May 27 - Voyageurs Cup: Montreal vs Toronto [R]

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by RudiWhile I don't plan on wearing TFC gear to any Canada match, I think this pre-emptive animosity from some people on here towards anyone who does is incredibly childish and territorial.

I'm not even sure how this thread took this turn, but to me it just smacks of petty regionalism.

My only motive in posting guidelines or rules for behaviour in opposing stadiums is not pre-emptive animosity but to be pre-emptive against possible animosity at Canada matches or future games between Canadian teams. I personally cheer for all of the Canadian teams since we have so few, I have many friends in Toronto who are TFC fans and some are members of U-Sector as well and I personally have nothing against Toronto or TFC (maybe someone can buy me some milk and cookies at Bar 99 for being such a good boy and enlightened individual ). However, many fans of both the Impact and TFC consider our teams to be bitter rivals and do not feel such goodwill to supporters of the other team. Some of the Torontonians here are trying to portray the Ultras Montreal as the only ones guilty of this and are being very holier than thou. Rudi has called us, "the charming local band of hyper-territorial Impact supporters?" for example. The TFC fans are not so innocent and high-minded as they are portraying themselves.

The Voyageurs Cup match showed a rivalry that was much stronger and more bitter than I expected. I have fully admitted that some of our supporters went too far in their actions but many of the Toronto supporter were just as bad. Yes there were the three guys who went to Bar 99 innocently in TFC colours and meant no offence but there were also the three guys who with security at their back came into a group of Ultras and did their best to be pricks and to start s-hit. Yes a Montreal fan made a sign "I hate Toronto" and some of them sang anti-TFC stuff at the fence before the TFC fans. Did the TFC fans turn the other cheek and avoid territorialism. No, they started singing, "This is our house", I saw the video. When TFC saw some Montrealers burn a TFC scarf did they refuse in principle to respond in kind. No some U-sector members managed to steal a scarf from a Montreal fan and according to their posts on the U-sector forum are planning to hang it on the wall at the U-sector bar. Even before the incident at the fence, U-sector fans had already stolen a chair from our stadium and afterwards in the confusion managed to smuggle it out of the stadium and back to Toronto which elicited much bragging in the U-sector forums. If this is not an example of anti-social, hyper-territorial behaviour then I do not know what is. Not to mention the great deal of anti-Montreal trash talk on the U-sector site that occured both before and after the game. In light of all this I can understand that certain members of the Ultras don't want TFC and U-sector members wearing their colours to a match in our stadium. I also find it hard to take this attitude from certain TFC supporters that they are so open and accepting of other clubs fans given what happened at the game. I know that on both sides it was a minority of the members of the groups who caused the incidents and it was noone who posts here yet those people who did cause problems are still members of both groups.

For all those talking about this just being a game and we shouldn't be territorial, that is great in theory but mankind is just not like that. Man is very territorial and no sport is more territorial than soccer and this leads to both the best things of the game, the intense fan atmosphere, and the worst, hooliganism. I am not saying what is philosophically right or wrong or judging but merely trying to keep things in control. If some of you want to change the behaviour of mankind, or at the very least the attitudes of Torontonians and Montrealais, the best of luck to you, maybe you can solve the Middle-East problem while you are at it. I think the Toronto Montreal rivalry will always be heated and fierce and the best we can do is to try to control it as best as possible.

For those of you with the legal principles you are sticking to there is also such a thing as respect. When I go into the domain of a group of people be it a religious, ethnic or some other group there are things I could do that would offend them and a way of behaving that would not offend them. Often I might philosphically think that these people should not be offended by my actions but still in order to be respectful to them I do not act that way. Often I have the legal right to act the way I want but choose not to do so out of respect for people who think differently than me. Yes people have the legal right to wear TFC scarves at Bar 99 and Stade Saputo. Yes some may be of the opinion that everyone should get along regardless of what club they support or not just like all nations and races should get along. Yet the fact of the matter is that fans from other cities are guests in our stadium, in the Ultras section of the stadium and possibly our bar and should also behave like good guests. There is a certain percentage of Impact fans who would be offended given the rivalry between the teams if people wore TFC or U-sector colours in our section. Yes some may do it inadvertently with no offence intended but given some of the events detailed above some would also do it to be provocative. I highly doubt there would be any violence resulting from people wearing TFC colours at the match but I don't think it would be very good for the future relations between the groups when TFC plays in Montreal nor would it be good for Canada fan unity during the game. Additionally there is no good reason to wear club kit at a national team game. I personally am attending Canada-Jamaica in Toronto and will not wear Impact colours though I will wear my Impact colours if I am able to attend the Voyageurs Cup match in Toronto because that is a club match. And for those TFC fans sticking to the legal principle of being allowed to wear whatever you want, you know who vandalized our stadium and stole the chair, why not report them to the police and have them prosecuted if you are such a fan of legality?

