May 27 - Voyageurs Cup: Montreal vs Toronto [R]

[youllneverwalkalone]

General point, not directed at anyone specifically:

The mod was going on recently about how this is a public forum and posters must maintain a certain amount of decorum to uphold the integrity of the Voyageur name.

Ok, whatever. Personally, I feel that if foul language makes you uncomfortable you are not cut out to be a Voyageur and you might as well figure that out sooner rather than later -but this isn't the purpose of my post.

What the mod should say to those trolls who feel persecuted. Oh wait, I think I can use the red font too: Posters need to remember where you're posting: THE VOYAGEURS - CANADIAN SOCCER SUPPORTERS.

I remember a regular poster from Montreal saying flat out that he doesn't support the Canadian MNT. Well, je me souviens, as the Quebecois like to say. This is site is our bar. It's exactly the same the concept as Bar 99. Here, Belgian supporters are the enemy.

Do I really think that all Belgians are transsexuals? No, of course not. I've never spent one second thinking of Belgium other than perhaps an idle moment sipping a Duvel. I didn't even know they had a football team until recently.

Which reminds me, it seems that everyone got what they wanted out of this thread. We should get some sleep, or we could miss the start of Belgium's group tomorrow. Oh wait, they don't have one. Never mind.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

General point, not directed at anyone specifically:

The mod was going on recently about how this is a public forum and posters must maintain a certain amount of decorum to uphold the integrity of the Voyageur name.

Ok, whatever. Personally, I feel that if foul language makes you uncomfortable you are not cut out to be a Voyageur and you might as well figure that out sooner rather than later -but this isn't the purpose of my post.

What the mod should say to those trolls who feel persecuted. Oh wait, I think I can use the red font too: Posters need to remember where you're posting: THE VOYAGEURS - CANADIAN SOCCER SUPPORTERS.

I remember a regular poster from Montreal saying flat out that he doesn't support the Canadian MNT. Well, je me souviens, as the Quebecois like to say. This is site is our bar. It's exactly the same the concept as Bar 99. Here, Belgian supporters are the enemy.

Do I really think that all Belgians are transsexuals? No, of course not. I've never spent one second thinking of Belgium other than perhaps an idle moment sipping a Duvel. I didn't even know they had a football team until recently.

Which reminds me, it seems that everyone got what they wanted out of this thread. We should get some sleep, or we could miss the start of Belgium's group tomorrow. Oh wait, they don't have one. Never mind.

This post is according to you not directed to anyone specifically and then you go on to talk about and insult Belgians? Good one! If Mpenza was coming on here to post stuff about Belgian soccer and denigrating Canadian soccer in the process then your post might have some merit but he does not. His Belgian nationality only became an issue when certain posters tried to discredit his opinions because of this. Despite your claims to the contrary, it seems like the main purpose of your post is to try to insult and inflame Mpenza. Mpenza posts here largely as an Impact supporter not a Canada supporter and unlike some of the born in Canada hyphenated Canadians who don't support Canada, he supports Belgium because he was born and raised there. I doubt some of the posts in this thread have been very helpful in making Canada a second team for him to support.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by JayWayGrizzly, you are being naive.

I've got a fair bit of experience being in hostile sports-related environments, having lived as a Leaf fan in Ottawa for four years, and now having traveled to numerous cities as a TFC fan. One thing I've learned is that when it comes to post-game taunting, it's best to keep your mouth shut. In a heated environment, with passionate, often pissed off fans involved, you can't expect verbal confrontations to stay civil. It'd be nice if fans could keep things within context and shake off any verbal barbs as part and parcel of the being in a rivalry, but it's just not going to happen. As such, any blame must go to the instigating group. There is no way the Mtl fans involved didn't know what they were getting themselves into.

When Chicago visited Toronto last year, a number of TFC confronted the Fire Ultras outside BMO, singing, taunting, and just generally getting in their face. Naturally, the Fire fans took exception, and fisticuffs kicked off. I lay the blame on our fans, just as I do the Mtl Ultras in this case. In fact, when I recognized what was about to erupt, I jumped in to restrain my friend, one of those responsible for instigating the Fire fans. He was in the wrong and had no justification for what he was about to do.

