The Success of the USL continues!

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by johnnyc

One thing that rarely gets mentioned is Montreal has set most attendance records for soccer in this country. While we all know that the largest ever attendance for a soccer game in Canada as 71,617 during the '76 Olympics, very few realize that the Manic vs. Sting semi-final is a record attendance for a Canadian club at any level. And while I might be wrong, I believe the quarter-final game against the LA Aztecs may have been the previous record.

The original Whitecaps filled BC Place a couple of times with 60k. The Manic's record is 58k and change.

[johnnyc]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

The original Whitecaps filled BC Place a couple of times with 60k. The Manic's record is 58k and change.

Well thanks for pointing that out! I'd forgotten that BC Place actually hosted the original Whitecaps. According to a Wikipedia article on the NASL Whitecaps, the first game played in BC Place was a Sounders v Whitecaps game at the attendance for that was 60,342.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver_Whitecaps_(NASL)

So, I stand corrected. At one time, we did have the record, but Vancouver has had that distinction for some time now.

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by johnnyc

For some Toronto soccer fans, it seems that Canadian soccer history begins with TFC's entry into MLS.

Yes, undoubtably "some" Toronto soccer fans are like that. I'll go further and say that that's the case for "many" Toronto soccer fans. They piss me off too. I'm happy to have them along of course but wish that they had the perspective of people who were there in the lean years. The guys in this thread though? In a few cases they were the ones who've seen the WORST that the USL has to offer and stuck it out while supporting a national team that wouldn't even play in their city.

quote:So forgive us Impact fans if we are leary of the club coughing up 40 million to MLS for the privilege of playing in a league that really isn't that much better than the USL and will result in a loss of club autonomy. While I was initially supportive of the Impact's MLS bid, it's too big a price to pay. What happens if MLS tanks like the NASL? The team will probably go too.

Not likely. TFC has proven unequivocally that there's money to be made in soccer in Toronto and there's a purpose built stadium on our waterfront that won't go without use. Honestly, if MLS went bust (as a league) there's enough solid markets with solid facilities and fanbases to ensure that something else would take its place. There's just no way MLSE, AEG, and some of the other owners wouldn't find some league to play in.

[As an aside MLS's structure is often misunderstood even by those who think it's a positive. MLS does not own the teams. Each individiual owner/operator does. However, in return for sending a proportion of their gate receipts to the league (by rule) the league provides the team with a roster of players who they pay from league funds and for which the league holds the contract and rights. That's why individual teams (TFC, LA, etc.) can make money even while the "league" loses money. MLS has many socialist aspects but it doesn't socialize the profits.]

quote: What happens if the USL tanks? Well, the club is completely autonomous and will no doubt find a way to survive in another league.

Well, I think Duane's biggest fear is that the USL folds - or even stays the same - while MLS grows and gets stronger. Where does that leave Montreal then? Any league they could play in would have to be worse than MLS, maybe significantly worse, even though it's clear that Montreal could be very successful in MLS. That would be a net loss for Canadian soccer.

I agree that there's a lot about MLS that leaves things to be desired. I wish the Impact and Vancouver could join while keeping their current structure and autonomy. Doesn't seem likely though and while reasonable people may disagree I'm mostly in the "MLS is gonna win" camp along with Duane. Basically, when you're faced with a choice between two evils it's still better to pick the lesser evil.

Or form a Canadian league but that's a whole other argument.

Finally, and this is aimed at Jeffery more than anyone else: the idea that Duane is uncritical towards TFC and MLS is, on its face, utterly laughable. Come lurk on some TFC boards for a while. What you'll find is that rather than being "uncritical" Duane actually gets on people's nerves for being TOO critical of TFC. Just because he sometimes casts his critical eye beyond T.O. shouldn't offend you. And really, you read way too much into his comments that isn't there.

[kodiakTFC]

Puerto Rico Islanders just won, so they move on to the semis. Most likely there will be 2 USL teams in the semi's. Also a possibility, although unlikely, that there will be an all USL Concacaf Champions League final!!

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by kodiakTFC

Puerto Rico Islanders just won, so they move on to the semis. Most likely there will be 2 USL teams in the semi's. Also a possibility, although unlikely, that there will be an all USL Concacaf Champions League final!!

Yes, they just scored in injury time, to take a 3-1 aggregate lead. Marathon are first place in Honduras. Another upset for the USL.

[kodiakTFC]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

Yes, they just scored in injury time, to take a 3-1 aggregate lead. Marathon are first place in Honduras. Another upset for the USL.

It was like 88th minute but still.. unreal.

[chaman]

You are way too generous about MLS's truly atrocious results in this tournament.

Twelve leagues entered. Three of the those leagues didn't seem to be competitive.

MLS finished ninth out of the nine so-called competitive leagues, earning only 23% of available points through the group stage. It finished ahead of only weak Jamaica, Nicaragua, and Belize.

