see crowds in Toronto that consistantly meet or exceed the league averages.

Someone else pointed out that MLS has lost something like $250 million in its 10 years. Presumably, then, the league average is not enough to pay the bills......if (as I suspect) Toronto is consistantly lower than that....I think you know where I am going with this.

quote:G-Man has a negative response to all of these questions and has repeated them ad nauseum in super-troll-like fashion for the past month or so. Why he continues to repeat the same comments, what he's hoping to prove, and who he's hoping to convince, is a mystery to all. Not one that I will lose sleep over.

I won't comment on G-Man but I will say it does not matter who he is trying to convince. Just because he (or I) have a different opinion than most on here, does not make that opinion any the less valid.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

I thought the Manic were only in the league for 3 years (81-83) and had averages of 23,704/21,348/9,910 while Toronto averaged 7,299/8,185/11,630 in those same years?

I posted NASL attendances recently in the Toronto Falcons thread. The Montreal Olympique played in the NASL from 1971 to 1973. Toronto Metros outdrew them all three years. Toronto was only a couple of people away from leading the NASL in attendance in 1972 (Vancouver didn't have a team until 1974 after the Royals folded along with the Falcons & most of the NASL after the initial 1968 season).

I think though that the early 70's & early 80's attendance statistics are both ancient history, for all intents and purposes. They are only useful for pointing out how much better a major league team draws than the Toronto Lynx (for those people who like to base "Toronto MLS will draw no better than the Lynx" conclusions) and to illustrate that Toronto's "major league" pro team didn't fail, the league around it did. Though part of this is superior corporate support and like it or not, that's a part of pro sports these days as well. The Winnipeg Jets didn't fly down to Phoenix because of crappy attendance, for example.

quote:

Can't say for sure, but aren't/weren't there sem-pro leagues in the Montreal area too? In any event, unless you can show me that, say, in 1981 on any given NASL game night there were 16,500 people in Toronto attending NSL/TD games, then I think Montreal still wins [8D]

I'll wait for somebody from Montreal to speak up about that - if they were pulling in 5000 plus crowds, it will be news to me. Keep in mind that the 1981 Blizzard amassed a record of 7 wins and 25 losses for the worst record in the league. That's the main reason why their attendance dropped in half following the 1980 season.

quote:

I just don't think anything has changed from those days and I don't think that we will see crowds in Toronto that consistantly meet or exceed the league averages.

That's fair enough - I don't know if you will be correct or not about that, I hope not. The Blizzard tended to do better in the stands than the Metro partly because of superior owners, IMO and I don't think we've ever had sports empire owners in Toronto for soccer before - Global was great in the late 70's & early 80's, but they don't touch MLSE in my book. I also think soccer is even more popular in general in Toronto now than it was in 1980 (compare the popularity of the European Cup in Toronto today vs. 1980 - if the Leafs can tap into a fraction of that they'll do fine).

quote:

I won't comment on G-Man but I will say it does not matter who he is trying to convince. Just because he (or I) have a different opinion than most on here, does not make that opinion any the less valid.

No what makes an opinion less valid is if it is based on false information (which G-Man has tried to provide plenty of, and been called on it by several posters over the past few weeks) or a false premise - such as G-Man's argument that MLS Toronto attendance will be the same as the Lynx attendance, based on the false premise that there is no difference between the un-holy alliance of the Hartrells, the A-league and Centennial stadium on the Etobicoke/Mississauga border vs. the holy trinity of MLSE, MLS and a soccer-specific stadium in downtown Toronto.

[RS]

TOareaFan, your opinions, whtether they differ from any one else's on this board, are more than welcome here, as they seem to be well-thought out and without some sort of hidden agenda.

G-Man, on the other hand, enters every thread with the same broken record trolling mindset. Not only that, he has an extra large ass since he pulls many false facts out of it as G-L stated, plus he somehow manages to have his head firmly entrenched up there alongside said falshoods.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I posted NASL attendances recently in the Toronto Falcons thread. The Montreal Olympique played in the NASL from 1971 to 1973. Toronto Metros outdrew them all three years. Toronto was only a couple of people away from leading the NASL in attendance in 1972 (Vancouver didn't have a team until 1974 after the Royals folded along with the Falcons & most of the NASL after the initial 1968 season).