I have experienced a lot hooligan incidents in the years I lived in Germany and Russia, probably far more than most people on this forum. I do like the intensity of the rivalries there but would hope that some of the worst things will not come here. Yet I also recognize there is a natural rivalry between Toronto and Montreal that will probably always exist. Both fan groups will grow in coming years especially Montreal's if we go to MLS and things will get harder to control. I personally think that the older, more experienced members of the supporters groups need to agree on some decorum of behaviour between the groups to avoid things getting out of hand. Now is the time to do it and if we can not agree to some simple rules I don't think we can expect the large numbers of future members to act appropriately. I don't think it is a very big request to respectfully ask that members of rival clubs who our coming to our bar, stadium and supporter section do so as Canada fans and don't wear club colours. It is indeed the norm throughout the world of soccer as several have pointed out. I was hoping that I would get more co-operation on this from some of the senior TFC fans but am not very satisfied with the response of many of them so far nor was this the response I was expecting. If people disagree with my approach or what I feel is the solution to this fine, I will walk away end not involve myself in this debate any more and let happen what may.

In short, my own attitude and I think I can speak for the majority of Ultras as well is that we welcome everyone to our bar, stadium and Kop who comes as a Canada fan regardless of where they are from as long as they come as Canada fans not representing their rival clubs. I hope as many people come from Toronto, U-sector and RPB as possible and look forward to drinking with them and cheering on Canada as Canada fans not as members of rival groups. Show some respect to the city and club you are visiting and you will be treated very well and we will have a great time together.

[RS]

Good Lord Grizz, how long did it take you to write all of that?

Firstly, I want to state that when I was talking about pre-emptive animosity amongst some Montreal supporters, I didn't mean you specifically, even though I had quoted you.

You've met me a number of times and you know that I don't really have time for stupidity between rival fans (even if I have defended myself and my friends on a few occasions). I will state explicitly that a much, much smaller percentage of the TFC fans present in Montreal (who were all members of one of the three big supporters groups) were actively looking to start crap when compared to the percentage of UM02 members (which was also small, but even 3 out of say 40 is a much higher percentage than 3 out of 400).

I don't really want to go through your entire <s>novel</s> post () and respond to each point, but I will say that we are all probably guilty of making far too much of this than is necessary.

That said, I will respectfully retire from this thread, and I look forward to seeing everyone on the 20th. But I will not be going to Bar 99 before or afterwards.

[Trident]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

I will state explicitly that a much, much smaller percentage of the TFC fans present in Montreal (who were all members of one of the three big supporters groups) were actively looking to start crap when compared to the percentage of UM02 members (which was also small, but even 3 out of say 40 is a much higher percentage than 3 out of 400).

See? I agree with Grizzly, but when people say stuff like that, it doesn't help things.

And in closing, we had more than 40, we haven't had 40 since the CCR, the TFC game was 150-200.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by RudiI will state explicitly that a much, much smaller percentage of the TFC fans present in Montreal (who were all members of one of the three big supporters groups) were actively looking to start crap when compared to the percentage of UM02 members (which was also small, but even 3 out of say 40 is a much higher percentage than 3 out of 400).

I think I have written quite a bit that shows that both groups were to blame for what happened but you keep coming back with stuff trying to claim that we were more to blame than the Torontonians. I don't think it is particularly productive to play the blame game but if you keep wanting to do so be a bit more accurate. There were certainly far more than 40 Ultras in our section and 400 TFC fans is at least 100 more than I would estimate. There were also over 10 000 Montreal fans in attendance compared to the 300 TFC fans so I don't think I would say that we had the highest percentage of trouble makers per capita at the game. I think it is more productive to look ahead and try and stop this stuff from happening next year.

On a personal level, since it seems like the Canada fans will be meeting at Bar 99, I find it too bad that you do not want to meet there yourself. I can guarentee that a good time will be had by all there and there will be no animosity.

[Mpenza]

Oh, hell...

RUDI! READ!

1) Some people were looking to avoid escalation between TFC and Montreal. Step one to achieve that is to avoid showing at Bar 99 when TFC plays Montreal, because some people on the Ultras side don't accept that. It was a suggestion, not by any means was it a threat or anything else of an agressive nature. Period.

2) Bar 99 will be open on June 20 and anybody will be welcome there, whatever their allegiance is, whatever they wear or don't wear, whether they go to the game or not. It's not the UM02's bar and even if it were, why the heck would we keep you out on a Canada match day? It's not like the Saint-VAG hools are going to make the trip in numbers.

3) The Ultras are not actively seeking a fight 24/7 with anybody wearing red and they are active only on IMPACT match days. That said, some of them will be there, in and around the Voyageurs section, and they expect, pretty much like everybody else, to see the T.O. guys leave the rivalry at home.

Geez... what the heck are they putting in the water over there in Toronto?

[RS]

Ok, I said I'll respectfully retire from this thread, but I've since had three people respond to me so I suppose I should address some things.

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I think I have written quite a bit that shows that both groups were to blame for what happened but you keep coming back with stuff trying to claim that we were more to blame than the Torontonians.

I won't lie, I absolutely believe this to be the case.

