Whitecaps sign Valente and free agent Lyle Martin

[AlanDouglas]

No Canadian team currently has the infrastructure to be able to take sole credit for developing anyone. There is no Barcelona, Ajax, or Arsenal here with masses of well established youth teams and residency training programs. But that is what the Whitecaps are working towards, and they are now getting fairly close to that vision.

Fact is, signing a talented 19 or 20-year-old, giving him a place to play for a couple of years and then letting him on his way is a pretty sad excuse for "development", so let's not kid ourselves about the success of different teams in that regard. That a player leaves a club to play somewhere else could just as easily be an indication that they see no future staying where they are, that they aren't enjoying the experience, or that they aren't being challenged enough.

I agree that Vancouver players do tend to stay in Vancouver. Having lived here all my life, I can't say I fault them. It's a fabulous city. And the 86ers and Whitecaps have traditionally tried to make this a place that players wanted to play, with emphasis on building team spirit and an enjoyable playing environment.

With Kerfoot and now Lilley, the focus has shifted towards building a much more professional organization. Lilley takes a lot of flak here, but the changes he has made in terms of how the team views itself and the training regimen have been dramatic. He took a very hard line with the players, demanding total commitment and a tough training schedule that goes virtually year-round for the locals. Many players fell by the wayside, and Lilley was widely criticized on this board because of it, but my god what a difference it has made for those who hung in. Players here can see how much this organization has improved in the past few years, and are of the belief that it will continue to do so.

So if you want me to name the Whitecaps who are now playing at a higher level, I will tell you. It's all of them!

That's not what you meant though, I know. So here's a name: Jacob Lensky now at Feyenoord, formerly Celtic. Jacob was playing on 86ers and Whitecaps youth teams starting when he was ten. His father was one of the coaches. I remember Jacob well, back in 1999 playing two years up for the 86ers U-12s. Hell of a player.

Now I'm not going to claim that the Whitecaps "developed" Jacob Lensky. That was something that was done by a number of groups and coaches, and primarily his father. But the Whitecaps/86ers did their part, with what little resources they had at the time. Considering how much the youth system has improved since then, I'm really looking forward to see what the next nine years will produce.

[nolando]

Wow...I've been off to a desrted island for the past few days (quite literally), and just wanted to point out that it has been ages since I have seen such a brilliant thread on our beloved site, both in content and courtesy, and involving so many old-school voyageurs heavyweights as well...wow...i hope somebody out there (Caps, Impact, TFC, CSA) is watching this stuff closely because I don't think Canada would be able to find a better open-house forum style of conversation anywhere quite as good as this. on you go, lads!!

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by AlanDouglas

No Canadian team currently has the infrastructure to be able to take sole credit for developing anyone. There is no Barcelona, Ajax, or Arsenal here with masses of well established youth teams and residency training programs. But that is what the Whitecaps are working towards, and they are now getting fairly close to that vision.

Fact is, signing a talented 19 or 20-year-old, giving him a place to play for a couple of years and then letting him on his way is a pretty sad excuse for "development", so let's not kid ourselves about the success of different teams in that regard. That a player leaves a club to play somewhere else could just as easily be an indication that they see no future staying where they are, that they aren't enjoying the experience, or that they aren't being challenged enough.

I agree that Vancouver players do tend to stay in Vancouver. Having lived here all my life, I can't say I fault them. It's a fabulous city. And the 86ers and Whitecaps have traditionally tried to make this a place that players wanted to play, with emphasis on building team spirit and an enjoyable playing environment.

With Kerfoot and now Lilley, the focus has shifted towards building a much more professional organization. Lilley takes a lot of flak here, but the changes he has made in terms of how the team views itself and the training regimen have been dramatic. He took a very hard line with the players, demanding total commitment and a tough training schedule that goes virtually year-round for the locals. Many players fell by the wayside, and Lilley was widely criticized on this board because of it, but my god what a difference it has made for those who hung in. Players here can see how much this organization has improved in the past few years, and are of the belief that it will continue to do so.