I think though that the early 70's & early 80's attendance statistics are both ancient history, for all intents and purposes. They are only useful for pointing out how much better a major league team draws than the Toronto Lynx (for those people who like to base "Toronto MLS will draw no better than the Lynx" conclusions) and to illustrate that Toronto's "major league" pro team didn't fail, the league around it did. Though part of this is superior corporate support and like it or not, that's a part of pro sports these days as well. The Winnipeg Jets didn't fly down to Phoenix because of crappy attendance, for example.

I'll wait for somebody from Montreal to speak up about that - if they were pulling in 5000 plus crowds, it will be news to me. Keep in mind that the 1981 Blizzard amassed a record of 7 wins and 25 losses for the worst record in the league. That's the main reason why their attendance dropped in half following the 1980 season.

That's fair enough - I don't know if you will be correct or not about that, I hope not. The Blizzard tended to do better in the stands than the Metro partly because of superior owners, IMO and I don't think we've ever had sports empire owners in Toronto for soccer before - Global was great in the late 70's & early 80's, but they don't touch MLSE in my book. I also think soccer is even more popular in general in Toronto now than it was in 1980 (compare the popularity of the European Cup in Toronto today vs. 1980 - if the Leafs can tap into a fraction of that they'll do fine).

Hey G-L,

Don't forget that Karsten Von Wersebe's "York Hanover" purchased the Blizzard from Global when it seemed that they were going to pull out. Global was OK but York Hanover were the guys who brought in Jimmy Nichol and Bob Houghton along with Byrne, Roberts, Paskin, Ace and (biggest of all) Bettega.

As I was saying to somebody today, if anybody is going to make this work, it is MLSE.

db

[G-Man]

Last I heard, disagreeing with someone was allowed in this country and didn't make you a troll.

I think based on Toronto soccer history and current stats, 7700 is a good number. But is it enough to spend close to 80 million on to get a team and a stadium (i'm including infracture in that cost)

What the soccer crackheads don't realise is that outside of their small group most people would be hard to pressed to state the differences between MLS and USL1.

As far as they're concerned, it's all pro soccer that they'll pass on it thank you very much. Most couldn't tell the difference between Garth Kusch and Boudewijn Zenden.

And for those in TO that have embraced MLS sight unseen (whose the goalie? whose the GM? whats the name of the team? what are the ticket prices? etc) and have turned away from an exisiting pro losing team what does that say about you as fans? Any prospective owner, should question your long term loyality and fickleness. A few hard losing seasons and who'll be bitching at my corporation, threatening boycotts and calling me all kinds of bad names for losing money to promote your fetish. Imagine if I market at kids cause they're just not enough middle aged guys living at home willing to come to my games and buy 100 dollar replica shirts (it's simply not worth the effort to make and then sell a 12 dollar scarf- cheap bastards). Cause they're all at the leafs a games!

I can't see fans in Everton turning away if they get demoted, even if they had to take public transport to games. Man City fans saw their club drop 3 divisions. And they still supported them.

It's too bad G-l and Leafs don't have the same spirit for their hometown team-- the Lynx.

some points:

Pro Lacrosse gets better rating in the states. So does college softball.

7700- yes- I saying why bother!

250 Million Lose? Yes look at page 47 of this great law thingy based on MLS statements in a court:

www.law.nyu.edu/alumni/reunion2005/documents/MajorLeagueSuckers.pdf

...which also a good read on the MLS monopoly and how their screwing their players...

Freedom of expression. I say the Toronto Aviators will fly as high as it did in Edmonton, except this time MLSE has deeper pockets and the road will end in 3 years and not in 2/3 of a season.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Last I heard, disagreeing with someone was allowed in this country and didn't make you a troll.