It is behind (in order) Mexico, Honduras, USL-1, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, T&T, and Panama.

Results Through Group Stage of Tournament

=================================

Column #1 --- position of league among 12 leagues (1 = highest, 12 = worst)

Column #2 --- w-l-t format results across all teams in the league

Column #3 --- percentage of available points taken --- basis for ranking

Column #4 --- name of nation or league

Column #5 --- name of team

Column #6 and #7 --- home and away result if 2 game series

Column #6 through #11 --- home, home, home, away, away, away results if in group stage --- note: these are NOT ordered by time

Code:

1 15-5-7 64% Mexico Cruz Azul 6-0 6-0

Cruz Azul 2-0 4-0 1-1 1-0 0-1 0-2

UNAM 3-0 cancel

UNAM 4-4 3-0 6-0 3-1 1-1 1-1

Atlante 1-0 0-1 2-1 1-1 2-0 0-0

Santos Laguna 3-2 3-0 3-0 4-4 1-3 0-2

2 7-3-4 60% Hondur. Marathon 2-1 2-2

Marathon 2-0 2-0 2-0 4-2 1-2 1-1

Olimpia 1-1 4-0 1-2 0-1 3-1 1-1

3 7-3-6 56% USL-1 Puerto Rico 2-1 1-1

Puerto Rico 3-1 0-1 2-1 0-3 2-2 2-2

Montreal 1-0 0-0

Montreal 0-0 1-1 2-0 1-2 2-1 4-1

4 3-3-2 46% Costa R Alajuelense 1-1 1-2

5 2-3-3 38% El Salv Isidro Metapán 2-2 1-2

LA Firpo 1-1 1-0 1-1 0-1 3-2 0-3

6 2-3-3 38% Guat. Jalapa 1-0 0-5

Municipal 4-4 2-2 2-2 2-3 1-0 1-2

7 3-5-0 38% T&T Joe Public 2-1 4-0

Joe Public 0-2 1-3 1-4 1-0 0-4 0-2

8 4-7-5 35% Panama San Fran 5-0 0-1

San Fran 0-0 2-3 1-1 1-2 0-1 0-6

Tauro 2-0 1-1

Tauro 2-0 2-1 2-2 0-3 2-2 1-2

9 2-9-5 23% MLS NE Revs 0-4 1-2

Chivas USA 1-1 0-2

DC United 0-2 0-1 2-4 2-2 0-2 0-2

Houston 1-0 2-1 1-3 1-1 0-0 4-4

10 0-1-1 17% Nicar. Real Estelí 0-0 0-1

11 0-1-0 0% Jamaica Harbour View cancel 0-3

12 0-2-0 0% Belize Hankook Verdes 0-6 0-6

So far in the quarterfinals:

Houston 1-1 0-3 --- 1 out of 6 points

Atlante 3-0 1-1 --- 4 out of 6 points

Montreal 2-0 XXX --- 3 out of 3 points

Santos Laguna XXX 0-2 --- 0 out of 3 points

Puerto Rico 2-1 XXX --- 3 out of 3 points

Marathon XXX 1-2 --- 0 out of 3 points

Cruz Azul 1-0 XXX --- 3 out of 3 points

UNAM XXX 0-1 --- 0 out of 3 points

Mexico ----> 17-7-8 ----> 59&

USL-1 ----> 9-3-6 ----> 61%

MLS -----> 2-10-6 -----> 22%

Honduras -----> 7-4-4 ----> 56%

USL-1 has temporarily taken over top spot in the tournament from Mexico.

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by kodiakTFC

Puerto Rico Islanders just won, so they move on to the semis. Most likely there will be 2 USL teams in the semi's. Also a possibility, although unlikely, that there will be an all USL Concacaf Champions League final!!

I was under the impression that Montreal and Peurto Rico were on the same side of the draw and will meet in the semi's if Montreal can get out of Mexico with a result.

[SteveBeau]

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

I was under the impression that Montreal and Peurto Rico were on the same side of the draw and will meet in the semi's if Montreal can get out of Mexico with a result.

No, Montreal will face off against Atlante if they get a positive result in Mexico...Puerto-Rico will play the winner of Cruz Azul and Pumas.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by SteveBeau

No, Montreal will face off against Atlante if they get a positive result in Mexico...Puerto-Rico will play the winner of Cruz Azul and Pumas.

Which could mean and all USL or all Mexico final.. or the best result a USL v Mexico league final.

[sj]

Atlante is waiting for the winner of Impact/santos series.

Islanders played a typical away game.

absorbing lots n they did have a few chances n did put the ball n the net that wrongly call back for offside.

before scoring at the end of the game,

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

I'd still sing anti-London City songs at TFC if there were any people around who could join in.