I find it ludicrous to suggest that there was equal blame to go around, simply because three TFC guys were heckling some UM02 under the stands. There were far more Montreal 'fans' (and I use this term loosely, because they do not represent the true fanbase) doing much worse on the other side of the stadium.

Unless you equate three douchebag TFC 'fans' yelling some obscenities behind the shield of Saputo security with what the 30 Montreal 'fans' were doing (including burning a stolen scarf, throwing rocks, bottles, coins and whatever else into a large crowd being shepherded towards them, and generally inviting a fight by blocking the only footpath away from the stadium), then yes, blame is equal on this one.

quote:Originally posted by Mpenza

Oh, hell...

RUDI! READ!

1) Some people were looking to avoid escalation between TFC and Montreal. Step one to achieve that is to avoid showing at Bar 99 when TFC plays Montreal, because some people on the Ultras side don't accept that. It was a suggestion, not by any means was it a threat or anything else of an agressive nature. Period.

2) Bar 99 will be open on June 20 and anybody will be welcome there, whatever their allegiance is, whatever they wear or don't wear, whether they go to the game or not. It's not the UM02's bar and even if it were, why the heck would we keep you out on a Canada match day? It's not like the Saint-VAG hools are going to make the trip in numbers.

3) The Ultras are not actively seeking a fight 24/7 with anybody wearing red and they are active only on IMPACT match days. That said, some of them will be there, in and around the Voyageurs section, and they expect, pretty much like everybody else, to see the T.O. guys leave the rivalry at home.

Geez... what the heck are they putting in the water over there in Toronto?

You want me to "READ" yet you continually twist my words (or even introduce words that were never written by me) in your responses to me.

Let's see...

1. The Bar 99 thing is over and done with. I'm not sure what more you want me to say on the subject.

I will tell any and everybody from U-Sector to avoid it when we're in town (just as I did that day). I don't speak for the other TFC supporters groups, they can do as they please, but I will advise them that it's not a good idea.

Whether people show up is up to them. I would hope that the odd straggler that wanders on in won't be accosted like they were last time.

2. So if someone walks in with a TFC jersey on June 20th, he'll be welcome? I highly doubt that.

3. Please link to a post where I said that the Ultras were actively seeking to fight 24/7 and that they are active only on Impact match days. If you can find a post of mine that said that, I will personally buy everyone who has posted in this thread a beer.

[Mpenza]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

2. So if someone walks in with a TFC jersey on June 20th, he'll be welcome? I highly doubt that.

3. Please link to a post where I said that the Ultras were actively seeking to fight 24/7 and that they are active only on Impact match days. If you can find a post of mine that said that, I will personally buy everyone who has posted in this thread a beer.

2. Well,let's see. Voyageurs will be there, not ultras. If you have problems with the Voyageurs, I can't help you.

3. I never meant you SAID we were looking for a fight, but you obviously are acting as if we are, by trying to make it look like you're not welcomed at the 99 on June 20, which is pure bullsh*t. So I felt the need to straighten the record once again. How the heck can you not be welcomed at the 99 when the people who don't want you there in OTHER circumstances are not even going to show up?

Quit being an ass already.

[Trident]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Unless you equate three douchebag TFC 'fans' yelling some obscenities behind the shield of Saputo security with what the 30 Montreal 'fans' were doing (including burning a stolen scarf, throwing rocks, bottles, coins and whatever else into a large crowd being shepherded towards them, and generally inviting a fight by blocking the only footpath away from the stadium), then yes, blame is equal on this one.

1. Before you said it was 40 ultras at the game in total, but now that you've been called on on that, it was 30 fans behind the fence?

Keep the story straight. It seems you like throwing numbers around now that toronto finally got the advantage in that respect, it's very hard to tell that you have a chip on your shoulder from being the weaker of the two groups for the entire existence of the Usector(excluding one year).

2. If you want to mention stolen scarves, maybe you should get rid of that video where you have an Impact scarf getting tossed around in your group of fans? As far as the video shows is that you guys have someone else's scarf and some people behind the fence are burning something.

Watch out. After reading this, I expect another half assed reply denigrating Montreal or playing the victim, before "respectfully retiring" yet again.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Trident

1. Before you said it was 40 ultras at the game in total, but now that you've been called on on that, it was 30 fans behind the fence?

Keep the story straight. It seems you like throwing numbers around now that toronto finally got the advantage in that respect, it's very hard to tell that you have a chip on your shoulder from being the weaker of the two groups for the entire existence of the Usector(excluding one year).

*Yawn*

Yes, I said there were 30 guys behind the fence. I also said that a few of them were UM02 (identifiable by their scarves and that lame ass two-stick banner that was so prominent in 114 throughout the game). In other words, not all of the idiots behind the fence were Ultras (which I've said from the beginning).

I couldn't give a rat's ass about your views on which group was "weaker" when. U-Sector started in 2000, so your math is off in regards to the number of years UM02 was "stronger". But keep trying.

quote:2. If you want to mention stolen scarves, maybe you should get rid of that video where you have an Impact scarf getting tossed around in your group of fans? As far as the video shows is that you guys have someone else's scarf and some people behind the fence are burning something.

