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6 hours ago, Vic said:

 

 

5-figure deal?  You could get that at McDonalds.  I know exactly what she made and she wouldn't have banked a dime living in Paris.  She went to be a footballer, to be a professional.  That's her dream.

Of course Fleming won't stop developing, nor will any other player who plays against 18-22 year old amateur players for a few months a year. But they will develop at a fraction of the rate they would in a fully professional year-round environment.

 

Well 5 figure or 6 what your real point is that Jessie Fleming should be developing at a Club that will play year round. If she was a man, she may well do so but how many women in North America get a change to develop over in Europe? I can't name many. And the thing is everyone thinks that a North American player would be much better served if they were playing in Europe and not North America like the MLS. Anytime a player comes to NA, the talk is about why they couldn't hack it over in Europe. And they have a point.

But when it comes to women's football, then its also a whole different situation. Women do not get the same opportunities to earn the money men do. If a Europe Club offered her a contract, then maybe she would be playing there, yet she is not. Education regardless of where you stand on this is still important because for these girls, their years as a pro tend to be very short. There are women retiring early from football constantly because they have to consider their future.

Having that education is that safety for a lot of women. Despite your cavalier attitude that millions of women can pay for their education. Many cannot and I can't say what the financial situation is like for Jessie Fleming, but if she can get a free education and not be a burden for her family. More power to her especially since she is in an Engineering course.

You need to give these girls a break. Its alright to demand the men try harder for their chances, because those are out there. But for women, its much harder for them to earn that big pay day. Lindsay Horan? how many Horan's have their been? None after her. Why did a club like PSG want to take a risk with an 18 year old? Because she has size, she has technical ability and they wanted that.

We don't know what decisions go into making these choices but its not just the player that is involved here, its the parents as well and if those parents thought Jessie could of gone to Europe, don't you think that would of been explored? I give every girl that goes into football all the credit in the world because its not an easy career for them. They don't make much money, leagues constantly implode or in the case of Europe, the big clubs subsidize the women's side. In fact some of them have gone out of business and players have had to step in to save the women's programs like Chelsea.

Outside of Tennis and Golf, players that have an athletic back round, there are not many sports that women can excel at and be paid a reasonable amount of money. Volleyball can net the very best players 1 million indoor and beach volleyball, women frequently make more money then men. 2 million or more for the very best. Skiing and cross country and biathlon can earn women several hundred thousand but its endorsements that make up the rest. Some cross country stars make in the millions.

In football its not as easy. How many women make millions in salary? None. Marta was the highest player at one point at 300k. Alex Morgan with her USWNT salary was over 100k but she earned several million in endorsements. But how many Alex Morgan's are out there? Not many. Even in Europe, the top paid athletes don't come close to what Morgan makes. Women's football, they don't even come close to the other major women sports for money making opportunities. Jessie Fleming is doing the right thing. If she isn't getting that big contract from Europe, then she should be going to school and looking at her future and making sure she is prepared for after football. Its the smart thing to do for her.

If we are going to continue with this, should I stop posting here? I really like Jessie Fleming, a huge fan of her play and her brilliant technical ability. But if this is going to turn into Fleming isn't getting the best development and its going to turn into a bashing of the US college system. Which I agree isn't perfect. Then I will stop posting here.

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Agreed, Forgedias, don't stop posting on here.  The Voyageurs are not a homogenous bunch when it comes to opinions.  The NCAA is not as good as some of the European women's leagues but this is not strictly about soccer but about real life.  If someone is intelligent and shows academic prowess, then it's a no brainer to go to a good school and get your education done which you'll have the potential to make a good living from until you are 60-65.  And it's not like she won't be able to play soccer in the meantime and be part of the national team for years to come.  

 

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9 hours ago, Forgedias said:

If we are going to continue with this, should I stop posting here? I really like Jessie Fleming, a huge fan of her play and her brilliant technical ability. But if this is going to turn into Fleming isn't getting the best development and its going to turn into a bashing of the US college system. Which I agree isn't perfect. Then I will stop posting here.

Ease up with the prima donna stuff.  Vic made a valid point and one that i agree with.

In my case, I don't have the answers, just posing some questions.  In the mid 60's Canada had a fairly successful short lived (seven years?) Olympic hockey program first based out of UBC and then Winnipeg obviously the first part that players could continue their education while playing high caliber international hockey.

Junior hockey players are able to play in a "professional" environment and still obtain a university education through their scholarship program.