In Montreal, I did no such thing. I don't blame any of our fans for the way they behaved, especially since it was the Ultras who landed the first blow, courtesy of a flag pole to the head.

Really, I think the two groups' respective histories speak for themselves.

Toronto has taken large followings, numbering anywhere from 400 to 2,500, to five different cities. In that time, only one incident has occurred, and that was the result of a few idiot DC fans and poor security.

Montreal, on the other hand, has taken a hand-full of supporters to two different cities, and for their efforts have amassed a record of physical confrontations and aggressive behaviour.

Prior to the match, we'd gotten reports that isolated groups of TFC had been jumped earlier in the day. We'd also gotten word that the Mtl Ultras were planning to make a push into our section.

Given what we know of the group (a skin-head element), and given their history, the reports didn't seem at all far-fetched. So when I saw a group of Ultras circle the stadium in order to confront of us with a burning Toronto scarf and a "We Hate Toronto" banner, I can't say I was surprised.

I also take issue with Mpenza's continual duplicity. On one hand, he tries to paint the group as a bunch of well-meaning fans who were pushed to the brink. On the other, he has repeatedly portrayed himself as the last remaining barrier separating us (Toronto fans)from some kind of savage beat down at the hands of Montreal fans. Apparently, should Mpenza piss off, us TFC fans can look forward to rocks in the head and other added bloodshed. Which, you know, is kind of funny, because that's pretty much what we were hearing prior to this match, and look what happened...

I do agree that I have been naive but only in thinking that I could get some co-operation from you guys to try and keep relations between our groups as good as possible. I am glad you got so much experience in sports hostility living in Ottawa as a Leafs fan and managed to survive. I think Ottawans are renowned the world over for their hostility and propensity to violence. Every day must have been like a Roma derby for you.

I can accept that the initiating group may have to take some more of the blame but the reaction of the other group is very important as well. As they say, it takes two to tango and rarely are such incidents the results of the actions of only one group. About a month ago I went to an away game of the team I support, Sachsen Leipzig, in Chemnitz and there were much more serious incidents that occurred there than in the TFC-Impact game despite hundreds of riot police present. My club is not one of the hooligan clubs in Germany but will also not back down when confronted and the Chemnitz hooligans initiated a lot of stuff. However, I don't think you would find one fan of ours that would deny that we also played our role and shared a great deal of responsibility for what happened. I doubt you would find one of our fans playing the victim on an internet forum and saying it was all the Chemnitzers fault. If clubs and supporters groups are not willing or man enough to take responsibility for their own actions then there is no way to reach any sort of understanding between them and other groups.

In cities where there are big rivalries there will always be some tension but if both groups are willing this can be controlled. Union Berlin used to be a huge rival of my club so much so that in the early 90's one of there fans was killed at a game in Leipzig (not by our fans but by police who panicked during a post-game riot and shot bullets in the air one of which went astray). After this incident relations between our clubs were horrible and always led to violence but some of the fans decided things went too far and tried to put a stop to it. They were successful enough that a few years ago when our club was on the verge of bankruptcy that the Union Berlin club and fans both collected money to help us. A few years ago having just missed a train after a game between us I got stranded on a platform alone in Leipzig colours when the police herded about 400 Union fans onto the platform. As the police were behind them and far away I thought I was royally screwed but the Union fans just told me quite politely to go by them behind the police lines.

I certainly can't recall the long history of incidents involving the Montreal Ultras that you claim. In the five years I have followed them the only incident I can recall that was not so great was that two guys stole the scarf of that girl from Portland, which while not exactly gentlemanly behaviour will probably also not enter many lists for terrible hooligan incidents. In Rochester I only recall them having problems with dickhead security guards who didn't want to let them hang their banners. The only incident I can recall in Toronto was when the U-sector guys covered the Ultras car in mustard and ketchup.