This forum isn't a country, it's an internet forum. In Cyberspace. One that you have to register for. Posting here isn't a constitutional right, its a privelege, one which can be revoked by the forum owners if the privilege is abused. If you disagree with somebody that's fine, make your point and move along. Or make new points and move along Constantly stirring the pot by posting negative crap based on false facts, posting comments that you are going to have a great time watching soccer fail in Canada and making comments that Italians are going to be shipped out of Canada if they don't support soccer here is just pure trolling. You aren't hoping to change anyone's mind, you are just here to try to wind people up. Thankfully in vain.

quote:

As far as they're concerned, it's all pro soccer that they'll pass on it thank you very much. Most couldn't tell the difference between Garth Kusch and Boudewijn Zenden.

Who the hell is "Garth" Kusch?

quote:

And for those in TO that have embraced MLS sight unseen

Such as who? What makes you think we don't know what the MLS product is like? The league has been around for nearly 10 years already.

quote:

(It's too bad G-l and Leafs don't have the same spirit for their hometown team-- the Lynx.

Its too bad for you that you have no clue what you are talking about with respect to me and just make yourself look even sillier with ridiculous comments like this. But that's what trolls are like.

[john tv]

Hey G.Man what is your relation with Malaysian Soccer.I picked this up from your profile.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

This forum isn't a country, it's an internet forum. In Cyberspace. One that you have to register for. Posting here isn't a constitutional right, its a privelege, one which can be revoked by the forum owners if the privilege is abused. If you disagree with somebody that's fine, make your point and move along. Or make new points and move along Constantly stirring the pot by posting negative crap based on false facts, posting comments that you are going to have a great time watching soccer fail in Canada and making comments that Italians are going to be shipped out of Canada if they don't support soccer here is just pure trolling. You aren't hoping to change anyone's mind, you are just here to try to wind people up. Thankfully in vain.

Who the hell is "Garth" Kusch?

Such as who? What makes you think we don't know what the MLS product is like? The league has been around for nearly 10 years already.

Its too bad for you that you have no clue what you are talking about with respect to me and just make yourself look even sillier with ridiculous comments like this. But that's what trolls are like.

The italian qoute was making fun of someone who brought a city coucellor's hertitage into it. Sorry you don't get sarcasim.

You've done nothing but bitch about the hartwells and the lynx and nothing but gush over MLSE and the MLS sight unseen.

If the people who run this board want me off, they'll do it. And I doubt that you crying that someone is taking the piss on you will do the trick. AND I am taking the piss on you. You're too big a target not to. You represent the worst element in the canadian soccer community. You're part of the Scarf club. You want someone else to do all the work and lose his shirt in the process, so you can get a scarf. And when it doesn't go your way-- you feel that you some devine right to bitch (Lynx, Hartwells). The classic back seat driver and you started the name calling and then you whine when someone call you one.

So what's your attendance figure? I'm saying 7700. And if I'm wrong in 2 years, I'll buy you a nice scarf with "Toronto" on it. You can wear to it work and say "Look I love FUTBOL"

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

Hey G.Man what is your relation with Malaysian Soccer.I picked this up from your profile.

The great Mokhtar Dahari dated my mom when she lived there. She's Dutch, and her parents lived there for several years in her teens while granddad ran the local spice mill.

I've been a big fan of the Malaysian Super League since it's inception. I have several scarfs of many of the top rated teams. I have even painted my den in the colours of Sabah Rhinos.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

The italian qoute was making fun of someone who brought a city coucellor's hertitage into it. Sorry you don't get sarcasim.

You've done nothing but bitch about the hartwells and the lynx and nothing but gush over MLSE and the MLS sight unseen.

If the people who run this board want me off, they'll do it. And I doubt that you crying that someone is taking the piss on you will do the trick. AND I am taking the piss on you. You're too big a target not to. You represent the worst element in the canadian soccer community. You're part of the Scarf club. You want someone else to do all the work and lose his shirt in the process, so you can get a scarf. And when it doesn't go your way-- you feel that you some devine right to bitch (Lynx, Hartwells). The classic back seat driver and you started the name calling and then you whine when someone call you one.