Type on a forum if you hate London City

*tap*tap*tap*

Type on a forum if you hate London City

*tap*tap*tap*

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

I told the guys in my section multiple times before the NutCan started, that the best thing for CANADIAN soccer was anyone but TFC winning. Because everyone loves an underdog. Regardless how you slice it, it's good press.

Every point Montreal got in this tournament was a testament to the quality of football our CLUBS can produce. Getting out of the group was amazing. Getting a result even more dizzying.

IMO, TFC's talent could not succeed against a team that has chemestry going on 4 or 5 years or longer (just a guesstimate).

Ultimately, I didn't care who won the newly coveted Canadian Championship. I was most concerned with the experiment as a whole and the science provided fantastic results.

I mean, Montreal draws 55,000 for a knock out game and now Hamilton is talking USL. You think that's a mere coincidence? To the rest of the V's, did any articles pop up in your local papers regarding the potential of major/minor pro club soccer forming?

I have to think that Montreal's success is causing some business people to give 'this soccer thing' a real hard look and maybe grow the game some more.

On a last side note : If there is a Montreal v Puerto Rico final, I pray both sets of supporters get together on it and hang a giant banner proclaiming USL as the continent's best league.

[Kurosawa1555362267]

In my opinion the ball is in MLS camp. They can hide their head in the sand and say this is exceptionnal and that they don't care about Concachampions or they can tweek their rules a little (perhaps permit a bigger roster or higher salary cap) to help their teams in the tournament. Maybe the rules they have helped them become what they are (#1 soccer league in US) but maybe these rules are not needed anymore.

[Kurosawa1555362267]

In my opinion the ball is in MLS camp. They can hide their head in the sand and say this is exceptionnal and that they don't care about Concachampions or they can tweek their rules a little (perhaps permit a bigger roster or higher salary cap) to help their teams in the tournament. Maybe the rules they have helped them become what they are (#1 soccer league in US) but maybe these rules are not needed anymore.

[yankiboy]

I love MLS. I also love USL1 & USL2. I am fortunate enough to have a local MLS side (DC United) and two local USL2 sides (Crystal Palace Baltimore which I support and there is Real Maryland). I am also a rabid Puerto Rico Islanders fan so I follow USL1 really closely. I used to follow United Reserve matches as well. So here is my utterly worhtless take:

MLS is the top flight in the US. Not just because I think so but because the USSF and FIFA think so. USL1 and USL2 are the second and third, respectively. Again, not based on what I think. It is just the way that it is. Officially.

In my opinion, the gap between MLS and USL1 isn't as big as some MLS fans would like to think that it is. It is smaller than the gap between the Mexican Primera and MLS.

USL performances in the last couple of years have been great advertisment for the league:

USL2 teams knocking off MLS (reserve teams) in USOC competition (Harrisburg City-DCU/Crystal Palace-Red Bull. Palace lost to New England on penalties in the quarterfinal round).

Montreal Impact-'Nuff said.

Puerto Rico-'Nuff said.

Charleston Battery gave DC a scare in the USOC.

Seattle, before making thier move hurt MLS feelings in USOC play. Carolina took down a Chicago fire side that had starters mixed with reserves.

These are just some of the easoer examples for me to think of.

USL has done brilliantly. Obtained fantastic results with fewer resources and a lot of heart. MLS has underachieved. And enough with the salary cap and preseason complaints already. Montreal and PR coaches were brilliant with juggling their rosters last August and September and the two clubs have played very well in what is there preseason.

MLS is better than USL. It should be. For me it is like comparing the Mexican Primera to MLS. It should be better. You are paying a lot more ca$h, have greater resources. You should be able to dominate opposition that is not on the same economic level under normal circumstances when you have access to a higher talent level.

[johnnyc]

Thanks for your thoughtful response to my post, Mike. This gives me additional perspective!

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

Yes, undoubtably "some" Toronto soccer fans are like that. I'll go further and say that that's the case for "many" Toronto soccer fans. They piss me off too. I'm happy to have them along of course but wish that they had the perspective of people who were there in the lean years. The guys in this thread though? In a few cases they were the ones who've seen the WORST that the USL has to offer and stuck it out while supporting a national team that wouldn't even play in their city.

Those guys who stuck it out through the lean years deserve some accolades, since I know that most Toronto soccer clubs have never been able to draw a crowd that could generate an atmosphere, as opposed to Montreal and Vancouver. This has clearly changed with TFC, but I seriously doubt that if the league would fail that they'd show up for what we now call Tier-2 soccer, which, given the success of the USL-1 franchises in the CCL, almost seems like a misnomer.

quote:Originally posted by johnnyc

So forgive us Impact fans if we are leary of the club coughing up 40 million to MLS for the privilege of playing in a league that really isn't that much better than the USL and will result in a loss of club autonomy. While I was initially supportive of the Impact's MLS bid, it's too big a price to pay. What happens if MLS tanks like the NASL? The team will probably go too.

