Guest Jeffery S. Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 A good post by Grizzly on some of the attitudes coming out of Toronto, which have nothing to do with fan rivalries. One thing is to trash talk a bit to get the rivalry going, that is what fans do. Another thing is to be systematically disrespectful to other teams and then, under the pretext of "journalism", which some people use an euphemism for incompetence, jingoism and mental laziness, go about slagging everything that is not Toronto in the most underhanded way. TFC so far has been a lot of confetti floating in the haze, almost no substance on the pitch. But I am sure I speak for the majority of non-Toronto posters here that I would prefer for them to win the MLS, beat the crap out of every other side. I even wear a TFC shirt, not only in Barcelona, in Vancouver too (and the babes hit on me when I wear it, it is like a magnet!). Too bad there are so many TFC fans on this board who have taken the gift of an MLS franchise as the cue to act like permanent pricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 The only people talking about TFC are Impact fans. Really. Read. Please READ. God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy The only people talking about TFC are Impact fans. Really. Read. Please READ. God. Probably true but again, posting about the MTL/USL/MLS in this thread was a big mistake from you. It was always gonna be perceived as jealousy by most posters. You have made some pretty valid points (even some MTL agreed with your general feeling about MTL being better our of the USL). You just should have been using another thread. This thread was about 2 USL teams who are doing great in the CCL, so your "Small. Sample. Size" was uncalled for. In a Champions League format, it will always be a small sample size from a particular league, no need to tell us that. From what I've read on this board I actually think your points about MTL are well taken and are similar to what a lot of MTL fans were saying when Saputo decided to play hardball with the MLS. I'm in the middle of all this, I think MediaGuy should've been able to acknowledge that he was wrong with his first comment but I also think that other posters who have decided to debate with him should stop the little "your from Toronto, your just jealous" stuff when MG is addressing the question of MTL best interests. At some point, I hope to see this board discussion getting past all that regional stuff. My 0.02 $ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Hallelujah for your post, Loyola! At the end of the day, you'll find all this talk is down to rivalry between the two sets of supporters. Some points may have been overblown but I haven't found any of the discussion, unreasonable, in my opinion. And that's what these forums are all about, opinion. In fact, this talk has shown that we need more of this in the mainstream if soccer is to get a solid footing in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly BTW Rudi, as much as I always hate to be teaching you about football culture... Why do I find this sentence extremely hard to believe? And arrogant. Seriously Grizzly, what would I do without you? Maybe when you move to Toronto and ultimately become a TFC supporter you could teach the rest of us uninformed knobs how to be a real supporter. I must warn you though, there are a lot of us here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Is there too much jealousy coming from TFC fans : YES Is there too much confidence coming from MTL fans : YES Moving on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaman Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 A new pecking order? When MLS teams do well against Mexican teams in SuperLiga, MLS fans bring up the MLS-is-better-than-the-Mexican-league debate. But when USL pulls off such an upset, few claim that the American second division is truly the better league. MLS and USL teams trade jabs during the US Open Cup, although MLS teams regularly walk away with the championship. But the USL has a chance to make more noise internationally than MLS, which would be a slap in the face to the supposed American top flight. MLS had five teams alive in the CONCACAF Champions League. Neither Chivas USA nor New England got past their play-in opponents -- supposedly lesser competition from Panama and Trinidad & Tobago. Toronto FC were paired with Montreal and Vancouver in a Canadian play-in group, but the Impact went through at Toronto's expense. DC United were an embarrassment during the group stage, having no wins, five losses and a tournament-low one point to show for their efforts. Fans will point to a difficult travel itinerary and injuries as reasons for DC's poor output, but history does not care about that. History shows a 20 percent success rate for MLS in terms of simply getting to the knockout rounds. For the USL, that success rate is 100 percent. Montreal and Puerto Rico each survived their groups, and even flourished, finding themselves in the knockout rounds. Through the quarterfinal's first legs, both the Impact and the Islanders hold advantages. Like Montreal, Puerto Rico won their home leg, beating Marathon 2-1. MLS features deeper rosters, play at a supposedly higher level with stronger competition, and million-dollar players in multimillion-dollar facilities, but it is the lesser-regarded USL that is making all the noise in the CONCACAF Champions League. For those in Mexico and Central America, it may be difficult to tell which is the top-flight league in the United States. