How will the format look with CPL teams?

[Obinna]

Not that I expect it yet, but I haven't heard of any proposed format once CPL kicks off next year.

I have been pondering this lately: a few thoughts...

- I want all CPL clubs included. We only have a limited number of pro clubs, so all should be in the tourney. This is a great opportunity to expand.

- Travel should be limited where possible, not only to the semi pro winners from Ontario and Quebec, but for the CPL teams. These are new franchises in a new league so we shouldn't put them under unecessary stress financially.

- If possible, we should stick to a format that would minimize the amount of change year over year. With CPL coming in, this is a chance to get it right and more or less stick to it.

- We should stay away from Groups and adopt a purely knock out style competition.

With all that being said, here is what I propose:

2019

MLS ranking 1-3 (based on 2018 league standings)

CPL ranking 4-12 (random draw)

Semi Pro 13-14 (based on ONT-QB two-legged series)

Mock up:

1-Vancouver

2-Montreal

3-Toronto

4-Halifax

5-Ottawa

6-York

7-Hamilton

8-Winnipeg

9-Calgary

10-Edmonton

11-Victoria

12-Quebec (proposed team)

13-L1O

14-PLSQ

Format:

Round 1 (play-off round)

1-3 (bye)

4-12 (bye)

13-14 play-off

Round 2

1-3 (bye)

Game one: 4 vs winner of play-off

Game two: 5 vs 12

Game three: 6 vs 11

Game four: 7 vs 10

Game five: 8 vs 9

Round 3 (Quarter Final):

Game six: 1 vs winner of game five

Game seven: 2 vs winner of game four

Game eight: 3 vs winner of game three

Game nine: winner of game two vs winner of game one

Round 4 (Semi-Final)

Game ten: winner of game 6 vs winner of game 9

Game eleven: winner of game 8 vs winner of game 7

Round 5 (Final)

winner of game 10 vs winner of game 11

*games from round 2 onward can be two-legged or simply one game with higher side hosting. That would cut the total games down for say, a CPL winner, from 8 to 4. Or the final can be one match (MLS Cup style) hosted by the higher ranked team, with the other rounds being two-legged. Or you can do something in between. Point is, a pure knockout style is the way to go as it gives the ultimate flexibility in terms of how many or few games we want teams to play. We should stay away from formats that contain groups!

As for 2020 ranking and beyond, we could simply rank teams based on 2019 Cup results. That way, MLS teams don't have a perpetual advantage. 

And as the Cup expands, we can add simply more play off rounds, so if in 2020 we add 1 new CPL team, they can play the winner or the L10-PLSQ playoff. Or let's say we add 2 new CPL teams for 2020, we can just keep one play-off round and have each semi-pro team play a CPL expansion team. Etc.

What do you guys think? What format would you propose?

[Kent]

I’ve said this multiple times, probably on the General CPL thread, but I don’t want anything that ranks MLS teams ahead of CPL teams, even in year one. For me, let’s say there are 8 CPL teams next year (including Ottawa) along with of course 3 MLS teams. So that makes 11 top tier teams, and I would fill up the next 5 spots with L1O and PLSQ teams to have a nice round 16 teams. The champs of each and maybe some preliminary tourney to determine the other 3 teams. Whether it’s single knockout or two legs I don’t have strong feelings either way. Both have pluses and minuses. Then I’d prefer to just have a straight up draw.

[Obinna]

3 hours ago, Kent said:

I’ve said this multiple times, probably on the General CPL thread, but I don’t want anything that ranks MLS teams ahead of CPL teams, even in year one. For me, let’s say there are 8 CPL teams next year (including Ottawa) along with of course 3 MLS teams. So that makes 11 top tier teams, and I would fill up the next 5 spots with L1O and PLSQ teams to have a nice round 16 teams. The champs of each and maybe some preliminary tourney to determine the other 3 teams. Whether it’s single knockout or two legs I don’t have strong feelings either way. Both have pluses and minuses. Then I’d prefer to just have a straight up draw.

A straight up draw is probably more fair. I hadn't actually considered that.