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

Not likely. TFC has proven unequivocally that there's money to be made in soccer in Toronto and there's a purpose built stadium on our waterfront that won't go without use. Honestly, if MLS went bust (as a league) there's enough solid markets with solid facilities and fanbases to ensure that something else would take its place. There's just no way MLSE, AEG, and some of the other owners wouldn't find some league to play in.

Sure there's money to be made with soccer in Toronto, but only if it's perceived as a top flight league that a guy like Beckham can play in, however irregularly. Historically, Toronto hasn't been supportive of its clubs at a level below that of MLS. Even in the NASL, they weren't drawing that well, probably because of the perception of the game not being up to par with the European game.

There is definitely the perception among more than a few Montrealers that, historically, Toronto soccer fans have not been very supportive of their soccer teams, with the one major exception being TFC. Montreal and Vancouver, OTOH, have always been supportive of their club teams regardless of the league they played in. So there is this sense that there is an MLS bandwagon effect going on with TFC. But if the MLS were to fail, I really doubt TFC would get anywhere near the numbers for a tier-2 game that Vancouver and Montreal get on a regular basis.

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

[As an aside MLS's structure is often misunderstood even by those who think it's a positive. MLS does not own the teams. Each individiual owner/operator does. However, in return for sending a proportion of their gate receipts to the league (by rule) the league provides the team with a roster of players who they pay from league funds and for which the league holds the contract and rights. That's why individual teams (TFC, LA, etc.) can make money even while the "league" loses money. MLS has many socialist aspects but it doesn't socialize the profits.]

Very interesting, but it still seems that this would enormously complicate matters for a team if the league folded.

quote:Originally posted by johnnyc

What happens if the USL tanks? Well, the club is completely autonomous and will no doubt find a way to survive in another league.

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

Well, I think Duane's biggest fear is that the USL folds - or even stays the same - while MLS grows and gets stronger. Where does that leave Montreal then? Any league they could play in would have to be worse than MLS, maybe significantly worse, even though it's clear that Montreal could be very successful in MLS. That would be a net loss for Canadian soccer.

I think the last 15 years of Impact history shows that there always will be a USL type of league, whether it's called A-League, APSL, or USL. To be quite frank, the attendance figures for most MLS clubs don't instill much confidence that it can grow or get stronger. Let's face it, TFC was probably the best thing to happen to MLS, better than Beckham if you ask me.

Check this out:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/soccer/20060927-9999-lz1s27goal.html

Read this and then note that while TFC splashed out a mere 10 Million for their franchise fee (please correct me if I'm wrong), the latest round of expansion requires 40 Million. It's hard not to suspect that this fee is as high as it is because the league could be in trouble.

The Impact ownership have every right to be wary of paying this high of a fee when the attendance figures for the league aren't all that impressive, with the shining exception of TFC.

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

I agree that there's a lot about MLS that leaves things to be desired. I wish the Impact and Vancouver could join while keeping their current structure and autonomy. Doesn't seem likely though and while reasonable people may disagree I'm mostly in the "MLS is gonna win" camp along with Duane. Basically, when you're faced with a choice between two evils it's still better to pick the lesser evil.

Well, since I've been able to watch the Impact over the course of 15 years and have watched them grow and contribute to the development of soccer in this province, I'd rather take the lesser of two evils also, and for me that's the devil I know. If the price weren't so steep, financially and structurally, I'd like us to be in the MLS. Otherwise, USL=1 suits me fine for now. Admittedly though, it saddens me to lose Vancouver and Seattle. These are great soccer markets.

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

Or form a Canadian league but that's a whole other argument.

It certainly is and the CSL proved it will never happen. Sad but true.

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

Finally, and this is aimed at Jeffery more than anyone else: the idea that Duane is uncritical towards TFC and MLS is, on its face, utterly laughable. Come lurk on some TFC boards for a while. What you'll find is that rather than being "uncritical" Duane actually gets on people's nerves for being TOO critical of TFC. Just because he sometimes casts his critical eye beyond T.O. shouldn't offend you. And really, you read way too much into his comments that isn't there.

That maybe so, but I have to say that as I was reading through his posts in this thread and other threads, there seemed to be a clear contempt for the Impact, not much different than what I see in Don Cherry every Saturday night. He doesn't seem to grasp that Montreal is a major soccer town and that we don't need the MLS to make us a soccer town. Quite honestly, it was his posts that moved me to post for the first time on this forum. That he could say right up until game day that he didn't think the stadium would be full showed an ignorance of what the Impact have accomplished in terms of developing soccer at a grassroots level and what it means to the average Montreal soccer fan to be playing this far in the CCL.

At any rate, I don't want to turn this into a flamewar, but this is what my impression was, rightly or wrongly.

Thanks again for your post, Mike.