Which was in direct response to the scarf burning that took place right in front of us.

Let's put it this way. If there were no Montreal punk "fans" messing with our group as we were being forced out of the stadium by the Gestapo security, no scarves would have been stolen at all, by either side.

Where do you think our guys got that scarf from? Hint, they didn't travel the entire circumference of the stadium to obtain it.

Next.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Mpenza

3. I never meant you SAID we were looking for a fight, but you obviously are acting as if we are, by trying to make it look like you're not welcomed at the 99 on June 20, which is pure bullsh*t.

Oh, so I never SAID you were looking for a fight, but I'm ACTING that way. That makes much more sense on a message board, where words are the only way to gauge someone's context and behaviour.

You must have cameras set up inside my house to be able to see how I'm acting from 600 km away. [8)]

I'm not going to Bar 99 on June 20th (or any other time), it's a personal choice based on the ridiculousness perpetrated on these boards, and I need not justify it to you or anyone else.

[Mpenza]

Acting as in "putting on a show" for the crowd reading this forum.

You're just trying to make the UM02 look bad by dragging them into something they have nothing to do with (the June 20 game) and crying about not being welcomed to the bar and whatnot.

The UM02 will not be there, therefore pretending not to be welcome at the 99 is just friggin non sense thrown around with no reason.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Which was in direct response to the scarf burning that took place right in front of us.

Let's put it this way. If there were no Montreal punk "fans" messing with our group as we were being forced out of the stadium by the Gestapo security, no scarves would have been stolen at all, by either side.

Next.

And I suppose the chair you stole from the stadium would still be there as well. I guess the taunting of those Montrealers at the fence inspired you guys to take it and it just magically flew down from the stands when you were all down on the ground.

BTW I was not equating the three guys behind the stands with the guys at the fence I was equating them with the three guys who came in to Bar 99 (there were seven in all but 4 of them were about 14 or 15 years old). Yes the guys at the fence shouldn't have been there taunting you but once again what was the response from the TFC fans. It is pretty hard for me to think of the TFC fans as the innocent victims when I see videos of them also taking an Impact scarf, singing "This is our house" and knowing that somewhere in this crowd is several U-sector guys smuggling a stadium chair out of the stadium. So the equation is as follows:

three of our guys acted like poorly in Bar 99 = three of your guys acting poorly behind the stands

a group of our fans taunted a group of your fans and burned a scarf = a group of your fans taunted our fans and stole a scarf and stadium chair

Security pushed the two groups together and this led to a conflict.

Rudi, if you want to continue to portray yourselves as the good guys and claim we are the bad guys we are just not going to get along either now or in the future. From what I saw both groups were equally to blame for things and the only sensible course of action is to try and prevent such things in the future.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

And I suppose the chair you stole from the stadium would still be there as well. I guess the taunting of those Montrealers at the fence inspired you guys to take it and it just magically flew down from the stands when you were all down on the ground.

BTW I was not equating the three guys behind the stands with the guys at the fence I was equating them with the three guys who came in to Bar 99 (there were seven in all but 4 of them were about 14 or 15 years old). Yes the guys at the fence shouldn't have been there taunting you but once again what was the response from the TFC fans. It is pretty hard for me to think of the TFC fans as the innocent victims when I see videos of them also taking an Impact scarf, singing "This is our house" and knowing that somewhere in this crowd is several U-sector guys smuggling a stadium chair out of the stadium. So the equation is as follows:

three of our guys acted like poorly in Bar 99 = three of your guys acting poorly behind the stands

a group of our fans taunted a group of your fans and burned a scarf = a group of your fans taunted our fans and stole a scarf and stadium chair

Security pushed the two groups together and this led to a conflict.

Rudi, if you want to continue to portray yourselves as the good guys and claim we are the bad guys we are just not going to get along either now or in the future. From what I saw both groups were equally to blame for things and the only sensible course of action is to try and prevent such things in the future.

Grizzly, the stolen chair issue is so far off course. Did it contribute to any of the stupidity that happened after the game? Because that's what we're discussing here. Hell, there are TFC fans that have stolen chairs from BMO Field, but I didn't see any fighting going on.

I'm pretty sure the pre-meditated actions of the Impact fans at the fence were not a direct result of a chair that no one knew was gone until well after the fact. So you're equating a stolen piece of plastic with nearly sparking a riot.

That's utter ridiculousness.

As for chanting "this is our house", that was also in response to the scarf burning/taunting. We were originally chanting "1-nil to the TFC" in response to those fence climbers saying stuff like "TFC sucks" and so on. Harmless stuff really, but I guess our fans chanting relatively tame stuff means that deserve to have crap thrown at them (bottles, coins, rocks, and even spit) from beyond the perimeter? You didn't put that into your equation.

I truly believe that it was the decision of those 30 idiots that decided to go completely out of their way to stand off with us after the match that led to all of the crap that happened afterwards. If they aren't there blocking our path and taunting us (and throwing crap at us), none of the ugliness goes down. You'll never convince me otherwise.