So what's your attendance figure? I'm saying 7700. And if I'm wrong in 2 years, I'll buy you a nice scarf with "Toronto" on it. You can wear to it work and say "Look I love FUTBOL"

G-Man, stop looking for attention. Although G-L is more than capable of defending himself here, it must be said that G_L is a Lynx supporter who actually attends games. Have you? Did you support the Aviators? Its easy to be a hypocrite trolling on and on about how Toronto fans are fickle etc, yeah I'm really really hurt by that one. I am not a Lynx supporter (though on Polish Lynx Fan's suggestion I'll probabbly go to games next year). I havent pledged any undying allegience to any MLS team yet. What many of us have determined to do is to form a supporters group in anticipation of a new MLS team. You really didn't read did you? Well look, you didnt want MLS in Canada. If MLS came here, you didn't want it in Toronto. You lost on both counts, badly. Now you are reduced to making facile predictions of failure. Pathetic. Does trolling make the bitterness of a double defeat more palatable for you? Then go ahead amuse yourself. We are having a laugh here.

As the old stadium cheer goes...

"MLS...we're havin' a laugh!"

[john tv]

How is your Dutch?

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

How is your Dutch?

Pretty good. Thanks for asking.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

What the soccer crackheads don't realise is that outside of their small group most people would be hard to pressed to state the differences between MLS and USL1.

As far as they're concerned, it's all pro soccer that they'll pass on it thank you very much. Most couldn't tell the difference between Garth Kusch and Boudewijn Zenden.

These 2 statements are incorrect and seeing as how they seem to form the crux of your argument (in essense) as to why MLS is destined to fail, I think this is where your whole point falls apart.

The general fan likes to support the highest level of a sport available to them. The difference between MLS and USL1 in Toronto is significantly large that you can't lump the two together under the umbrella of "pro soccer". There are two tiers here and that's apparent to even the casual fan. (Note: the casual fan here does not include the Euro-snobs who will never be convinced to go unless an EPL team is visiting. I'm talking about the majority of Torontonians with a peripheral knowledge of soccer).

Firstly, the MLS team will be situated in a venue that is a) easier to access for most fans and probably more enjoyable (ie. new stadium) to be in than that used for the USL team. MLSE has also made a pledge to keep ticket prices reasonable and if they can succeed in this then they are in fact bringing the game to the people and not the other way around which is what it seems to currently be with the Lynx. Ticket prices and accessibility are especially important in a city like Toronto who's sporting event tickets are pretty expensive.

Secondly, it may seem semantic to you, but the fact that MLS is widely known as "Major League Soccer" gives it a sense of credibility and legitimacy to the casual fan. Couple that with the fact that the other MLS teams are situated in major cities (Chicago, DC, Los Angeles) and the fact that there are marketable and recognizable names (Adu, Donovan) only helps to cement the idea that MLS is a credible league with talent. USL does have any of this, thus is looked upon as a second-tier league.

Feel free to take this with a grain of salt. I'm not trying to change your mind as that would seem to be impossible. Just trying to show how some simple economic analysis of the situation doesn't really support your point of view.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

The italian qoute was making fun of someone who brought a city coucellor's hertitage into it. Sorry you don't get sarcasim.

Sorry that you don't even know how to spell the word properly. You don't also understand what sarcasm is, if you label that comment as an attempt at it.

quote:

You've done nothing but bitch about the hartwells and the lynx and nothing but gush over MLSE and the MLS sight unseen.

As opposed to doing nothing but bitch about the MLSE & the MLS sight unseen? Pot. Kettle. Black.

I've been a regular attendee of Lynx matches for years. I've also attended MLS matches. I know full well about the type of product we will be getting, and the type of product the Hartrells have put out in comparison. That's a pretty interesting definition of "sight unseen".

quote:

If the people who run this board want me off, they'll do it.

And I doubt that you crying that someone is taking the piss on you will do the trick.

No, the only person that will be responsible for you leaving the board is yourself, by your actions. If you continue to troll that's your own fault. If you keep doing it people will keep calling you on it. Other people from Toronto have indicated they don't think it will work & they aren't in favour of it. They said their piece, discussed the reasons & left it at that. And nobody has a problem with those people.