All CPL teams are new anyways, so it's not as if the MLS clubs would gain any sort of clear advantage by being ranked 1-3, but I do think they gain a disadvantage if they are drawn against each other, so perhaps a straight up draw isn't fair, in that way.

Neat idea about multiple PLSQ and L1O teams filling out the field to 16. Some concerns though:

Aside from a potential feasibility issue (these clubs mustn't have deep pockets), I would question what happens when CPL inevitably expands from 8 teams to 10, or 11 or 12 etc.?

Do you just take away the L1O and PLSQ spots and keep it a clean 16? Or do you just add the CPL clubs and change the format (again)? I would perfer getting the format right by choosing a format that accommodates future expansion with as little change as possible.

That being said, I am intrigued about bringing more of these semi-pro clubs in, but I just can't imagine many of them would have the funds to pull it off. Perhaps the top 1 or 2 would, I don't know because I am not very knowledgeable on those leagues, unfortunately.

[Blackdude]

The big problem of having more PLSQ/L1O is that not a lot of those clubs have a stadium that  satisfy CSA's rules for hosting. (Think it's either attendance, floodlights, having lines that aren't soccer lines.) So, you had the two champions who had to play their home matches at their federation's digs. I talked to Dino Rossi and from what I understood, it would be hard to have 3 L1O teams in the V's Cup. It would probably be similar in PLSQ. Maybe Quebec City could host, but they are the exception, not the rule.

I think that in the end, 3 MLS team will start in the Quarterfinals alongside 1 CPL team. The other 7 CPL teams will play with the winner of the play-in game between L1O and PLSQ. 

 

[SuperCanuck]

26 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

The big problem of having more PLSQ/L1O is that not a lot of those clubs have a stadium that  satisfy CSA's rules for hosting. (Think it's either attendance, floodlights, having lines that aren't soccer lines.) So, you had the two champions who had to play their home matches at their federation's digs. I talked to Dino Rossi and from what I understood, it would be hard to have 3 L1O teams in the V's Cup. It would probably be similar in PLSQ. Maybe Quebec City could host, but they are the exception, not the rule.

I think that in the end, 3 MLS team will start in the Quarterfinals alongside 1 CPL team. The other 7 CPL teams will play with the winner of the play-in game between L1O and PLSQ. 

 

You're absolutely right in the first paragraph.

However, I sure hope the MLS teams don't get to fluff their way into the competition at the end the way you've described it.  Although their skill level will undoubtedly be higher than the CPL teams for a few years, they're not any higher on the pyramid, and the scenario you painted will make the CPL look second rate.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I just hope it doesn't turn out that way.

[Blackdude]

1 minute ago, SuperCanuck said:

You're absolutely right in the first paragraph.

However, I sure hope the MLS teams don't get to fluff their way into the competition at the end the way you've described it.  Although their skill level will undoubtedly be higher than the CPL teams for a few years, they're not any higher on the pyramid, and the scenario you painted will make the CPL look second rate.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I just hope it doesn't turn out that way.

I think that this is what will happen. I do think that it can change  later and CPL teams will be able to get byes because of their play. However, it would be  hard to sell  that a club that has never played a game should get a bye instead of a club that played for the past 7 seasons. CSA rules would say that it's based on their rankings in their previous season, and if you can give a bye to 4 clubs, the 4 that deserve a bye are the 4 clubs that actually played matches last year. And since Ottawa was in D2 last year, they should be behind all the MLS teams. It could change for 2020, but for 2019, I can't see HFX Wanderers get a bye instead of the Montreal Impact. 

[michaeltfc91]

2019 format =
Round 1 - 8 CPL teams, Quebec winner, Ontario winner enter
Round 2 - 5 winners from round 1 join 3 MLS teams
Semi Finals = 4 winners of round 2
Finals = 2 winners from the semi final

Fairest and easiest way to do 2019. After 2019's tournament, with more expansion and more teams, hopefully the CPL can enter the same time as MLS, but I don't see that being the case in 2019

 

[Kent]

Good point from Blackdude about the inability to host games for the PLSQ and L1O teams. For that reason maybe I'd lean towards single knockout rather than 2 legged ties. The draw determines who hosts, but if you aren't able to scrounge up a stadium to play in, you have to be the away team. I would hope that the CSA would be able to help with travel costs for amateur teams.