Would it be a good idea to have a high end national training program at/near a place like UBC where there would be a large selection of good academic programs? Many of the restrictive NCAA rules would not apply and the large player pool would be able to train professionally and tour without much restriction.

This isn't a one size fits all proposition, of course this would not be suited for everybody but we have seen successes from this kind of approach especially in Australia with their NTCs.

I'm not advocating any of this, just thinking out loud.

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18 hours ago, Forgedias said:

If we are going to continue with this, should I stop posting here? I really like Jessie Fleming, a huge fan of her play and her brilliant technical ability. But if this is going to turn into Fleming isn't getting the best development and its going to turn into a bashing of the US college system. Which I agree isn't perfect. Then I will stop posting here.

Vic is coming at it from a purely football perspective, whereas you and I, and a number of others on here, prefer to look at the bigger picture and recognize that taking everything into consideration Jesse and her family have decided that this is the best choice for Jesse.

And from a purely football perspective, it seems to me that the choices she and her family have made to this point have served her rather well!

Edited by Lofty

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9 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Ease up with the prima donna stuff.  Vic made a valid point and one that i agree with.

Why did you feel it necessary to start that post with an insult? This is not about prima donnas it is about not wanting to get into pointless arguments on an Internet forum.

Edited by Lofty

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Well 5 figure or 6 what your real point is that Jessie Fleming should be developing at a Club that will play year round.

Fleming made the choice that works for her and Godspeed to her.  People do what they like.  She wants to be the best player in the world and an oceanographer (or engineer or whatever).  Go for it.

What I'm saying is if you want to be the best player in the world, if that's your dream, similarly - go for it.  Don't let your geographic options and/or social norms limit you. If you're also interested in some form of higher education another option is like Horan to do it on the side or after your career.

The decision isn't black or white.  Despite the opinions here there is no right or wrong.  It's contextual to every player.

The global women's game has progressed to the point women are starting to have to make the same decisions men in this country have had to make for decades.  The development system here is limited compared to abroad.  Stay or go becomes a valid question the best young players will have to start to consider.

Vic is coming at it from a purely football perspective

Women want, expect and even demand equality in the game.  In return, they should be expected to approach the game with equal professionalism.  I have no problem posing them questions like this.

If we are going to continue with this, should I stop posting here?

Continue with this?  Woah cowboy.  You lit the fire by quoting a 6-figure number and claiming people should not go to Europe.  I disagreed with the black/white comment for the reasons above and said "The decision is of course qualitative to the player in question" and mentioned Horan.

You posted at length, again, misleadingly about her finances and I corrected you.  And mentioned that like med school is better for doctors than playing soccer, playing soccer is better for soccer players than studying medicine.

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39 minutes ago, Vic said:

 

 

Fleming made the choice that works for her and Godspeed to her.  People do what they like.  She wants to be the best player in the world and an oceanographer (or engineer or whatever).  Go for it.

What I'm saying is if you want to be the best player in the world, if that's your dream, similarly - go for it.  Don't let your geographic options and/or social norms limit you. If you're also interested in some form of higher education another option is like Horan to do it on the side or after your career.

The decision isn't black or white.  Despite the opinions here there is no right or wrong.  It's contextual to every player.

The global women's game has progressed to the point women are starting to have to make the same decisions men in this country have had to make for decades.  The development system here is limited compared to abroad.  Stay or go becomes a valid question the best young players will have to start to consider.

 

 

Women want, expect and even demand equality in the game.  In return, they should be expected to approach the game with equal professionalism.  I have no problem posing them questions like this.

 

 

Continue with this?  Woah cowboy.  You lit the fire by quoting a 6-figure number and claiming people should not go to Europe.  I disagreed with the black/white comment for the reasons above and said "The decision is of course qualitative to the player in question" and mentioned Horan.

You posted at length, again, misleadingly about her finances and I corrected you.  And mentioned that like med school is better for doctors than playing soccer, playing soccer is better for soccer players than studying medicine.

The money in the women's professional game is miniscule compared to the men. This is why other considerations necessarily play a much bigger part in the decision making process for talented young female football players.

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Granted.  But on the female sport pay level it's better than many.  The highest paid women are extremely well compensated and there are university age young women in Europe making six-figures per year.  Tell them they've made a bad decision.

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Oof, she kind of lost herself in that last answer.  Needs some media coaching from Crash Davis!

Still, love that she gets to do this so often.  She's becoming a natural at absorbing and directing media attention.

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15 hours ago, paul-collins said:

Oof, she kind of lost herself in that last answer.