So if you want me to name the Whitecaps who are now playing at a higher level, I will tell you. It's all of them!

That's not what you meant though, I know. So here's a name: Jacob Lensky now at Feyenoord, formerly Celtic. Jacob was playing on 86ers and Whitecaps youth teams starting when he was ten. His father was one of the coaches. I remember Jacob well, back in 1999 playing two years up for the 86ers U-12s. Hell of a player.

Now I'm not going to claim that the Whitecaps "developed" Jacob Lensky. That was something that was done by a number of groups and coaches, and primarily his father. But the Whitecaps/86ers did their part, with what little resources they had at the time. Considering how much the youth system has improved since then, I'm really looking forward to see what the next nine years will produce.

Brilliant Alan.

And as the club's culture continues to change, perhaps guys like Riley O'Neil (Caps 1st round pick & Canadian) will consider staying and developing a name BEFORE trying out in Europe. I'd love for North American clubs to one day recieve hefty transfer fees for their young talent.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by AlanDouglas

No Canadian team currently has the infrastructure to be able to take sole credit for developing anyone. There is no Barcelona, Ajax, or Arsenal here with masses of well established youth teams and residency training programs. But that is what the Whitecaps are working towards, and they are now getting fairly close to that vision.

Fact is, signing a talented 19 or 20-year-old, giving him a place to play for a couple of years and then letting him on his way is a pretty sad excuse for "development", so let's not kid ourselves about the success of different teams in that regard. That a player leaves a club to play somewhere else could just as easily be an indication that they see no future staying where they are, that they aren't enjoying the experience, or that they aren't being challenged enough.

I agree that Vancouver players do tend to stay in Vancouver. Having lived here all my life, I can't say I fault them. It's a fabulous city. And the 86ers and Whitecaps have traditionally tried to make this a place that players wanted to play, with emphasis on building team spirit and an enjoyable playing environment.

With Kerfoot and now Lilley, the focus has shifted towards building a much more professional organization. Lilley takes a lot of flak here, but the changes he has made in terms of how the team views itself and the training regimen have been dramatic. He took a very hard line with the players, demanding total commitment and a tough training schedule that goes virtually year-round for the locals. Many players fell by the wayside, and Lilley was widely criticized on this board because of it, but my god what a difference it has made for those who hung in. Players here can see how much this organization has improved in the past few years, and are of the belief that it will continue to do so.

So if you want me to name the Whitecaps who are now playing at a higher level, I will tell you. It's all of them!

That's not what you meant though, I know. So here's a name: Jacob Lensky now at Feyenoord, formerly Celtic. Jacob was playing on 86ers and Whitecaps youth teams starting when he was ten. His father was one of the coaches. I remember Jacob well, back in 1999 playing two years up for the 86ers U-12s. Hell of a player.

Now I'm not going to claim that the Whitecaps "developed" Jacob Lensky. That was something that was done by a number of groups and coaches, and primarily his father. But the Whitecaps/86ers did their part, with what little resources they had at the time. Considering how much the youth system has improved since then, I'm really looking forward to see what the next nine years will produce.

Alan, noone can argue about consolidating the Caps organizational side, that is fine.

But the line "Fact is, signing a talented 19 or 20-year-old, giving him a place to play for a couple of years and then letting him on his way is a pretty sad excuse for "development", so let's not kid ourselves about the success of different teams in that regard", that is absolutely mind-boggling. Even with how you temper it just after, with basically correct comments about why players might leave a club. But I think that you are seriously distorting things with this comment.

First, that is not at all a poor excuse for development. Giving a young player playing time? That is the key to development, especially when he is alongside more experienced players in a competitive environment. The real distortion, however, is to talk about "letting him on his way": what is that? Releasing him if he is not good enough? I don't think you refer to that. I imagine you are referring to his moving on to improve his skills, his pay, his career, his opportunities. This is what the Lynx have done with a good dozen players. The Caps with hardly any. So I understand this is a poor excuse for development for those close to the Whitecaps, since Caps don't do it and other supposedly inferior clubs do, and that is why it is necessary to denigrate the standard world football model for developing youth.