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/luis_bueno/02/27/concacaf.recap/index.html[] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyc Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 So much acrimony! Nice one, Mediaguy! You really know how to piss off Montrealers, but sadly that's about all you have at this point. The title of this thread is "The success of the USL Continues", and that's hard to argue with. Watching TFC in their first season, I was confident that the Impact and Whitecaps could play well against them or most of the other teams I was watching in MLS. There really didn't seem to be that big a difference. The overall results of the Canadian Championship prove this, and the results obtained by USL teams in the CCL show that USL clubs can compete against the best in the region from any league. You can argue that anyone who thinks the Impact can seriously compete in the MLS is delusional all you like, but it means nothing. Vancouver and Montreal are the better teams in Canada, based on RESULTS, not speculation. Now from what I can gather, MediaGuy is also suggesting that the the Impact should have coughed up the 40 million dollars to enter the MLS, even if it means losing their ability to run the club the way they want. But what this entire conversation lacks is historical perspective, and it's maddening to say the least. For some Toronto soccer fans, it seems that Canadian soccer history begins with TFC's entry into MLS. Sorry, but as someone who went to every game of the Montreal Manic's inaugural season, and then watched the NASL implode, I beg to differ. The Manic had the third highest average attendance in the NASL in their first season, about 28,000 per game if memory serves. They then drew 42,000 at the Big O who watched them beat the LA Aztecs in a shootout and advance to the semi finals of the soccer bowl. Then, I think it was less than a week later, the Manic set the Canadian record for attendance at a club game, drawing 58,542 fans who watched them beat the eventual champions, the Chicago Sting. It was a sublime moment for all soccer fans in this city. They even drew between 11-15,000 for their indoor games. In 1981-1982, soccer was huge in this city and the success of the Manic had everything to do with it. Then the ownership saw that it was only a matter of time before the NASL would tank, so they did something remarkably stupid - they decided that they would change the team name to Team Canada! Their reasoning was that it was the only way to ensure the survival of the club after the demise of the NASL. Needless to say, this was a disaster, but it didn't matter anyway. The league only had a year left in it, and it's taken nearly 30 years for soccer in Montreal to recover from the NASL disaster. So forgive us Impact fans if we are leary of the club coughing up 40 million to MLS for the privilege of playing in a league that really isn't that much better than the USL and will result in a loss of club autonomy. While I was initially supportive of the Impact's MLS bid, it's too big a price to pay. What happens if MLS tanks like the NASL? The team will probably go too. What happens if the USL tanks? Well, the club is completely autonomous and will no doubt find a way to survive in another league. The USL may not be a top tier league, but the Impact are a first rate club and they have done a first rate job with soccer in this province over the past 15 years, without MLS. That means a lot. It means that the kids that were going to games back in 1993 are now young adults who are still supporting the club. The Impact have given Montreal soccer fans something we've never had in this city - a soccer club with 15 years of history! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegasAlexandros1555362277 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 quote:Originally posted by chaman A new pecking order? When MLS teams do well against Mexican teams in SuperLiga, MLS fans bring up the MLS-is-better-than-the-Mexican-league debate. But when USL pulls off such an upset, few claim that the American second division is truly the better league. MLS and USL teams trade jabs during the US Open Cup, although MLS teams regularly walk away with the championship. But the USL has a chance to make more noise internationally than MLS, which would be a slap in the face to the supposed American top flight. MLS had five teams alive in the CONCACAF Champions League. Neither Chivas USA nor New England got past their play-in opponents -- supposedly lesser competition from Panama and Trinidad & Tobago. Toronto FC were paired with Montreal and Vancouver in a Canadian play-in group, but the Impact went through at Toronto's expense. DC United were an embarrassment during the group stage, having no wins, five losses and a tournament-low one point to show for their efforts. Fans will point to a difficult travel itinerary and injuries as reasons for DC's poor output, but history does not care about that. History shows a 20 percent success rate for MLS in terms of simply getting to the knockout rounds. For the USL, that success rate is 100 percent. Montreal and Puerto Rico each survived their groups, and even flourished, finding themselves in the knockout rounds. Through the quarterfinal's first legs, both the Impact and the Islanders hold advantages. Like Montreal, Puerto Rico won their home leg, beating Marathon 2-1. MLS features deeper rosters, play at a supposedly higher level with stronger competition, and million-dollar players in multimillion-dollar facilities, but it is the lesser-regarded USL that is making all the noise in the CONCACAF Champions League. For those in Mexico and Central America, it may be difficult to tell which is the top-flight league in the United States. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/luis_bueno/02/27/concacaf.recap/index.html[] You'd figure a guy writing for SI could get his facts straight. Montreal actually finished second in their group behind Atlante, not first. Also, he asserts that the Impact already know how hard it is to win in Mexico due to their 1-0 loss in Cancun but it's a moot point really. The fact is the Impact don't NEED to win to progress, a 1-0 scoreline like in Cancun would see them through. Oh, and the comment about MLS having much deeper rosters.. wtf?!? That should tell you how much he really knows about the different roster rules in the respective leagues. @ johnnyc: Top post man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorne Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Well said johnnyc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Johnnyc, your post almost brought tears to my eyes beautiful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly MLS currently is only moderately better than USL but they are far better marketed and perceived as better. The two leagues have very different strategies and it could be argued which is better but as long as MLS is perceived as the better league that is a huge advantage and the reason why many USL teams want to switch. If the current USL teams wanted to stay in USL and grow this league philosophy I could argue for it's validity but since they do not want to do this I do see that MLS appears to have a better future than USL. 100% agree. The MLS is a better league than the USL, but there is some overlap in the fact that the bottom teams in MLS are about on par with the top teams in USL. The Premier League/Championship debate is irrelevant because that is a direct promotion - relegation system. Sure the USL is the "second tier" league, but the teams are not second tier. As for whether USL teams in general should join the MLS if they have the opportunity, money and stability the answer should be a for sure yes. As Grizzly says - the marketing and media exposure of the MLS is well above the USL. The difference in marketing, TV, media attention and perception is much greater than the difference in quality on the pitch. If any USL team were to go MLS they would have difficulty rearranging their roster to fit MLS requirements, but it would be worth it. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. Results in the US Open Cup, and the Voyageurs Cup show that USL teams have the quality to battle it out with some MLS teams. These are the only competitive games between these teams and the only standpoint to go from, if you don't pay attention to these results you have no solid basis to make an opinion on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Impact Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Rudi Thankfully someone other than the bigoted neanderthal Mr. Impact has responded to me. I've had a pretty rough weekend, but I'll give it a go here. RJB (and masster too, since you responded with a similar post), I never actually said that Toronto was better than Montreal. I'd just like to point that out. My point was that I've been reading a few too many posts from Montreal fans talking about their superiority because of this Champions League run (and not necessarily on this board). My contention was that, while Montreal has proven in the CCL to be better than a lot of people thought of them, their fans (*some* of them, not even a majority, just the vocal minority) shouldn't be so quick to pull out the superiority card when they couldn't even manage to beat TFC in two tries. Yes, the same could be said of TFC vis a vis Vancouver, but as I've stated many times in this thread alone, TFC in '08 was at times really f*cking awful, and superior to very few teams (USL included). His assertion that some MTL fans are now looking at the USL through rose-coloured glasses because of the CCL run is a very valid point of view, and completely separate from TFC. The fact that a lot of you can't look past the fact that he has Toronto in his location is your problem, not his. It doesn't change the fact that the USL has had its chance to be the primary developmental tool for soccer in Canada, and has led us as a nation absolutely no where. So you guys sing about a team that isn't even participating in a game you are supposedly supporting? Wow. If people started singing about Montreal at a TFC home game vs. [Any team that isn't Montreal], I'd tell them to shut the hell up and pay attention to the actual game taking place in front of them. That's just me though. You had a rough weekend??? Is