As for what to do with future CPL expansion, I'm not exactly sure what I would do, and maybe it would depend on how 2019 went. If it proved too challenging for the D3 teams, those spots could just be taken away. I'd prefer for expansion to continue to go deeper into the D3 level though. Maybe the preliminary tourney/round stays the same size or even grows a bit, even though the number of teams to advance to the round of 16 would be reduced.

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

Good point from Blackdude about the inability to host games for the PLSQ and L1O teams. For that reason maybe I'd lean towards single knockout rather than 2 legged ties. The draw determines who hosts, but if you aren't able to scrounge up a stadium to play in, you have to be the away team. I would hope that the CSA would be able to help with travel costs for amateur teams.

As for what to do with future CPL expansion, I'm not exactly sure what I would do, and maybe it would depend on how 2019 went. If it proved too challenging for the D3 teams, those spots could just be taken away. I'd prefer for expansion to continue to go deeper into the D3 level though. Maybe the preliminary tourney/round stays the same size or even grows a bit, even though the number of teams to advance to the round of 16 would be reduced.

I think we all would, but we are talking decades into the future I think. 

The other thing about teams 1-3 getting a bye to the QF is that it rewards the top teams. Plus it sets up for a meaningful 3rd place game after the SF round.

So excited for the 2019 edition!

[Kent]

31 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think we all would, but we are talking decades into the future I think. 

The other thing about teams 1-3 getting a bye to the QF is that it rewards the top teams. Plus it sets up for a meaningful 3rd place game after the SF round.

So excited for the 2019 edition!

Interesting point about the meaningful 3rd place game. However, to be perfectly honest, I don't really want to reward the top teams (aside from the obvious CCL inclusion). Right now it's safe to assume the top teams are MLS teams. I'd rather it be more chaotic to increase the chances of upsets, to increase the chances of a CPL team to win, so I can tell people CPL is a good league because look, they won this tournament that included MLS teams.

Whatever the format ends up being, I share your excitement about the 2019 tournament! Nations League/Gold Cup qualification, CPL season, expanded Voyageurs Cup with CPL teams. Exciting times ahead! And that isn't even including finding out what the 2022 World Cup qualification process will be.

[grande]

I might be on my own on this, but I'd like to see the PDL teams involved. WSA Winnipeg vs Valour FC in an all-Peg derby? That'd be great to see! Foothills vs Cavalry? Games like these have a potential for great atmosphere.

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, grande said:

I might be on my own on this, but I'd like to see the PDL teams involved. WSA Winnipeg vs Valour FC in an all-Peg derby? That'd be great to see! Foothills vs Cavalry? Games like these have a potential for great atmosphere.

Perhaps in theory, but I am skeptical it'd play out that way in the real world.

I think a lot of foothills fans will migrate to Cavalry FC. And besides, I can't imagine there'd be an actual rivalry. It would be like the Flames playing the Hitmen, or the Jets playing the Monarchs.

[Obinna]

44 minutes ago, Kent said:

Interesting point about the meaningful 3rd place game. However, to be perfectly honest, I don't really want to reward the top teams (aside from the obvious CCL inclusion). Right now it's safe to assume the top teams are MLS teams. I'd rather it be more chaotic to increase the chances of upsets, to increase the chances of a CPL team to win, so I can tell people CPL is a good league because look, they won this tournament that included MLS teams.

Whatever the format ends up being, I share your excitement about the 2019 tournament! Nations League/Gold Cup qualification, CPL season, expanded Voyageurs Cup with CPL teams. Exciting times ahead! And that isn't even including finding out what the 2022 World Cup qualification process will be.

How would you determine rankings for 2020? Cup results from 2019? Random draw every year?

[Kent]

5 hours ago, Obinna said:

How would you determine rankings for 2020? Cup results from 2019? Random draw every year?

Random draw every year. Ideally either nobody from the first tier gets a bye, or they all do. Like how the FA Cup (and likely most/all others, but that’s the one I’m most familiar with) have the EPL teams enter in the same round and it’s all a random draw.

