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Sack the CSA movement gaining momentum...

superbrad

By superbrad
in Men's National Teams

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loyola Newbie

loyola

Posted
Posted

"Head coach Dale Mitchell took a

very talented team to the 2007 Men’s Under-20 World Cup, the first major international soccer event ever hosted by Canada."

First, the 2007 wasn't really talented, look at where the players are playing at the moment.

Second, we've hosted the 1987 FIFA U-17 World Cup.

I have nothing against the sack the CSA and fire Mitchell stuff but let's be honest about history.

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Free kick Grand Master

Free kick

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Posted
quote:Originally posted by loyola

"Head coach Dale Mitchell took a

very talented team to the 2007 Men’s Under-20 World Cup, the first major international soccer event ever hosted by Canada."

First, the 2007 wasn't really talented, look at where the players are playing at the moment.

Second, we've hosted the 1987 FIFA U-17 World Cup.

I have nothing against the sack the CSA and fire Mitchell stuff but

That, in a nutshell, is the constant concern that I have always had with the "sack the CSA campaign". Similarly you can cite several other examples of missinformation or total lack of understanding of the sport and organziation of the sport in the bigger picture from some of these types,.

Off the top of my head here is my recollection of some of players in the starting lineup against Chile and where they are now.

- The highest profile player is no longer with his second tier club and is playing one or two leagues below where he previously was.

- The first choice fwd has left his pro club and is now playing in CIAU.

- One other is currently looking for club to play for. There is an existing thread on him on this page.

- One was released by his MLS club at the time and was supposed returned to his USL club but has not been heard from since.

- Another MF is playing in Division four in germany

- One actually moved up a level slightly from Conferenace level in england to Div 3 ( fourth tier england).

- To be fair, perhaps a few others from that team will still be eligible for 2009. So there is still hope. But few if any were starters any way given their age.

And these are just the ones that come to mind. None, that I can think of, have seen their professional pedigree improve from the time they suited up for for Canada. And compare to some known ( to canadians) other national sides like the Argentina, USA, Bra, our pro pedigree wasn't so great to begin with ( in retrospect).

Meanwhile, many of the U20 WC players from other teams are gaining recognition as stars at the world level and playing for clubs that you are likely to see on TV. Several are already on senior teams and in many cases top clubs in the tope two to three leagues in the world.

If you are going scream and holler "dump the CSa for this" or " Dump teh CSA for that". At least know what your talking about. Or, I aint listening.

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loyola Newbie

loyola

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Posted
quote:Originally posted by Free kick

That, in a nutshell, is the constant concern that I have always had with the "sack the CSA campaign". Similarly you can cite several other examples of missinformation or total lack of understanding of the sport and organziation of the sport in the bigger picture from some of these types,.

Off the top of my head here is my recollection of some of players in the starting lineup against Chile and where they are now.

- The highest profile player is no longer with his second tier club and is playing one or two leagues below where he previously was.

- The first choice fwd has left his pro club and is now playing in CIAU.

- One other is currently looking for club to play for. There is an existing thread on him on this page.

- One was released by his MLS club at the time and was supposed returned to his USL club but has not been heard from since.

- Another MF is playing in Division four in germany

- One actually moved up a level slightly from Conferenace level in england to Div 3 ( fourth tier england).

And these are just the ones that come to mind. None, that I can think of, have seen their professional pedigree improve from the time they suited up for for Canada. And compare to some known ( to canadians) other national sides like the Argentina, USA, Bra, our pro pedigree wasn't so great to begin with ( in retrospect).

Meanwhile, many of the U20 WC players from other teams are gaining recognition as stars at the world level and playing for clubs that you are likely to see on TV. Several are already on senior teams and in many cases top clubs in the tope two to three leagues in the world.

If you are going scream and holler "dump the CSa for this" or " Dump teh CSA for that". At least know what your talking about. Or, I aint listening.

