Canada Games

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Your actually wrong ... Skate Canada has 13 National Sections.. Ontario has four .. which advance skaters to national championships... Quebec has effectively two sections in terms of skaters to advance to Eastern or Western challenges for the annual National Championships.

Because each sectional competition is an open entry event... the process allows for maximum success by talented atheletes.

Its a model other sports should/could follow easily.

Figure Skating = Individual = Apple

Team Sports = Team Competition = Oranges

Try Again.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by argh1

I think it shows how far CSA is behind Hockey Canada.

In non CG years there's an U-17 World Hockey Challenge with Team Atlantic, Quebec, Ontario, West and Pacific. In CG years there's no World Challenge and Provincial teams play at the Games.

Cultural divide HAHAHAH.

Team NB has played together for 2 years preparing for the CG. Where else would these players get that training. To throw that out the window to satisfy a few Upper Canadians would be an injustice.

CSA backed TFC and the National Stadium to promote elite soccer.

I've seen no benefit in NB and taking away the CG would hurt our programs.

CSA has to get it's head outta Toronto's arse and look after the Nation.

There's still no National Jr Leagues like there is in Hockey both at the Major Jr or Jr A level. There's nothing that can compare to the Telus Midget Hockey Championships. There's nothing that compares to the WJHC or even the World Jr A Challenge in hockey.

There was a Hockey Canada indentification camp in Halifax just today for the World Jr A Challenge.

When was the last time CSA even bothered to come east for an indentify any thing or anybody camp?

Hell even in Atlantic University Sports Soccer is very much the weak sister of hockey.

Don't give me the culural divide crap. CSA just doesn't get it.

To take away a national competition just because a few Upper Canadians think it's meaningless.

No build more at the Provincial level because there's more to Canada than Ontario and support is needed. Geezus go to Hockey Canada and see how a national sports govering body should be run.

A lot of the complaints were also seen by Hockey Canada in its past. The power brokers in Ontario and Quebec didn't like the idea of Bill Hunter's Edmonton Oil Kings playing in a men's senior league and then play for the memorial cup. Hunter did that since he felt the Junior leagues in the west were not strong enough at the time. With the senior leagues being of high quality at the time, Hunter felt it would led to Cup success for his team and it did.

The East told Hunter he would either have to play in the AJHL or fold his team. In response, Hunter joined with a number of teams to form the WCHL, and they were outlaws until the Memorial Cup was reorganized in 1971. What is now the WHL has won the most Cup titles of any of the three leagues. The easterners had a right to be scared. Today, you see the western Jr. A teams complain that the teams from the east aren't taking the Royal Bank Cup seriously.

It's very easy for some people to jump on the Canada Games and consider it to be useless. If they want to jump on somebody, it should be the CSA for not doing much to reorganize the youth system to have a club-style competition rather than provincial "all-star" teams. Hell, they should be jumping on all three pro teams since they have the power to push reform. Yet they won't do that since they have far too much loyalty to push for such action.

You could easily have an elite summer league such as this.

Western: Vancouver Island, Whitecaps Residency, Fraser Valley, Okanagan, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatchewan, Manitoba.

Central: TFC Academy, TR Attack, Ottawa Fury, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Quebec City, Eastern Ontario

Atlantic: Halifax, Dartmouth, Cape Breton, PEI, Newfoundland, Moncton, Fredericton, Saint John

Can be done if they effort is put in. Unfortunately, they seem to lack the energy to even try. Protecting personal turf perhaps?

[argh1]

Just a little story from today's Times&Transcript regarding the games and NB's participation.

http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/sports/article/769823

Also from L'Acadie Nouvelle

http://an.capacadie.com/sports-regionaux/2009/8/24/le-n-b-atteindra-t-il-son-objectif

And from the Telegraph-Journal a little on the NB U-18 Div 1 finals (that's the Div below Premier [}])

http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/sports/article/769611

[Vic]

Nice to see people vent and exorcise all their Upper Canada and evil from the East rage. Reminds me of that 7-page "Toronto Hated" thread.

My favourite part of the alignment above is individual teams going to Cape Breton (18,000) and the GTA (5,100,000). The GTA alone with it's one team actually has as many people as the combined cities of each of the Western and Atlantic conferences.

If I build a house in the country a mile from a hydro line, I pay for that mile of cable. If you want something pay for it. That's all anyone asks.