All of your reports of your fans getting jumped were false. There was one confrontation before the game that did not even involve any violence and by your account it seems like TFC guys were spreading rumours like a bunch of old grandmothers about what had and what was going to happen. By your account it seems like you were expecting the Chelsea Headhunters to attack you. The skinhead element are a bunch of left-wing, anti-racist skinheads who sometimes stand in our section and sometimes don't show up at all. As far as I know none of them are really members of the Ultras and even the few times that they went to our bar after the games at CCR, they always sat by themselves. I was talking with a few of them a couple of weeks ago and they were pretty decent guys. I don't know if any of the skinheads were involved at the fence and until now I can't recall them causing too much problems but that is something we will have to monitor and see how things develop.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I do agree that I have been naive but only in thinking that I could get some co-operation from you guys to try and keep relations between our groups as good as possible.

Grizzly, let me spell it out for you in big letters so that you're clear one our position. I say this as a 'leader' of one of the big TFC supporters groups:

TFC SUPPORTERS GROUPS AS A WHOLE DO NOT CONDONE VIOLENCE AND PROVOCATION. WE WILL NOT INITIATE ANY PHYSICAL CONFRONTATION WITH ANYONE, WHETHER IT'S ON THE ROAD OR AT HOME.

THAT SAID, WE WILL NOT HESITATE TO DEFEND OURSELVES.

This is the general policy of the three main supporters groups, and thus far we've adhered to that in the year and a half that we've been the largest travelling club support in English-speaking North America. Despite this, there is no way to control each and every individual person, as you yourself have stated.

The reason I posted this is because of your continued assertion that we are not be co-operative in avoiding these kinds of situations, when in fact the complete opposite is true.

Refuting your claims on a message board is not being uncooperative, it's debate on a subject that has two very different points of view.

It seems to me that the only way you'd be satisfied that we are being "co-operative" is if we just shut up and allowed some Montreal-based posters here to completely shift the blame on the incident.

We do not need to be co-operative because we don't condone that kind of stupidity. Period.

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

This post is according to you not directed to anyone specifically and then you go on to talk about and insult Belgians? Good one! If Mpenza was coming on here to post stuff about Belgian soccer and denigrating Canadian soccer in the process then your post might have some merit but he does not. His Belgian nationality only became an issue when certain posters tried to discredit his opinions because of this. Despite your claims to the contrary, it seems like the main purpose of your post is to try to insult and inflame Mpenza. Mpenza posts here largely as an Impact supporter not a Canada supporter and unlike some of the born in Canada hyphenated Canadians who don't support Canada, he supports Belgium because he was born and raised there. I doubt some of the posts in this thread have been very helpful in making Canada a second team for him to support.

I'll make sure to watch what I say in all the Jonathan DeGuzman threads so Jono doesn't write-off Canada as his "second team to support." I guess Hargreaves is open season because Wales is clearly his second team. And yes I understand the distinction about where people were born and I have no problem with Mpenza or anybody else supporting Belgium. He was, believe me, just an unfortunate example.

The point of my post -which I thought was obvious- was that it doesn't matter that you're from Belgium per se. If you come on here and say "I don't support Canada, I support country X" you put yourself out there for people to take the piss. Mpenza has done this. Not in an over-the-top or annoying way. He just mentioned it once, but the tone was defintitely "I don't give a toss about Canada."

So it's not hatred or prejudice, or racism. It's exactly the same concept as walking into a an Ultra bar with your TFC kit. If you agree that the latter is a bad idea, you have to except that your fellow Ultra has tarnished his reputation on a CANADA supporters site. For him to cry to the mods about being teased or post over and over again about how he's being abused is absolutely ridiculous. Especially given his -and your- position on bar 99. Total hypocrisy.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

I'll make sure to watch what I say in all the Jonathan DeGuzman threads so Jono doesn't write-off Canada as his "second team to support." I guess Hargreaves is open season because Wales is clearly his second team. And yes I understand the distinction about where people were born and I have no problem with Mpenza or anybody else supporting Belgium. He was, believe me, just an unfortunate example.