that why you were walking funny on Monday morning? Sounds like someone is PMS'ing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 BTW, Montreal lost 2-1 in Cancun and scored the first goal (another early one, courtesy of Gjertsen). A sloppy play by Braz allowed Atlante to equalize and they took the lead in the final quarter of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Daniel BTW, Montreal lost 2-1 in Cancun and scored the first goal (another early one, courtesy of Gjertsen). A sloppy play by Braz allowed Atlante to equalize and they took the lead in the final quarter of the game. I agree that the USL is much better than people give it credit for, but on the flip side Montreal only scored what should have been an own goal, and on a keeper/defensive error against Santos. Not saying they didn't deserve the win, but if you can't just discount mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Impact Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Trillium This is Grizzly posting on Trillium's computer and account. First of all noone from the Ultras (Mr. Impact is less popular wth us than Media Fool) has been posting arrogant **** here declaring how great we are. We have only been responding to jealous posts from Media Fool and others making negative comments about us and the USL. If we are attacked we will respond. We won the Canadian Championship competition fair and square. Everyone knew the rules beforehand and what it would take to win and we won. Some TFC fans claim they are better because we never beat them but by that logic another USL team is much better than they are. One could say the number of games was not sufficient to truly determine the best team but a group stage competition is less prone to upsets than a two leg head to head which is what some jealous TFC fans are claiming proves their superiority. I really don't understand what these fans are claiming. Are they completely math challenged? Does the 3rd place team in UEFA Champion's League group stage usually bitch if they beat the 2nd place team twice but lost all the rest of their matches? Remember TFC barely scraped a win against us when we were a last place team in the USL and getting our ass kicked by every other team in the USL under a coach who had completely lost the team. Then TFC could not beat us at home knowing they needed a win with a biased ref from Toronto. This does not suggest superiority. Media Fool often says show me the proof and I did show him the proof that in the last two years of the US Open Cup the results did not show that MLS and USL had a 1st and 2nd tier relationship. Several MLS teams were eliminated by USL teams. USL improved much more than MLS did on the playing field in the last couple of years, previously I will admit MLS was much better. As an Impact fan I also noticed that a lot of other USL teams especially last year who we used to beat easly were far more competitive. I personally think the MLS is the better league but the difference is not that big. The top USL teams could play MLS and do better than some of the MLS teams including TFC. Lower MLS teams like TFC would be mid-table in the USL. The problem in MLS is the salary structure. They spend most of their money on a few players who are admittedly better than anyone in USL but the rest of the supporting cast is suspect. That is why Beckham struggles with LA and plays well with Milan. I have said this before but an MLS team has 6 1st division players, 6 2nd division players and 6 3rd division players while a USL team has 18 2nd division players. If MLS started paying the lower players better money and improved their quality they would be far superior to USL. MLS currently is only moderately better than USL but they are far better marketed and perceived as better. The two leagues have very different strategies and it could be argued which is better but as long as MLS is perceived as the better league that is a huge advantage and the reason why many USL teams want to switch. If the current USL teams wanted to stay in USL and grow this league philosophy I could argue for it's validity but since they do not want to do this I do see that MLS appears to have a better future than USL. There have been a number of TFC fans who continually post negative and jealous comments about the Impact. Media Fool leads the pack. If you want to do so be my guest, it only looks bad on you. I doubt very many people on this forum who are not TFC supporters give Media Fool any credibility. I recognize that not all the TFC supporters have this attitude but most of those who don't have not chosen to respond on such threads. I think TFC has improved their team for the coming season but so have we and I certainly don't fear TFC when we are currently beating much better teams. BTW Rudi, as much as I always hate to be teaching you about football culture, every team sings about its main rival regardless against who they are playing. For example I once attended 1860 Munich against Bochum and they sang against Bayern the whole game. The only time they even acknowledged Bochum was to sing "You are sh-it just like the FCB". Never did I associate myself with the "Ultras", nor do I wish to do so. Im stating my opinion as a Montreal Impact fan. Just watch what you sing in Mexico, cause it isn't the comfy