[argh1]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Nice to see people vent and exorcise all their Upper Canada and evil from the East rage. Reminds me of that 7-page "Toronto Hated" thread.

My favourite part of the alignment above is individual teams going to Cape Breton (18,000) and the GTA (5,100,000). The GTA alone with it's one team actually has as many people as the combined cities of each of the Western and Atlantic conferences.

If I build a house in the country a mile from a hydro line, I pay for that mile of cable. If you want something pay for it. That's all anyone asks.

I think you mean Cape Breton is 180,000 since the Cape Breton Regionial Municipality of the Sydney's and Glace Bay is 130,000 alone.

We do pay? Taxes and every member of a sports club pays registration some of which goes to a National governing body.

Now what has the CSA given back for the money..........hmmmmm

A 10,000 seater was built in Saint John nope that was for the Canada Games, Saint Mary's has a 10,000 seater......Uni money. Moncton's new 20,000 seater opens soon....nope that's because of the IAAF World Jr Track meet. Charlottetown has nice new stadium....for the Canada Games.

It's been 6 years since any Canadian National team came east and that was a U-23 Olympic Qualifier vs Virgin Islands.

C'mon there's 2 and 1/2 million of us living in these 4 little provinces. CSA has to show some interest or at least organize some camps lead by pros and pro coaches. What exactly does population have to do with the CSA acting in the interest of all the Provinces and Territories? Just another way of saying "We deserve more and the boonies deserve nothing"

Any way it's a circular argument I say we get little for our membership in CSA and you say whatever we get is money wasted.

Believe what you will. But I still believe that the CSA does little to support East Coast soccer and the time and effort CSA spent cheer-leading TFC and the National Stadium has not returned any dividends on the Right Coast. It's time the CSA acted as if they were interested in ALL of Canada. Unless you're saying that my $1 in registration fees to CSA is worth less than your $1..........

So we'll just have to disagree.

[Vic]

My guess is your fees go to the Atlantic NTC which represents a smaller group of people than any NTC in the country. If you'd rather it was removed and replaced with a stadium or more frequent international hosting lobby your rep.

You get what you pay for: nothing more, nothing less.

[Vic]

quote:you're saying that my $1 in registration fees to CSA is worth less than your $1..........

I was willing to stomach and forgive your first and second "we deserve more, others deserve less" but three strikes and you're out. The knife always cuts harder backwards than forwards. Expecting the same services and opportunities as major urban areas 20 times your size is about as clear-cut a case of "we deserve more" as it gets.

[argh1]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

I was willing to stomach and forgive your first and second "we deserve more, others deserve less" but three strikes and you're out. The knife always cuts harder backwards than forwards. Expecting the same services and opportunities as major urban areas 20 times your size is about as clear-cut a case of "we deserve more" as it gets.

And that's about as arrogant as it gets constanly using the we're the biggest argument means nothing to those that aren't in the biggest.

NTC's do they still exist you never hear anything about them. What are they providing exactly?

So we're back to the we're BIG and the we're a Provincial body that is an equal partner argument.

The Canadian dilemma lives on, two answers and neither is acceptable[]

[Vic]

Time to get back to our regularly scheduled program.

Boy's kicks off today:

MB v. ON

BC v. NWT

NB v NF

QC v. YU

One Atlantic pairing should be very close, MB/ON should be interesting, and the other two not fit for human consumption.

Four pools.

ON/MB/PEI

NB/NF/SK

QC/NS/YU

BC/AB/NWT

Top two from each go through in a 1-2 crossover. Other than BC/AB no big teams go head-to-head until the elimination round Thursday.

[ibrox]

So far no surprises:

NB and NL played to a 0-0 tie.

BC trashed NWT 5-0.

ON got by MB 2-0.

Anyone watched?

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph

Has anyone ever considered allowing more than 13 teams into the competition? That would solve a lot of problems.

BC =2

Ont = 4

Que = 3

All others = 1

You shouldn't limit competition to just teams from large metro areas. You need to develop the sport everywhere in the country and that needs exposure and experience for young players from everywhere.

I don't see how having more than 1 team from a province would cause any problems. The more players who get to play at the national level the better. The more players you have registered the more teams you get.

Your absolutly right the split you present is probably pretty acurate based on population.