[SuperCanuck]

18 hours ago, Blackdude said:

I think that this is what will happen. I do think that it can change  later and CPL teams will be able to get byes because of their play. However, it would be  hard to sell  that a club that has never played a game should get a bye instead of a club that played for the past 7 seasons. CSA rules would say that it's based on their rankings in their previous season, and if you can give a bye to 4 clubs, the 4 that deserve a bye are the 4 clubs that actually played matches last year. And since Ottawa was in D2 last year, they should be behind all the MLS teams. It could change for 2020, but for 2019, I can't see HFX Wanderers get a bye instead of the Montreal Impact. 

Sorry.  I was thinking in the future, but didn't make myself clear, and assumed you were somehow inside my head and thinking the same thing.  

Of course, for the first season it makes sense as you described it.  Thank you.

[Ansem]

Sorry to be cold...

Any talks of MLS teams getting "bye" ahead of CPL is weak

[Blackdude]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Sorry to be cold...

Any talks of MLS teams getting "bye" ahead of CPL is weak

Any talks of CPL teams getting "bye" ahead of MLS is weak. 

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Blackdude said:

Any talks of CPL teams getting "bye" ahead of MLS is weak. 

How about they all start at the same level

[Blackdude]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

How about they all start at the same level

I think you have to reward teams from their previous year and most CPL teams played 0 matches this year. Why should they be rewarded? 

[Ansem]

50 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

I think you have to reward teams from their previous year and most CPL teams played 0 matches this year. Why should they be rewarded? 

If MLS teams are the best then they have nothing to worry about by entering at the same time as CPL teams, no? 

We don't need to copy the US open Cup. Let us be different and have a random draw and see what happens. The tournament would be more exciting. The goal is to put on a show for the fans. 

Besides, the Canadian Championship isn't a big draw, it need to change its format and having CPL teams eliminating each other so one of them qualifies for the semi-finals with MLS is same old stuff, different day. Not a great way to improve the tournament or draw more fans 

[Blackdude]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

If MLS teams are the best then they have nothing to worry about by entering at the same time as CPL teams, no? 

We don't need to copy the US open Cup. Let us be different and have a random draw and see what happens. The tournament would be more exciting.

 The goal is to put on a show for the fans.

Because they have been there. While the other teams haven't been. That's what I was saying. However, you can't undesrtand that. So I won't say more because there is no way you would understand it or you won't accept it and deny it.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Blackdude said:

Because they have been there. While the other teams haven't been. That's what I was saying. However, you can't undesrtand that. So I won't say more because there is no way you would understand it or you won't accept it and deny it.

I understand what you're saying but your putting the needs of MLS teams (playing less to focus on their campaign) ahead of the need of fans (more exciting tournament) and Canadian soccer (More CPL teams/Canadian players facing tougher opposition than just the 1 CPL team surviving previous rounds)

There lies the difference in our point of view. 

[Blackdude]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I understand what you're saying but your putting the needs of MLS teams (playing less to focus on their campaign) ahead of the need of fans (more exciting tournament) and Canadian soccer (More CPL teams/Canadian players facing tougher opposition than just the 1 CPL team surviving previous rounds)

There lies the difference in our point of view. 

I have MLS teams entering the QF stage. It just proves you don't understand what I said. 

[Ansem]

23 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

I have MLS teams entering the QF stage. It just proves you don't understand what I said. 

I understand you just fine but we have 8 CPL teams. How do you determine which one meets MLS teams in Quarterfinals as it's their 1st season? Would they have to qualify for that stage? I just don't see the CSA doing that personally.

8 CPL + 3 MLS + finalists of L1O and PLSQ (4) + Next best D3 team = 16 teams (random draw)

That would make a fun tournament.

 

[Blackdude]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

I understand you just fine but we have 8 CPL teams. 

8 CPL + 3 MLS + finalists of L1O and PLSQ (4) + Next best D3 team = 16 teams (random draw)

 That would make a fun tournament.

  

Ok. Did you see that I mentioned, that there is no way that you'd get that many L1O/PLSQ team able to host matches? That's the main reason why it can't happen. Go ask PLSQ and L1O clubs if they think they could host a V's Cup game and most will say that they couldn't if they didn't have help from their provincial assocation provding the pitch.