The Whitecaps should be happy to move young players with talent on to bigger and better things. We were once happy to do so, recalling your Beardsleys of the world, one of our proudest legacies. Okay, it is a new club, new set-up, new conditions. But if it is true what you are saying about consolidating a serious organizational club structure, then developing for transfers out, for transfer payments, and to motivate guys to play in a way that is not cushy, to aspire to more through their play, would have to be part of the declared objective.

As you seem to say it is not, then that seems to me a sign that this talk about making things more professional in the club is rather contradictory.

I say, mandate Lilley to build the club with talent and an identity the fans can connect with, meaning: we are going to always be proud to have young Vancouver, BC and Canadian talent on this team, and we are going to be proud to see them move on to bigger and better things. Club philosophy, one you would share with literally hundreds of modest clubs in the world. Besides sharing in the possible revenue benefits for the transfers being paid.

Finally, referring to Lensky. He is not even committed to Canada, and if his dad coached for Caps but is encouraging his kid to try for the Czech Republic (probably over his ability but that remains to see), then I ask what kind of model is the Caps using in its development system when the best example you can come up with has gone through the Caps system with the goal of playing for another nation.

[analyst]

Whats the fuss? Why develop young Canadians when you can sign superstar strikers like Joel Bailey, who is todays signing announcement.

In a few weeks I can watch Martin and Bailey scoring bundles of goals against good ALeague teams like Virginia Beach. What a good team. What a good league.

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by analyst

Whats the fuss? Why develop young Canadians when you can sign superstar strikers like Joel Bailey, who is todays signing announcement.

In a few weeks I can watch Martin and Bailey scoring bundles of goals against good ALeague teams like Virginia Beach. What a good team. What a good league.

Well I guess the alternative is to field a team of any Canadians who aren't already playing in the MLS for Toronto, or in Division 9 of a Scandanavian league, so that you can finish out of the playoffs, and play before a half full stadium.

Smart idea when you're planning on building a 100 million dollar stadium and joining MLS.

Or how about this...what about NOT HAVING A TEAM IN VANCOUVER AT ALL!

Your logic is baffling, but you're not alone on this board.

[Grizzly]

The Bailey signing is exactly the type of signing I am talking about. A 27 year old Trinidadian who is a very mediocre player who was never able to start or do anything of consequence for Montreal in 3 years. Are there really no Canadian strikers available who could match Bailey's scorching goal scoring pace of two goals a year? Will Bailey return to his top form of three years ago when he scored 4 goals? I am so happy they relaxed the USL foreigner rules so we can watch strikers from Trinidad who have scored 6 goals during their whole USL career. Enjoy your newest acquisition Caps fans.

[Calgary Boomer]

And a better AVAILABLE Canadian alternative would be?

Where are these great Canadian strikers you speak of?

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

And a better AVAILABLE Canadian alternative would be?

Once again....why are we asking for the Canadian players to be better than their foreign counterparts in order to be signed for Canadian clubs?

Oh, and what's Nik Budalic doing these days?

[Calgary Boomer]

We're not asking them to be better than, we're just asking them to be as good as...and not planning on trying to play in Europe.

Remember, there are restrictions for Canadian Players in the University system, so where else do they come from?

[Richard]

Name ANY Canadian striker good enough, available and willing to play for the Whitecaps in USL D1.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

We're not asking them to be better than, we're just asking them to be as good as...and not planning on trying to play in Europe.

It seemed to me that you did ask them to be "better" on two previous occasions in this thread. If that's not what you meant fair enough, but it is what you said.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Name ANY Canadian striker good enough, available and willing to play for the Whitecaps in USL D1.

I thought I already had suggested someone. The bar isn't exactly being set very high with Joel Bailey - from what I've seen I'd take Niki Budalic & some of the Canadian strikers (like Palleschi) trying out for the Impact over him. They are good enough & available, whether they are willing I don't know that any of us can speak to.