The real issue is the Political Correct want to think the smallest province should get the same numbers into the event as the biggest based on population, you have seen the reactions of some here to a re-balancing to enhance true equity based on population.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Figure Skating = Individual = Apple

Team Sports = Team Competition = Oranges

Try Again.

Figure skating Synchro = team = Apple

Team Sports = Team Competition = Apples

Ps.. you might want to check the Hockey structure you will find there are three Districts in Ontario, starting with the Ottawa and District Hockey, Hockey Northwestern and the Ontario Hockey Association, if you look at the Junior A playdowns you see how regional representation is fully allowed for in a competitive playdown process.

Back to the issue of Canada Games the structure is inherently unfair if the goal is to expose the best of youth who are elite athletes to a multi-sport games.

A better process needs to be found.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by argh1

And that's about as arrogant as it gets constanly using the we're the biggest argument means nothing to those that aren't in the biggest.

NTC's do they still exist you never hear anything about them. What are they providing exactly?

So we're back to the we're BIG and the we're a Provincial body that is an equal partner argument.

The Canadian dilemma lives on, two answers and neither is acceptable[]

Equal Partner agreement ?

Interstingly fees are paid based on players registered by the provinces, voting to make decisions is gerrymandered to not allow Ontario to dominate decision making. Nothing equal especially when some provinces ( see Manitoba and NWT ) have lots of unregistered players they let play outside the house of soccer and yet provide services to too... NWT has had lots of programs who dont affliate read there AGM report and the meeting minutes to see the problems they have getting folks to cough up the ten dollar for kids and twenty dollars for adults to affliate.

[McKennan]

I saw some of the Ont/Man game, first half was very even, back and forth, couple chances each way, ONT finished the half one up. Second half, ONT pressured and controlled the play more. Their control on the turf was better then MAN and MAN was giving them to much respect and space. Could have been more then 2 nil. MAN keeper mad a couple nice stops.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Interstingly fees are paid based on players registered by the provinces, voting to make decisions is gerrymandered to not allow Ontario to dominate decision making. Nothing equal especially when some provinces ( see Manitoba and NWT ) have lots of unregistered players they let play outside the house of soccer and yet provide services to too... NWT has had lots of programs who dont affliate read there AGM report and the meeting minutes to see the problems they have getting folks to cough up the ten dollar for kids and twenty dollars for adults to affliate.

In fairness, there are plenty of players in Ontario that are unregistered too, although not by choice. They have the money in hand and are perfectly happy to pay it whichever district they are told to make the cheque payable to but their requests to become part of the mainstream are consistently stymied.

There are also plenty of sanctioned clubs that choose not to register their house league players. There is an ongoing dispute between the OSA and a club in the Windsor area about this very issue. I'm told that this is not all that uncommon.

I'm told that BC has a lot of unregistered house league players kicking about too. I don't think this is strictly a Manitoba or NWT issue.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

In fairness, there are plenty of players in Ontario that are unregistered too, although not by choice. They have the money in hand and are perfectly happy to pay it whichever district they are told to make the cheque payable to but their requests to become part of the mainstream are consistently stymied.

There are also plenty of sanctioned clubs that choose not to register their house league players. There is an ongoing dispute between the OSA and a club in the Windsor area about this very issue. I'm told that this is not all that uncommon.

I'm told that BC has a lot of unregistered house league players kicking about too. I don't think this is strictly a Manitoba or NWT issue.

Players as you well know VPjr dont join the OSA, clubs do.. the fact the OSA Districts in The GTA are refusing new clubs who want to run elite programs is not the same issue as Provincial Associations nodding and winking at un-sanctioned programs with un-registered players.

If the "academies" want to join the district they operate in they need to follow the requirements to form a club, refusal to allow them in .. when they comply fully would leave the District open to a law suit which would have success.

I do not know the details of the Academy memberships issues, I suspect failure to understand the rules on both sides has led to the impasse that is occuring.

[VPjr]

^ When it comes to the Academies, they know the rules quite well. They are not seeking full club status.

You are right...the situation with the academies is quite different than the situation that you described in some provinces but, as I mentioned, there are cases like that in Ontario. The Windsor club is one example. The OSA is not "nodding and winking" in that case (in fact, they are fighting quite hard to get them in line) but there are widely discussed stories of many other sanctioned clubs in southwestern Ontario who are not registering a large percentage of their house league kids. Of course, it could be nothing more than rumour mongering but sometimes where there is smoke there is fire.