Totally agree. Here's the roster for the 2007 U-20's witht heir current club situation:

1. Asmir Begovic (Portsmouth, on loan at Yeovil in League One)

2. Nana Attakora-Gyan (TFC development and playing at York U.)

3. Kent O’Connor (Eintracht Trier, 4th division Germany)

4. David Edgar (getting some rare PT at Newcastle United FC)

5. Marcus Haber (trialing with L1 and L2 clubs in England)

6. Jonathan Beaulieu-Bourgault (on loan to a 4th division club in Germany)

7. Jaime Peters (Ipswich Town FC and not getting any PT)

8. Keegan Ayre (???)

9. Andrea Lombardo (York U.)

10. Will Johnson (starter with RSL in MLS)

11. Simeon Jackson (starter in L2 in England)

12. Olivier Lacoste-Lebuis (Strasbourg reserves)

13. Stephen Lumley (???)

14. Tosaint Ricketts (still in the NCAA)

15. Cristian Nunez (MTL Impact, not getting much PT)

16. Alex Elliott (4th division in Germany)

17. Gabe Gala (TFC dev)

18. Kennedy Owusu-Ansah (4th division in Germany)

19. Michael D’Agostino (Blackpool reserves in CCC)

20. David Monsalve (MLS emergency pool keeper)

21. Zach Kalthoff (4th division in Germany, not getting much PT)

Sincerly, when you look at that you realize that we didn't have a very talented squad in 2007. Also, none of these guys have really graduated to our MNT.

If you look at Austria, they have guys like Prödl (13), Harnik (12), Kavlak (4), Hoffer (5), Junuzoviæ (5) who have Austrian MNT experience since the tournament ended and also a few other guys with Austrian Bundesliga experience.

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superbrad Newbie

superbrad

Posted
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Posted
quote:Originally posted by Free kick

That, in a nutshell, is the constant concern that I have always had with the "sack the CSA campaign". Similarly you can cite several other examples of missinformation or total lack of understanding of the sport and organziation of the sport in the bigger picture from some of these types,.

Off the top of my head here is my recollection of some of players in the starting lineup against Chile and where they are now.

- The highest profile player is no longer with his second tier club and is playing one or two leagues below where he previously was.

- The first choice fwd has left his pro club and is now playing in CIAU.

- One other is currently looking for club to play for. There is an existing thread on him on this page.

- One was released by his MLS club at the time and was supposed returned to his USL club but has not been heard from since.

- Another MF is playing in Division four in germany

- One actually moved up a level slightly from Conferenace level in england to Div 3 ( fourth tier england).

- To be fair, perhaps a few others from that team will still be eligible for 2009. So there is still hope. But few if any were starters any way given their age.

And these are just the ones that come to mind. None, that I can think of, have seen their professional pedigree improve from the time they suited up for for Canada. And compare to some known ( to canadians) other national sides like the Argentina, USA, Bra, our pro pedigree wasn't so great to begin with ( in retrospect).

Meanwhile, many of the U20 WC players from other teams are gaining recognition as stars at the world level and playing for clubs that you are likely to see on TV. Several are already on senior teams and in many cases top clubs in the tope two to three leagues in the world.

If you are going scream and holler "dump the CSa for this" or " Dump teh CSA for that". At least know what your talking about. Or, I aint listening.

Maybe they were touched by the Mitchell hand of death....[B)]

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Free kick Grand Master

Free kick

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

Have i Missed something? I thought he had been loaned out to another side in a lower division.

So only Simeon Jackson has moved up. As I thought. I really liked what I saw of his play. But he was playing Conferance level to begin with. I tend to associate Conferance with the teams full of Bankers, construction workers and the like.

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Free kick Grand Master

Free kick

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quote:Originally posted by denis

Man I'm really depressed now. I don't know how this talent will get us to 2014.

I knew going into WCQ 2010. That this has/had to be the year; for the exact reasons that you mentioned.

But who knows, the 2009 U20's may reserve some surprises, and some players from the 2003 team will still be around and have some up side left. There are actually some of those players ( for next year's team) that already have some first team playing time. Asides from Peters, who did for the 2007?