The point of my post -which I thought was obvious- was that it doesn't matter that you're from Belgium per se. If you come on here and say "I don't support Canada, I support country X" you put yourself out there for people to take the piss. Mpenza has done this. Not in an over-the-top or annoying way. He just mentioned it once, but the tone was defintitely "I don't give a toss about Canada."

So it's not hatred or prejudice, or racism. It's exactly the same concept as walking into a an Ultra bar with your TFC kit. If you agree that the latter is a bad idea, you have to except that your fellow Ultra has tarnished his reputation on a CANADA supporters site. For him to cry to the mods about being teased or post over and over again about how he's being abused is absolutely ridiculous. Especially given his -and your- position on bar 99. Total hypocrisy.

There is no similarity between Hargreaves, DeGuzman and Mpenza. For one thing Mpenza is a real Belgian and not a Canadian unlike the other two. He is not even an immigrant to Canada but rather a Belgian who just happens to be living and working here.

This may be a Canadian soccer forum but we do not and never have required that people be Canadian supporters to post here. We have forums dedicated to topics not related to Canadian soccer and even one forum not even related to soccer. Even the USL/MLS team forums are not Canadian national team forums so there is no reason that people posting there need to be Canadian supporters. If someone is denigrating the Canadian national team then by all means we have every right to take the piss at them. Mpenza has never done this and posts almost exclusively about the Impact. He is a hardcore Impact fan and if hardcore fans of Canadian clubs can not post about their team in this forum regardless of their national allegiances then we should not have club forums at all.

Mpenza does not wear his Belgian colours in this forum, he never posts about Belgium at all. The only colours he wears in this forum are those of the Impact so your Bar 99 analogy like the other analogies in your post is completely incorrect. The only time Mpenza has ever mentioned Belgium that I recall is the one time someone asked him what national team he supported. I don't always agree with Mpenza's posts either and we have had several heated arguments on the forum ourselves. Yet the posts he made on this thread had nothing to do with Belgium and bringing up and insulting his nationality was completely out of line. If people didn't agree with what he posted that is fine and they could say so but trying to discredit him because of his nationality and because he is not a Canadian team supporter is unfair.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Grizzly, let me spell it out for you in big letters so that you're clear one our position. I say this as a 'leader' of one of the big TFC supporters groups:

TFC SUPPORTERS GROUPS AS A WHOLE DO NOT CONDONE VIOLENCE AND PROVOCATION. WE WILL NOT INITIATE ANY PHYSICAL CONFRONTATION WITH ANYONE, WHETHER IT'S ON THE ROAD OR AT HOME.

THAT SAID, WE WILL NOT HESITATE TO DEFEND OURSELVES.

This is the general policy of the three main supporters groups, and thus far we've adhered to that in the year and a half that we've been the largest travelling club support in English-speaking North America. Despite this, there is no way to control each and every individual person, as you yourself have stated.

The reason I posted this is because of your continued assertion that we are not be co-operative in avoiding these kinds of situations, when in fact the complete opposite is true.

Refuting your claims on a message board is not being uncooperative, it's debate on a subject that has two very different points of view.

It seems to me that the only way you'd be satisfied that we are being "co-operative" is if we just shut up and allowed some Montreal-based posters here to completely shift the blame on the incident.

We do not need to be co-operative because we don't condone that kind of stupidity. Period.

The Montreal Ultras does not condone violence or provocation either and we never have. Despite inaccurate claims by some TFC fans, we have never had much problem at our games and have not felt the need to become overly organized or control who stands with us or buys our scarves. Maybe in light of the incidents with TFC we will have to change this but that remains to be discussed internally. Additionally unlike the TFC groups we have had very little support or co-operation from our club which does not make things easier in controlling the group. This is also the first time in my recollection that we have had to deal with a significant number of away fans. None of the leadership or main members of the Ultras were involved in the conflict at the fence or at Bar 99 nor was it encouraged by any of these leaders.