If you can indicate a legitimate for constantly posting the predictions of doom of MLS and National team soccer in Toronto at every available opportunity, then perhaps people might drop the troll label at you. Several people has asked you why you continue on this crusade of doom and gloom, but have never gotten a response funnily enough. Are you hoping that MLSE will read your multitude of posts and suddenly change their minds? The CSA perhaps? Are you hoping that by reading your posts the groundswell of enthusiam amongst Toronto posters will be killed dead once they read your posts and we'll drop the new MLS supporters movement instantly? You let us know a legitimate reason for the constant posts repeating the same subject, and how its not designed as a futile attempt to wind people up, and perhaps the troll descriptions might just cease. Its up to you.

quote:

AND I am taking the piss on you. You're too big a target not to. You represent the worst element in the canadian soccer community.

You are the classic example of the inverse ratio between the size of the mouth and the size of the brain. You are succeeding only in taking the piss out of yourself with these comments. Its statements like these that just results everyone, including myself, laughing at you and perceiving you to be a joke. So, I represent the worst element of Canadian soccer eh? Someone who devotes their time and money to support it every way he possibly can, to the point of flying across the globe to cheer on the national team. Someone who is involved in organized soccer support for club and country. Yeah, we could sure do with less people like me in Canadian soccer.

By the way - the last sentence of the last paragraph - THAT is sarcasm.

quote:

The classic back seat driver and you started the name calling and then you whine when someone call you one.

Uh, no actually you started the name-calling with your crack-head comment. I simply returned the "compliments". You don't see me throwing out insults back at anyone else on this board, and that's for a reason. They aren't throwing any my way to begin with. You have tried to ridicule others and have failed, resulting only in getting ridiculed in return. If you don't like it, instead of whining about it I'd suggest not trying to stir the pot in the first place. The pot being black, along with the kettle, by the way.

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Pro Lacrosse gets better rating in the states. So does college softball.

Show me the figures in a link and I'll believe you. I don't think I've ever seen the MLL (field lacrosse) promoted by ESPN or any other network, nor would I guess the NLL (box lacrosse) gets numbers in the US that exceed overall soccer numbers, particularly considering most TV deal for the NLL in the US are local networks.

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

250 Million Lose? Yes look at page 47 of this great law thingy based on MLS statements in a court:

www.law.nyu.edu/alumni/reunion2005/documents/MajorLeagueSuckers.pdf

...which also a good read on the MLS monopoly and how their screwing their players...

If you read the entire paper it is a critical analysis of the decision by Major League Soccer's players to take anti-trust action (promoted and funded by the NFL players association) versus what may have been gained by forming a collective bargaining unit.

BTW, MLS players do now have an association and have a CBA with MLS. The single-entity system is still in place and entrenched in that CBA for at least four more years. After that, now that the players have a union, who knows. It's fair to suggest MLS players, particularly bottom-rung players, are on the low end of the curve compared to other recent pro league athletes who certified almost immediately (and the paper above bears that out to an extent).

As for the losses, much of that was accrued in the early formative years of MLS when all the teams played in stadiums owned by other entities and sponsorships were a pittance. Despite attendance averages staying relatively the same since the formation of the league, the losses each year are being mitigated by improved sponsorship deals (adidas 10-year contract for example) and the soccer specific stadiums which you consider addicting.

The stadiums are addicting because Columbus and the Galaxy are showing it not only helps mitigate losses but may actually help pave the way to slight profitability. With teams in receipt of some or all of the ancillary revenues from these facilities (parking, concessions, other tenants and events) they are showing that a team can make a go of it on or near the league average in terms of attendance. At the very least, control of the venue helps mitigate the losses and under SEM, if Toronto is losing $1 million per year but the league overall gains break-even status, those losses will be mitigated by that collective system. I would suspect that MLSE knows they do no have to break even on the soccer operation side of this whole venture if the stadium is successful as an overall venue and MLS continues to show growth in terms of its financial picture.

For the record, what do I think they'll average? I'd speculate around 10,000 per game and maybe upwards of 12,000 if the team is very competitive because we all know that T.O. loves a winner. But attendance numbers can be boosted (as has been seen in MLS) by doubleheaders and other cross-promotions. So if MLSE brings in Italy to play Canada and sells 20,000 tickets are part of a double-dip with Toronto MLS, that will count as part of the MLS team's average.