The academies are the key to everything. Otherwise your right... we are spinning our wheels

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Gian-Luca Grand Master

Gian-Luca

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

I think you can add Edgar (EPL reserves to first team minutes ) and Johnson (occasional sub for bottom of the league Dutch club to regular starter for MLS) as having moved up.

Before we get all depressed, the 2005 U20 team did not contain either Andrew Ornoch or Dejan Jakovic on the squad yet both were eligible. Possibly Tyler Hemming as well. As is so often the case a lot of Canadian players develop later than earlier since the pro opportunities in Canada are not exactly plentiful.

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Free kick Grand Master

Free kick

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Okay, but he's been playing with Impact's reserve team in the CSL, as opposed to "never heard from again". Doesn't alter your main point but it explains why I couldn't figure out who you meant.

Came accross a game summary from the Trois Rivieres Attak awhile back. Didnt recall seeing his name but I probably overlooked it. Gotta figure that its a huge step down from MLS reserves. Especially given the setup of the Impact reserve team. My sence is that they use Trois rivieres moreso as a Farm team rather than a development squad, Charles Gbeke got a spell of playing time there.

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loyola Newbie

loyola

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quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Edgar was getting playing time with NUFC in the 2006/2007 season, so I think he isn't really moving up. And I don't expect him to get much more minutes after his showing last weekend.

Johnson was also getting minutes with Heerenveen in 2006/2007 but I guess you can call it a slight improvement in his case.

Anyways, the point was to compare where most of our players from 2007 are now compare to the Chileans and Austrians players. We were clearly inferior to those 2 teams in term of talent.

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El Hombre Grand Master

El Hombre

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I knew going into WCQ 2010. That this has/had to be the year; for the exact reasons that you mentioned.

I hate reading stuff like this because it's always doom and gloom when 4 years is a helluva long time.

Part of the reason everybody was so excited about this year's team was because we have a dynamic talent like JdG but where was he 4 years ago? He was playing off and on for a middle of the table Bundesliga side. Now he's captaining a decent La Liga team. Where was Friend four years ago? Or Klukowski? Even Atiba was still in the Swedish Premier with Helsingborg and now he's a pretty important cog in a good Copenhagen team (who are probably holding him back with their transfer fee demands). Who knows who'll step to the forefront in 4 years.

Now, I'm not saying we could have someone come up through the ranks next go around that has JdG's talent, but who knows, there could be a couple that develop later that come close.

As for the talent of the U20 team, I would think the author wasn't trying to insinuate that we were the most talented team in the tournament, more that we were more talented than our record showed (I think we had the talent to score at least a goal, all things being equal). Also, if you compare that team to players on past U20 teams and where they were playing then, I thought, relatively speaking, you could consider the 2007 team one of the more talented teams we've assembled.

Or maybe my rose-coloured glasses are getting the best of me.

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VPjr Newbie

VPjr

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quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Came accross a game summary from the Trois Rivieres Attak awhile back. Didnt recall seeing his name but I probably overlooked it. Gotta figure that its a huge step down from MLS reserves. Especially given the setup of the Impact reserve team. My sence is that they use Trois rivieres moreso as a Farm team rather than a development squad, Charles Gbeke got a spell of playing time there.

Having watched 2 MLS Reserve matches and plenty of CSL matches, I'd argue that the majority of CSL matches are of similar quality and are played at a higher intensity level (excluding any match that involves Windsor or London). That being said, I don't think Nunez is any further along in his career because I'm not sure I see him featuring in the Impact's plans anytime soon.

While we are on this subject, I think TFC Reserves would be much better served withdrawing from the MLS reserve league and instead should be competing in CSL (as opposed to their U18 team). It would be good for CSL and good for TFC because it would ensure regular, good quality matches for their players. If this is not an option, I've often wondered if TFC should not buy a full fledged franchise in CSL, field a team specifically for that league but have that team train daily with TFC. This might be a loophole in the silly MLS roster rules and might allow them to bring a lot more younger Canadian (and foreign) players into the organization, pay them a reasonable wage, all the while not impacting the MLS salary cap. They could still have a Reserve Team competing in the MLS Reserve League but, in the event of international call ups, injuries, etc... they would have a pool of players that they know and train daily that they could bring up on loan as needed and, if they shine in CSL, they could possibly sign them to a senior team DEV contract. Doing this might create a competitive imbalance in CSL in the short term but it might just force the CSL to professionalize a bit more.