If we want to prevent stuff like that in the future, then the onus is obviously with the instigators, which wasn't the TFC fans in this case.

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

I truly believe that it was the decision of those 30 idiots that decided to go completely out of their way to stand off with us after the match that led to all of the crap that happened afterwards. If they aren't there blocking our path and taunting us (and throwing crap at us), none of the ugliness goes down. You'll never convince me otherwise.

If we want to prevent stuff like that in the future, then the onus is obviously with the instigators, which wasn't the TFC fans in this case.

I'll second everything Rudi just said. No one's claiming TFC fans are angels but trying to draw an equivalency between the behaviour at the stadium is really stretching things. If the group that came down to the visitors end hadn't GONE TO THE TROUBLE OF WALKING AROUND THE ENTIRE STADIUM TO WAIT FOR THE TFC FANS TO LEAVE or Impact security and Montreal police had moved them away before forcing the TFC fans out of the stadium there would have been no altercation outside the stadium. This argument is pretty academic but let's not blur the facts: there was a group of Impact supporters, Ultras or not, who wanted to have a confrontation and because of incompetent crowd control they were given that oppurtunity.

And seriously Grizzly: if a taunting chant of "This is our house" is all it takes to set things off there'd be warfare at most football grounds around the world. The oppurtunity to taunt home fans is half the fun of away games.

And FWIW, I don't see any problem with people wearing their club or SG scarf to a Canada game along with whatever Canada shirt they've got on. Imagining that the rivalries in this country are so volatile that I couldn't stand next to the supporter of another club while supporting Canada seems like some people posturing more than anything else to be honest. In fact I think it'd be kind of cool to see where Canada's support comes from. I don't stop being a TFC supporter at Canada games and if someone's got a problem with that it's their problem.

Mike.

[Trident]

Not all the people chose to go through that door, I wanted to go through the side exit near the ****ters, but the security pushed me and about 20-30 other people into the tunnel exit.

Obviously some wanted to go there( those 14-15 year olds there for their first(and probably last game)game, and a guy who was on his second match). But I did see incidents happening, that were neither the "30 behind the fence" or any UM02 member or other Kopist, I saw plain fans getting into fights with your fans who seem to like the sauce.

Apparently, a drunk toronto fan started shoving my dad around, even though(perhaps because?) his arm was in a cast?

We bring up the chair because it shows you weren't just at the wrong place at the wrong time, you stole at least one seat BEFORE any provocation whatsoever, so don't tell anyone you guys were just there to have innocent fun.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

I'll second everything Rudi just said. No one's claiming TFC fans are angels but trying to draw an equivalency between the behaviour at the stadium is really stretching things. If the group that came down to the visitors end hadn't GONE TO THE TROUBLE OF WALKING AROUND THE ENTIRE STADIUM TO WAIT FOR THE TFC FANS TO LEAVE or Impact security and Montreal police had moved them away before forcing the TFC fans out of the stadium there would have been no altercation outside the stadium. This argument is pretty academic but let's not blur the facts: there was a group of Impact supporters, Ultras or not, who wanted to have a confrontation and because of incompetent crowd control they were given that oppurtunity.

And seriously Grizzly: if a taunting chant of "This is our house" is all it takes to set things off there'd be warfare at most football grounds around the world. The oppurtunity to taunt home fans is half the fun of away games.

And FWIW, I don't see any problem with people wearing their club or SG scarf to a Canada game along with whatever Canada shirt they've got on. Imagining that the rivalries in this country are so volatile that I couldn't stand next to the supporter of another club while supporting Canada seems like some people posturing more than anything else to be honest. In fact I think it'd be kind of cool to see where Canada's support comes from. I don't stop being a TFC supporter at Canada games and if someone's got a problem with that it's their problem.

Mike.

Oh great, a Celtic supporter lecturing us on stadium etiquette. In case you haven't noticed there is quite a bit of warfare at football grounds throughout the world and yes it is quite often set off by taunting. Have you ever even been to a Celtic match? Your claim is even more ironic as it is the 30 Impact guys coming over and taunting you that you TFC fans are complaining about. I am sure you and your Celtic brothers would be very happy to attend a Scotland national team game at Celtic Park full of Rangers fans in full kit.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Grizzly, the stolen chair issue is so far off course. Did it contribute to any of the stupidity that happened after the game? Because that's what we're discussing here. Hell, there are TFC fans that have stolen chairs from BMO Field, but I didn't see any fighting going on.

I'm pretty sure the pre-meditated actions of the Impact fans at the fence were not a direct result of a chair that no one knew was gone until well after the fact. So you're equating a stolen piece of plastic with nearly sparking a riot.

That's utter ridiculousness.

As for chanting "this is our house", that was also in response to the scarf burning/taunting. We were originally chanting "1-nil to the TFC" in response to those fence climbers saying stuff like "TFC sucks" and so on. Harmless stuff really, but I guess our fans chanting relatively tame stuff means that deserve to have crap thrown at them (bottles, coins, rocks, and even spit) from beyond the perimeter? You didn't put that into your equation.