BTW, I don't take exception to your point of view or your assertions, but do to your tone in terms of trying to get a rise out of people. Debate the issue with civility because I do think your point of view can provide for interesting debate.

[River City]

The Crackhead Pool

7,700 - G-Man

9,567 - River City

11,000 - Andrew W

16,000 - Gordon

[Gordon]

15,000-17,000 in the first season or MLS Toronto is a bust.

Check out some analysis here. First season usually the best and Toronto will have some capacity to fudge their numbers by hosting doubleheadrers at Skydome - this is common practice in MLS - Chivas USA, for example adding 88,000 fans for a double header to stand 4th in MLS in average attendance at 17,080, however, only 12,500 for the 15 other home games.

Edit note: Perhaps some techie can tell me why my effort failed?

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by River City

The Crackhead Pool

7,700 - G-Man

9,567 - River City

11,000 - Andrew W

Hey I'm anti-crackhead. I'm the troll pool.

As for a SSS I found this qoute from MLS bighead Garber:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/15/AR2005101500834.html

"Garber, in a telephone interview Friday, said MLS attendance is about the same as last year, but boasts new soccer-only stadiums, including one planned for D.C., improved play and a slight increase in television ratings, especially among Univision and Telemundo viewers."

So attendance is about the same as last year, but we now have more SSS's in the MLS. And a slight increase in TV viewers in the Latin community, which has always supported teams- and especailly now with Chivas...so what's next.. Celtic FC in Boston to bring out the RC Irish, maybe rating will slightly increase again...I thought we were moving away from Ghetto Clubs? and ethnic names?

The MLS is failing to capture new markets.

http://neovox.cortland.edu/stadium/stadium_12/stadium_12.html

"In most U.S. cities, Bowflex infomercials get higher ratings than MLS games, but then again, there's usually more scoring in the infomercial," writes Norman Chad of the Houston Chronicle. (3)

While Chad’s assertion is an exaggeration, the point is that Americans are not watching soccer like they are other sports. According to the Nielson TV Ratings, for every 1 person who watched last year’s MLS Cup, approximately 21 people tuned into Game 6 of the MLB World Series. (4) Compared to the 702,000 viewers of the MLS cup, 89.6 million watched this year’s Super Bowl and an unusually low average of 9.6 million saw the 2003 NBA Finals.

Again-- If Major in MLS means Major to the USL. I'll bend. But if you mean Major as in comparision to MLB or the NFL, I don't think so.

And with the MLS/USL knowledge debate in Toronto, it's like Carolina- those good folks would have no clue if shown a NHL game and a AHL and asked which is which. It's all marketing. I'm hoping that MLSE has more coin to promote soccer than the Hartwells have. And if they can't do it- no one can. What then?

And I'll pass the whole ecomonic arguement of stadia building to someone else..as said my the MLS president- attendance hasn't increased that much due to them.

"In fact, as economists Dennis Coates and Brad R. Humphreys note in a recent Cato Institute paper, there's evidence that sports stadiums can hurt local economies. Looking at the economic performance of 37 cities between 1969 and 1996, they found "the presense of pro sports teams had a statistically significant negative impact on the level of real per capita income."

Ouch.

as for MLL being no where near the MLS ratings or not being on ESPN..

ESPN has partnered with Major League Lacrosse to broadcast the 2005 Major League Lacrosse Game of the Week package on ESPN2, providing a consistent time slot for regular season games with the MLL All-Star and Championship Games featured in primetime. Last season, the New Balance Championship Game marked the first live television broadcast of an MLL game.

AND

For a single NLL All-star game on NBC- The numbers are in, and they are more than respectable, showing a 0.8 audience share, which translates into 800,000 US households. By comparison, in the same time slot, NBC's Arena Football telecasts average a 1.0 share (1,000,000 homes), and last year's ABC National Hockey League game of the week about a 1.1 .

So NLL/MLL/NHL/MLS are in the same range. Up there with college softball.

G-L

come on- give us your average attendance...

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Hey I'm anti-crackhead. I'm the troll pool.

Yeah, but I'm a soccer crackhead and I started the pool. BTW, no one's entries will be valid until your $10 are submitted to the Voyageurs. I'm assuming the same way the funds were raised for the server?