confines of BMO field you are going into. Having said that, I admire your courage aswell as that shown by other travelling Impact fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 The debate about the leagues is a good debate. MLS has marketing and exposure, and USL doesn't. That's a given, and isn't a reflection of the quality of the leagues. Personally I prefer the structure of USL, because it allows for the clubs to run their own club as they wish, without the strong arm of Don Garber making decisions on your behalf in order to help Kansas City. The centralized structure of MLS will ultimately have to disappear in order to allow the league to grow. In terms of quality, I think many people should admit(as I am doing now) that they don't watch enough of either league to be able to make a determination of which one is better. Most people here watch one or the other a lot, and watch the odd game here or there of the other one. So, if we aren't about to put our loyalties aside, we should probably agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 quote:Originally posted by RJB In terms of quality, I think many people should admit(as I am doing now) that they don't watch enough of either league to be able to make a determination of which one is better. Most people here watch one or the other a lot, and watch the odd game here or there of the other one. So, if we aren't about to put our loyalties aside, we should probably agree to disagree. Fair points but you can say that about pretty much every league in the world except for the one or two most people follow. So you have to look at where the MLS and USL players are coming from, where they are transferring, where the best NCAA players are going, etc. I think it give us an idea about the 2 leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonovision Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 quote:Originally posted by loyola Fair points but you can say that about pretty much every league in the world except for the one or two most people follow. So you have to look at where the MLS and USL players are coming from, where they are transferring, where the best NCAA players are going, etc. I think it give us an idea about the 2 leagues. That piece is interesting. Do you have any data about players transferring to Europe from USL and MLS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegasAlexandros1555362277 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Daniel BTW, Montreal lost 2-1 in Cancun and scored the first goal (another early one, courtesy of Gjertsen). A sloppy play by Braz allowed Atlante to equalize and they took the lead in the final quarter of the game. Good catch Daniel, I stand corrected. Of course, that doesn't change my assertion... a 2-1 loss away to Santos Laguna still puts the Impact through to the next round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 quote:Originally posted by jonovision That piece is interesting. Do you have any data about players transferring to Europe from USL and MLS? No, but that would be quite interesting to have those for the last 5 yrs for example. Here's a few example: MLS Maurice Edu TFC to Rangers (SPL) Brad Guzan Chivas USA to Aston Villa (EPL) Andy Welsh TFC to Blackpool (CCC) USL Ali Gerba MTL to Sundsvall (Sweeden) Sandro Grande MTL to Viking (Norway) Adrian Cann VAN to Esbjerg (Denmark) It would be nice to create such a list....maybe MediaGuy does have the time to find out about all those transferring in and out of the USL and MLS for the last few years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaman Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Garber=Maddoff 40 million for contracts that lose money every year. This approach Maddoff. The league is losing money and paying his losses with the new investors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyc Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Philippe Johnnyc, your post almost brought tears to my eyes beautiful! Gee thanks, Phillipe! Here's a link to a story which I think is relevant to this thread. http://www.potomacsoccerwire.com/news/460/5686 One thing that rarely gets mentioned is Montreal has set most attendance records for soccer in this country. While we all know that the largest ever attendance for a soccer game in Canada as 71,617 during the '76 Olympics, very few realize that the Manic vs. Sting semi-final is a record attendance for a Canadian club at any level. And while I might be wrong, I believe the quarter-final game against the LA Aztecs may have been the previous record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 quote:Originally posted by loyola It would be nice to create such a list....maybe MediaGuy does have the time to find out about all those transferring in and out of the USL and MLS for the last few years Sure. I'll see what I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawel Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 quote:Originally posted by chaman Garber=Maddoff 40 million for contracts that lose money every year. This approach Maddoff. The league is losing money and paying his losses with the new investors. Ugh.....hmmmm....ugh.....please take a business class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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