I truly believe that it was the decision of those 30 idiots that decided to go completely out of their way to stand off with us after the match that led to all of the crap that happened afterwards. If they aren't there blocking our path and taunting us (and throwing crap at us), none of the ugliness goes down. You'll never convince me otherwise.

If we want to prevent stuff like that in the future, then the onus is obviously with the instigators, which wasn't the TFC fans in this case.

The stolen chair is absolutely not off issue. Stealing chairs from stadiums is considered to be quite insulting to the home side throughout the football world. You are bitching about the Impact fans burning your scarf and taunting you yet before this you were engaging in the same type of behaviour without provocation. Whether the chair incident led to any problems that night is immaterial. It is an insult to the Impact fans that will lead to problems in the future and is indeed intended to do so. Not only that, there was a great deal of bragging and boasting about this trophy that you managed to steal from Montreal on the U-sector site. I didn't read any posts by you innocent, holier than thou pacifists condemning this act. In fact, I seem to recall the perpetrator of this act claiming the chair was smuggled out of the stadium in a U-sector banner that apparently was the property of Rudi himself as he wanted to give it back to you.

Nowhere have I defended the actions of this small group of individuals who came over to taunt the TFC supporters. Some of them may have been wearing Ultras scarves and some or all may have been in our section during the game. The Ultras are a pretty loose knit group and it is pretty hard to know who is actually a member or not. They went over to the fence on their own not because it was an Ultra plan to do this or they were ordered to do this by someone. The majority of the hardcore Ultras, (the guys who post here and on the Ultras forum) were still in the stadium during this incident folding up our banners. I was the first of this group to arrive and only caught the tail end of the incident and I saw the rest of them come out later oblivious that anything had happened.

The group who did go to the fence shouldn't have been there and had they not been there this wouldn't have happened. On the other hand had the TFC supporters not also reacted in an aggressive manner this also would not have happened. If someone insults me I can ignore them and not start something or I can insult them back and escalate the situation making me equally responsible for what happens. We can watch the following video posted by your own group showing the scarf burning and the TFC reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFwkRHw9TFk

Do the TFC supporters act in a peaceful non-threatening way? No they make gestures to the Impact supporters to come fight and threaten them in a similar way. When I watch the video do I see one aggressive group a threatening a peaceful group? No I see two groups of drunken fans threatening and insulting each other both behaving equally poorly. The evidence is there on the video, nothing else needs to be said.

If we (or at least those who went to the fence) have to take a slight bit more of responsibility since they were the initiators of this conflict then fine we are 60% responsible. However, the TFC supporters were also 40% responsible and it doesn't seem like any of you are willing to admit any responsibility. I have done my best to try and get some sort of dialogue going between the groups so we can try to avoid such incidents in the future. However, if you are not going to take any responsibility for your own part in this incident than I am really wasting my time and am no longer interested in any sort of dialogue with such persons.

[Winnipeg Fury]

Wow, is this thread still going ?! What the hell........time to chill boys.

Guys, let's just all meet at Bar 99 on June 20. Nobody is going to care which club you support, we are all their to support Canada. If you don't own a Canada jersey, wear a red shirt or similar jersey.

Mpenza, welcome back to the forum ! I take it from your post you are now meeting me at Bar 99 and buying me a drink.

[RS]

Grizz, the U-Sector banner does not belong to me. It's owned by the group at large. I just hold it between games.

[JayWay]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

The stolen chair is absolutely not off issue. Stealing chairs from stadiums is considered to be quite insulting to the home side throughout the football world. You are bitching about the Impact fans burning your scarf and taunting you yet before this you were engaging in the same type of behaviour without provocation. Whether the chair incident led to any problems that night is immaterial. It is an insult to the Impact fans that will lead to problems in the future and is indeed intended to do so. Not only that, there was a great deal of bragging and boasting about this trophy that you managed to steal from Montreal on the U-sector site. I didn't read any posts by you innocent, holier than thou pacifists condemning this act. In fact, I seem to recall the perpetrator of this act claiming the chair was smuggled out of the stadium in a U-sector banner that apparently was the property of Rudi himself as he wanted to give it back to you.

Nowhere have I defended the actions of this small group of individuals who came over to taunt the TFC supporters. Some of them may have been wearing Ultras scarves and some or all may have been in our section during the game. The Ultras are a pretty loose knit group and it is pretty hard to know who is actually a member or not. They went over to the fence on their own not because it was an Ultra plan to do this or they were ordered to do this by someone. The majority of the hardcore Ultras, (the guys who post here and on the Ultras forum) were still in the stadium during this incident folding up our banners. I was the first of this group to arrive and only caught the tail end of the incident and I saw the rest of them come out later oblivious that anything had happened.