As for the TR/Impact relationship, I think that the Impact use TR as both a Dev team and a Farm team. They will inevitably bring young players who aren't quite ready for USL1 and play them at TR to get experience. At the same time, they'll send some players from Impact to TR if they haven't been getting regular playing time with the senior team.

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Eric Newbie

Eric

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I think all comes down to who our next U-20 coach is going to be. If he is an national or international coach.

I would say that a non british school national with an open mind and a taste for technical soccer, can do wonders for our program "Nick maybe".

Of course if the CSA brings Pekerman, then we'll be all smiling all the way to the world cup..... :D

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loyola Newbie

loyola

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quote:Originally posted by El Hombre

As for the talent of the U20 team, I would think the author wasn't trying to insinuate that we were the most talented team in the tournament, more that we were more talented than our record showed (I think we had the talent to score at least a goal, all things being equal). Also, if you compare that team to players on past U20 teams and where they were playing then, I thought, relatively speaking, you could consider the 2007 team one of the more talented teams we've assembled.

Or maybe my rose-coloured glasses are getting the best of me.

My problem with the author is that he's ignoring who we were up against. Chile was clearly a better team than us and when you consider they didn't allowed a goal until the 1/2 it might be normal we didn't score against them. Austria had also more talent than us but we played well and gave them a good fight. I think we should've scored against Congo (we shot 21 times but only 6 on target according to FIFA stats) but when you have that kind of stats in a game we dominated before Begovic sending off, I think it's hard to blame the coach for the poor finishing (it's not like he was keeping a proven goalscorer on the bench).

Comparing this team to what we had in 2005, 2003 and 2001 is irrevelant IMO because the key factor is your opposition. I don't think we've ever face 2 WYC semifinalist in the group stage before?

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loyola Newbie

loyola

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quote:Originally posted by Eric

I think all comes down to who our next U-20 coach is going to be. If he is an national or international coach.

I would say that a non british school national with an open mind and a taste for technical soccer, can do wonders for our program "Nick maybe".

Of course if the CSA brings Pekerman, then we'll be all smiling all the way to the world cup..... :D

Canadian coaches don't have a problem qualifying our U-20's for World Cups, ask James and Mitchell who are undefeated in CONCACAF U-20 games since 2001. The problem is at the world stage and I doubt an international coach would be able to do wonders when the majority of the players aren't good enough for the English or the German 3rd tier.

I think the point of bringing an international coach is different between the U-20's and the MNT.

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Eric Newbie

Eric

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

My problem with the author is that he's ignoring who we were up against. Chile was clearly a better team than us and when you consider they didn't allowed a goal until the 1/2 it might be normal we didn't score against them. Austria had also more talent than us but we played well and gave them a good fight. I think we should've scored against Congo (we shot 21 times but only 6 on target according to FIFA stats) but when you have that kind of stats in a game we dominated before Begovic sending off, I think it's hard to blame the coach for the poor finishing (it's not like he was keeping a proven goalscorer on the bench).

Comparing this team to what we had in 2005, 2003 and 2001 is irrevelant IMO because the key factor is your opposition. I don't think we've ever face 2 WYC semifinalist in the group stage before?

You have a point about the opposition Canada faced in the WC, Chile in a scale 1-10 was about 8 in quality, we were 4 and Argentina was 9.

I don't agree with your comment about the finishing by the canadian players. Last year I remember attending a workshop by Sulantay, Chile's coach at the WC and he said that the biggest project in his head, was to convince the players that they can be good on headers (something chilean players were never good at, other than some exceptions like Samorano and Salas) both offensively and defensively.

He said that he worked with them every single day he had the team available to him. He also added that he told the players here this week is going to be heading, eating, heading and sleeping, he then said "no body score on us off a header and we score a couple of goals"

So, good coaches can make things happen even when time is against them.

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