[Free kick]

Interesting result just in: AB is leading BC 2-0. if it stands it will very likely setup a ¼ final match between BC and On. the first ever matchup between players from the two academies

[Soccerpro]

What does that result say about the Whitecaps academy?

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Soccerpro

What does that result say about the Whitecaps academy?

Good question. The Alberta players are not products of professional club academies.

Proponents of the Whitecaps academy point to the fact that its a residency program. Which is a fair and valid point to raise when comparing it to TFC in which MLS forbids such programs. But I was scratching my head a while back when it was posted here that the Whitcaps were sending some of their top teenaged prospects to other academies germany. Which seems to me to defeat the purpose of having an academy

[Soccerpro]

RE: Prospects to Germany, straight from CNNSI today: Hoffenheim in Germany has signed two U.S u-17 members but are making them attend the Whitecaps residency until they bring them over in 2010. Talka bout helping the competition...

German club Hoffenheim, the surprise of the 2008-09 Bundesliga season, has pulled a coup, landing Joseph-Claude Gyau and midfielder Charles Renken in the highest-profile signings of U.S. U-17 players since German club Bayer Leverkusen signed Landon Donovan a decade ago.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/soccer/08/26/hoffenheim-u17/index.html#ixzz0PJe2vIKa

[Free kick]

I dont like the sounds of that. To me, the purpose of an academy is to develop youth player for purposes of playing for the senior team or to earn $$$ through the transfer mkt. That is what provides the incentive for the club to develop the best talent possible .

The news that you reported accomplished neither of those things.

this is the big difference with amateur clubs because amateur clubs dont have a senior pro side and amateur clubs are not permitted to demand a transfer fee because the players pay for their registration. As far as development, the only incentive is to win the next game or the current season. This isi why pro academies CRITCAL to canada because we finally have player development with a pupose and incentive.

____

Its over BTW, AB defeats BC 2-0. So a matchup of BC versus Ont is almost certain in the ¼ finals.

[ibrox]

Not to get ahead but NS is up 1-0 on Quebec at half.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Good question. The Alberta players are not products of professional club academies.

Proponents of the Whitecaps academy point to the fact that its a residency program. Which is a fair and valid point to raise when comparing it to TFC in which MLS forbids such programs. But I was scratching my head a while back when it was posted here that the Whitcaps were sending some of their top teenaged prospects to other academies germany. Which seems to me to defeat the purpose of having an academy

Re your first point. Many established Alberta clubs have pretty highly qualified technical directors who coach the elite youth teams (in my club's case at least).

Re the residency program's sending over players to Germany, they used to have a very good explanation of the residency program goals at the Whitecaps site but I cannot find it anymore. Basically, after the first year in residency, the intent is to send players to Bundesliga U19 teams for a year for further professional development. They had specific details on what each year in the residency would typically entail.

UPDATE: Here is what I was looking for (I see it was in response to yet another negative post by you regarding the Residency players going abroad. What's up with that?)

Anyway, from over a year ago:

Take your argument up with Thomas Niendorf as getting these kids into competitive environments with pro clubs in Germany is one of the stated goals of the residency program. Straith and Porter are models of the current plan, as they are both in year 2.

From the Caps' website (my highlights

Professional Placement

Thomas Niendorf has strong ties to the European market for development relationships for Whitecaps player placement. An initial relationship has already been established with the German U19 Bundesliga.

The Whitecaps Residency program launch will include a three year development process (players sign 2+1 contracts) as follows:

1. Year: U17/U18 residency program in Vancouver.

2. Year: U19 German Bundesliga (apprentice arrangement) 3. Year: Professional team contract (mentorship)

• Players finish high school.

• Players receive proper preparation for Europe (integration with Men's team).

• Players placed according to abilities at appropriate club in Germany to secure playing time.

• Players receive first-class conditioning training while in Germany throughout playing season.

• Players are developed during two year transition period toward U20 National programs.

[masster]

quote:Originally posted by Soccerpro

What does that result say about the Whitecaps academy?

Not much. The players on the BC team are nowhere near the residency program. They are players from their Delta school program which is nothing to brag about. If they showed some promise, they would be moved to the residency team and not at the Canada Games at all.