That being said I don't subscribe to the claim that only Impact supporters were guilty of trangressions during this game. Noone has tried to shift the blame at all. I think all of the Ultras here have taken responsibility for what our supporters were guilty of on this day even though it was through no personal fault of our own but none of us will permit the Montreal fans to bear 100% of the responsibility. From my side I and others involved with the Ultras will try and sort out the situation and exert what control we are able to in time for the next matches. I also feel it would be beneficial if there is co-operation between the rival supporter groups. However, if other supporter groups do not accept their part of the responsibility for what happened I feel there is no basis for establishing a relationship with such groups.

Furthermore, despite claims to the contrary that U-sector does not condone provocation, the stealing of the seat was a clear provocation that seems to bear the approval of the U-sector leadership and membership. Two hours before the game your poster, Werewolf, posted that you would steal a seat from the stadium so this act seems to have been planned in advance. It was then smuggled out of the stadium in the U-sector banner. This led to much approval and bragging on the U-sector forum. I have not seen any condemnation either here nor on the U-sector board of this act by the U-sector leadership. It seems that if you are to have any credibility about claiming you do not support provocation and don't want conflict with the Ultras, this seat should be returned to us when we visit Toronto. I will not ask you for our scarf back since some of our supporters burned a TFC scarf so you are entitled to that. Yet I think the chair would go a long way to improve relations between our groups.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

The Montreal Ultras does not condone violence or provocation either and we never have.

I never said you do. I was just refuting your claims that we're not co-operating, by saying that we don't need to co-operate as we won't instigate.

quote:Furthermore, despite claims to the contrary that U-sector does not condone provocation, the stealing of the seat was a clear provocation that seems to bear the approval of the U-sector leadership and membership. Two hours before the game your poster, Werewolf, posted that you would steal a seat from the stadium so this act seems to have been planned in advance. It was then smuggled out of the stadium in the U-sector banner. This led to much approval and bragging on the U-sector forum. I have not seen any condemnation either here nor on the U-sector board of this act by the U-sector leadership. It seems that if you are to have any credibility about claiming you do not support provocation and don't want conflict with the Ultras, this seat should be returned to us when we visit Toronto. I will not ask you for our scarf back since some of our supporters burned a TFC scarf so you are entitled to that. Yet I think the chair would go a long way to improve relations between our groups.

I cannot believe how much stock you've put into this stupid chair.

Do you realize the number of chairs that broke in that stadium, just from people standing on them as they usually do at BMO? There had to be at least 10 lying around. I nearly broke one off myself (unintentionally) when I leaped up to celebrate the TFC goal.

Some dude named Warewolf posted two hours before the game that a chair would be stolen. Ok, I'm not going to bother to go back and check, I'll take your word for it.

The problem is that two hours before game time everyone who would be in Montreal was already there, and I can tell you that at that exact time, the "leaders" of U-Sector were all drinking at our hotel getting ready to head to the match. No one was discussing taking a chair, and it was definitely not premeditated.

Also, I've never met this Warewolf character (that I know of) at all, so I can't speak to what kind of person he or she is.

Regardless, the chair did not have anything to do with the crap that went on that day, despite your continued attempts to find ways to deflect the issue.

If you want the chair back, go ahead and PM the guy on the U-Sector board. Or steal a chair from BMO Field in retaliation, I don't really care. You're the only person making an issue of this stolen chair, so this is much less a group issue and more of a personal thing.

[youllneverwalkalone]

By the by, an analogy, inherently, cannot be "completely incorrect." Only good or bad. I know that I began posting in this thread, as I have ended, by pointing out the hypocrisy of those who would try to dissuade others to go to a bar in Canada wearing their kit. I don't care whether Mpenza posts or doesn't post here, or chooses Canada as his "second team." But, I assure you all, I mean neither him or his nationality any harm. Sometimes insulting things are said and returned. I can say in my case it's never personal. As Joe Cortez once said, I'm firm but fair. Rudi, Grizzly, touch gloves and have clean round 12. I'm out.