Ha ha, yes, I noticed that too but as I was listening I couldn't remember what the question had been and when I watched again I realized why! Those were some long-winded, multi-part, meandering questions!

On an unrelated note, I really liked the UCLA strip in this match - great colours for a women's team. Nice to see women's teams pushing the boundaries like that.

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On Friday, October 21, 2016 at 3:01 PM, MrsC said:

Is that 10 goals for Fleming now? What a season for her so far.

And she isn't even a forward! It is a real boon to have a high scoring attacking midfielder in your team - just look at what Frank Lampard did for Chelsea. However, it is even more of a boon to have a brilliant so-called "number ten" playmaker in your team and I suspect that is the role we are more likely to see her playing for Canada in the future: somebody with great vision who can unlock defences with beautifully placed and weighted passes.

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16 hours ago, dsqpr said:

On an unrelated note, I really liked the UCLA strip in this match - great colours for a women's team. Nice to see women's teams pushing the boundaries like that.

Isn't that in honour of Women's Health Month?  The CFL teams wear pink one week in October for breast cancer awareness and other women's health issues.

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2 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Isn't that in honour of Women's Health Month?  The CFL teams wear pink one week in October for breast cancer awareness and other women's health issues.

Ah, that makes sense. I did wonder about the change.

I also liked Japan's strip (blue with hot pink trim) in the Women's World Cup. Again, great colours for a women's team.

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On 2016-10-25 at 2:43 AM, dsqpr said:

On an unrelated note, I really liked the UCLA strip in this match - great colours for a women's team. Nice to see women's teams pushing the boundaries like that.

Aside from this match and raising awareness for a cause, there's a sizeable number of women who don't like that kind of thing.  They see it as patronizing and gimmicky.  When the 1990 Canadian women's hockey team wore pink at the initial IIHF world championship (in which they won) many of them didn't like the idea at all, for the above reasons.

2lwok6e.jpg

Edit:  For clarity, that looks like Kim St Pierre wearing a replica of the pink jersey, she wasn't around in 1990

Edited by Joe MacCarthy

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54 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

Aside from this match and raising awareness for a cause, there's a sizeable number of women who don't like that kind of thing.  They see it as patronizing and gimmicky.

That sounds a lot like Abby Wombat and those of her ilk - always looking for something to whinge about and trying to turn everything into a feminist issue. I hope and believe that the silent majority will agree with me that a sharp looking kit is just a sharp looking kit, whatever the colour.

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4 hours ago, dsqpr said:

That sounds a lot like Abby Wombat and those of her ilk - always looking for something to whinge about and trying to turn everything into a feminist issue. I hope and believe that the silent majority will agree with me that a sharp looking kit is just a sharp looking kit, whatever the colour.

I also liked the Japan kits - they were sharp. When it comes to all pink kits I'm not a fan though. I don't really like pink and wouldn't want to wear it just because I'm a woman. I guess my perspective might be a bit different.  After so many instances of being limited to women's size pro jerseys that are either pink versions of the real thing or with a deep V neck, I feel like I've had my fill of pink. I wouldn't make a stink about one off pink charity kits, but I would never buy one.

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13 minutes ago, MrsC said:

I also liked the Japan kits - they were sharp. When it comes to all pink kits I'm not a fan though. I don't really like pink and wouldn't want to wear it just because I'm a woman. I guess my perspective might be a bit different.  After so many instances of being limited to women's size pro jerseys that are either pink versions of the real thing or with a deep V neck, I feel like I've had my fill of pink. I wouldn't make a stink about one off pink charity kits, but I would never buy one.

Yes, I guess you can have too much of a good thing. Did you not think that the UCLA kit in the video above looked sharp though? It wasn't all pink, it was hot pink shirts with white shorts. It wouldn't work for a men's team (although I seem to remember Kevin Keegan wearing pink for Hamburg - perhaps they still wear pink) so in a football context it is actually never (rarely?) seen, and I like that uniqueness as well as the colour combination and that particular shade. I can see how it would be tiresome if seen extensively in other sports though.

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On 10/26/2016 at 5:14 PM, dsqpr said:

Yes, I guess you can have too much of a good thing. Did you not think that the UCLA kit in the video above looked sharp though? 

I'm kind of indifferent to it.  I don't hate it or love it :) 

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It looks like UCLA has been dropping down the rankings, with losses to Colorado and Utah.  Unfortunately, I can't seem to get the videos on the PAC-12 site to work for me.  Anyone here have some insights on what's going on with the team?

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