The group who did go to the fence shouldn't have been there and had they not been there this wouldn't have happened. On the other hand had the TFC supporters not also reacted in an aggressive manner this also would not have happened. If someone insults me I can ignore them and not start something or I can insult them back and escalate the situation making me equally responsible for what happens. We can watch the following video posted by your own group showing the scarf burning and the TFC reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFwkRHw9TFk

Do the TFC supporters act in a peaceful non-threatening way? No they make gestures to the Impact supporters to come fight and threaten them in a similar way. When I watch the video do I see one aggressive group a threatening a peaceful group? No I see two groups of drunken fans threatening and insulting each other both behaving equally poorly. The evidence is there on the video, nothing else needs to be said.

Grizzly, you are being naive.

I've got a fair bit of experience being in hostile sports-related environments, having lived as a Leaf fan in Ottawa for four years, and now having traveled to numerous cities as a TFC fan. One thing I've learned is that when it comes to post-game taunting, it's best to keep your mouth shut. In a heated environment, with passionate, often pissed off fans involved, you can't expect verbal confrontations to stay civil. It'd be nice if fans could keep things within context and shake off any verbal barbs as part and parcel of the being in a rivalry, but it's just not going to happen. As such, any blame must go to the instigating group. There is no way the Mtl fans involved didn't know what they were getting themselves into.

When Chicago visited Toronto last year, a number of TFC confronted the Fire Ultras outside BMO, singing, taunting, and just generally getting in their face. Naturally, the Fire fans took exception, and fisticuffs kicked off. I lay the blame on our fans, just as I do the Mtl Ultras in this case. In fact, when I recognized what was about to erupt, I jumped in to restrain my friend, one of those responsible for instigating the Fire fans. He was in the wrong and had no justification for what he was about to do.

In Montreal, I did no such thing. I don't blame any of our fans for the way they behaved, especially since it was the Ultras who landed the first blow, courtesy of a flag pole to the head.

Really, I think the two groups' respective histories speak for themselves.

Toronto has taken large followings, numbering anywhere from 400 to 2,500, to five different cities. In that time, only one incident has occurred, and that was the result of a few idiot DC fans and poor security.

Montreal, on the other hand, has taken a hand-full of supporters to two different cities, and for their efforts have amassed a record of physical confrontations and aggressive behaviour.

Prior to the match, we'd gotten reports that isolated groups of TFC had been jumped earlier in the day. We'd also gotten word that the Mtl Ultras were planning to make a push into our section.

Given what we know of the group (a skin-head element), and given their history, the reports didn't seem at all far-fetched. So when I saw a group of Ultras circle the stadium in order to confront of us with a burning Toronto scarf and a "We Hate Toronto" banner, I can't say I was surprised.

I also take issue with Mpenza's continual duplicity. On one hand, he tries to paint the group as a bunch of well-meaning fans who were pushed to the brink. On the other, he has repeatedly portrayed himself as the last remaining barrier separating us (Toronto fans)from some kind of savage beat down at the hands of Montreal fans. Apparently, should Mpenza piss off, us TFC fans can look forward to rocks in the head and other added bloodshed. Which, you know, is kind of funny, because that's pretty much what we were hearing prior to this match, and look what happened...

[Trident]

quote:Originally posted by JayWay

Toronto has taken large followings, numbering anywhere from 400 to 2,500, to five different cities. In that time, only one incident has occurred, and that was the result of a few idiot DC fans and poor security.

Montreal, on the other hand, has taken a hand-full of supporters to two different cities, and for their efforts have amassed a record of physical confrontations and aggressive behaviour.

Prior to the match, we'd gotten reports that isolated groups of TFC had been jumped earlier in the day. We'd also gotten word that the Mtl Ultras were planning to make a push into our section.

Given what we know of the group (a skin-head element), and given their history, the reports didn't seem at all far-fetched. So when I saw a group of Ultras circle the stadium in order to confront of us with a burning Toronto scarf and a "We Hate Toronto" banner, I can't say I was surprised.

I also take issue with Mpenza's continual duplicity. On one hand, he tries to paint the group as a bunch of well-meaning fans who were pushed to the brink. On the other, he has repeatedly portrayed himself as the last remaining barrier separating us (Toronto fans)from some kind of savage beat down at the hands of Montreal fans. Apparently, should Mpenza piss off, us TFC fans can look forward to rocks in the head and other added bloodshed. Which, you know, is kind of funny, because that's pretty much what we were hearing prior to this match, and look what happened...

Wow...I don't even know where to start with this... Mpenza never said that if he was angry you can expect bloodshed, he tried posting things to avoid some, then after he was being insulted due to his Belgian heritage hes just said "great it, I don't care anymore, I'll stop trying to help these guys"(Loose interpretation)

But beside that, pretty much every thing you stated was false, I'll leave Grizzly to reply to it, because apparently making long posts does not frighten him.

I'll sum it up with a widely held view within the Montreal Kop-

Nobody likes us and we don't care.

But we try to make things easier... and just get pushed back by people making blanket statements, people naking statements they know nothing about, potshots at nationalities(Showing how tolerant anglo canadians are towards groups different than them) and people who simply can not even read a post properly.

[JayWay]

quote:

Wow...I don't even know where to start with this... Mpenza never said that if he was angry you can expect bloodshed, he tried posting things to avoid some, then after he was being insulted due to his Belgian heritage hes just said "great it, I don't care anymore, I'll stop trying to help these guys"(Loose interpretation)

Exact quote:

quote:

You deal with it if you like, but don't expect my help and don't come crying to me when you get hit in the head by one of the thousands of stones as big as a fist that lay under the stands at Saputo stadium.

quote:

I'll sum it up with a widely held view within the Montreal Kop-

Nobody likes us and we don't care.

You poor darlings, you!

quote:

But we try to make things easier... and just get pushed back by people making blanket statements, people naking statements they know nothing about, potshots at nationalities(Showing how tolerant anglo canadians are towards groups different than them) and people who simply can not even read a post properly.

When Montreal Ultras provoke visiting fans and attack them, it can't possibly be indicative of the group as a whole.

When one, maybe two, individuals make vague statements relating to a person's background, it's proof positive that an entire national linguistic group is intolerant.

And I seriously doubt you want to get into a debate regarding the relative histories of prejudice and bigotry on the parts of English and French Canadians. Do you lot still worship at the Church of Lionel Grouxl, by any chance?

[LUFC]

Look guys, this is getting ridiculous. It is impossible to lay 100% of the blame on one group of fans. If you want to say that Montreal fans are more responsible for the various pre and post-match incidents that occured, that's fine, but some of the blame still has to fall on the backs of TFC fans as well.

Now, let me just say that I am not an Ultra, and I have never met anyone who is an Ultra. I am more of a casual fan, I attend the games that I can, and I follow those that I cannot.

I was at this game as well, but I did not witness any of the incidents that took place. I had to leave early, so I left the stadium right at the final whistle. As I was leaving the stadium, (with a bunch of soccer moms and their families[xx(]) we could see and hear TFC fans who were leaning over from their section and who were taunting us as we left the stadium. However, nobody really reacted and we kept on trying to make our way out of the stadium.

After reading several accounts of what happened, I guess later on some Montreal fans decided to stick around and they proceed to line up along the fence outside of the exit. And then I guess, when security forced the TFC fans out of the stadium, both sets of fans clashed.

After only reading about everything that happened afterwards and not actually witnessing it first hand, maybe I am not really entitled to comment on what happened. But anyways, this is what I think:

- Were some Montreal fans at fault for lining up against the fence after the game? Yes.

- Were some TFC fans at fault for stealing a seat from the stadium? Yes.

- Were some Montreal fans at fault for burning a TFC scarf? Yes.

- Were some TFC fans at fault for retaliating and stealing a Montreal scarf? Yes.

- Was Security at fault for forcing TFC fans out of the stadium early, instead of forcing the Montreal fans lined up against the fence to go home first, and then to escort the TFC fans out? Double Yes.

As I see it, none of this would have happened had security not acted in such an unprofessional manner. But, it did happen so both sides have to take some responsibility as to what happened afterwards, by the sounds of it, maybe Montreal moreso than Toronto.

Now please, can we put this incident behind us, learn from our mistakes and move forward for the good of the game in Canada. There will always be a rivalry between Montreal and Toronto, but let's make sure that this rivalry doesn't turn violent.[]

[Mpenza]

My post was taken out of context and I must reply (which doesn't mean by any way that I will show up at the 99 on June 20, WF, sorry).

When I posted this :

You deal with it if you like, but don't expect my help and don't come crying to me when you get hit in the head by one of the thousands of stones as big as a fist that lay under the stands at Saputo stadium.

The context was the following :

1. People looking to avoid escalation.

2. Me giving them advice and suggestions on how to avoid escalation, from my vantage point in MTL.

3. People insulting me, my roots and my country.

4. Me telling them to shove my help up their asses and to not come crying if things do indeed ESCALATE and some assholes end up throwing rocks around (whether it'd be TFC or MTL fans starting that really isn't relevant in the context of rocks being thrown around).

Of course, people take everything I say as some sort of threat for some reason. As mentioned many times before, these rocks are a safety concern and I've contacted the Impact many times to have them remove them. So much for the theory of me throwing rocks at TFC fans.

Of course, if we keep playing the blame and insult game, we're not by any means close to see the light at the end of the tunnel. The next time TFC plays here is one year or so away, but we still have to show up in Toronto next month. So you keep sh*tting on the Ultras and accuse them to have started ****, thus making the anti-UM02 sentiment grow by the day, or you shut it and work towards a safer environment for everybody involved.

[Trident]

quote:Originally posted by JayWay

And I seriously doubt you want to get into a debate regarding the relative histories of prejudice and bigotry on the parts of English and French Canadians. Do you lot still worship at the Church of Lionel Grouxl, by any chance?

I'm not a francophone, but the early English settlers of Canada were much more repressive than the Quebec government is today.

The Quebec government never went and pushed and slaughtered the Metis, the RCMP did in the time of the Transcanada

The Quebec government never went and killed Inuit sled dogs, forcing a sedentary lifestyle on us, the RCMP did as recently as 60-70 years ago.

[|)]