[Ivan]

Damien Pottinger.

[analyst]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Name ANY Canadian striker good enough, available and willing to play for the Whitecaps in USL D1.

If Andrew Corazza could play 14 games, like Bailey did last year, then he would score at least 2 goals, which is what Bailey scored last year.

Other good goalscorers/attackers are Adrian Kekec and the Marcina brothers. They are equal to Bailey and probably Martin.

[Richard]

But do these players meet all three criteria as well as being equal to or better than the American selections? Plus coaches must take into account player personalities and team chemistry. Remember, the club is seeking to field the best, most competitive team it can afford irrespective of what passport the players carry.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

And a better AVAILABLE Canadian alternative would be?

Where are these great Canadian strikers you speak of?

Why are you talking about great strikers? We are talking here about signing a guy who is a borderline USL player, in fact, someone who I would say is not good enough to play in the USL. Plus, he is 27 so he is not really a prospect either. He showed in three years that he was not good enough to play for the Impact so why are the Caps signing him? There have been several suggestions of Canadian players who are better than Bailey and out of contract. However, ultimately it is the job of the Caps and Impact to find good players not posters on a soccer forum. If they were adequately scouting Canadians they wouldn't be signing guys like Bailey. It is one thing to ask where they would find an available keeper as good as Caig but another to ask where can they find someone as good as Bailey. As GL said that is setting the bar very low. In addition to those mentioned by the others, there are probably several players in the CSL and PCSL who could play as well as Bailey. Hell you could probably even find guys in the Vancouver Senior Men's League who could score more than 2 goals in 14 games with the Impact. Incidentally, Bailey is one of the reasons the Caps won the title as he was one of the Impact's starting strikers in the semi-final game we lost because we couldn't score. DeSantis for some crazy, unknown reason decided to start Bailey instead of the one player, Salles, who could score. If the Caps were signing Salles I wouldn't be complaining because he is a good player but if they are going to sign players not good enough for the USL at least sign young Canadian players not good enough for the USL.

[masster]

Both sides make some good points. As a Canadian soccer fan, I want to see as many Canadians on the Whitecaps as possible. Yet on the other hand, had Lilley not brought in Gjertsen, Testo and Donatelli over the last 2 years there is no way that the Caps win the Championship, thus losing all the extra media attention that goes along with it.

What I would like to see is for the Caps to try and bring in the best players possible, yet still being a viable option for guys like Tyler Rosenlund and Riley O'Neill to further develop. Rosenlund was bouncing around tryouts in Scandinavia and who knows how he will do in Sweden, while O'Neill is in 3rd division Germany and likely to be relegated. Wouldn't the Caps be a logical next step for these guys post NCAA?

[DarnCherry]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

But do these players meet all three criteria as well as being equal to or better than the American selections? Plus coaches must take into account player personalities and team chemistry. Remember, the club is seeking to field the best, most competitive team it can afford irrespective of what passport the players carry.

How do the Whitecaps know ahead of time how the players personalities and chemistry are going to mesh?

[DarnCherry]

quote:Yet on the other hand, had Lilley not brought in Gjertsen, Testo and Donatelli over the last 2 years there is no way that the Caps win the Championship, thus losing all the extra media attention that goes along with it.

What extra media attention was that? It carried all the extra media attention as a Vancouver Canadians baseball championship.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

How do the Whitecaps know ahead of time how the players personalities and chemistry are going to mesh?

Anybody who hires people that must work as a member of any team has to take this into account. Some people are good at such assessments, others not so good but it is very definitely an important factor when selecting players for team sports.

[masster]

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

What extra media attention was that? It carried all the extra media attention as a Vancouver Canadians baseball championship.

It may have lasted for only a couple of days, but hi-lites were shown on Global, CTV, CBC, Sportsnet. Cameras were there at the airport for their return home plus three local radio stations as well. The victory was front page of the Province. I'm not saying the coverage was immense but it was definetly more than they would have gotten otherwise.

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by analyst

If Andrew Corazza could play 14 games, like Bailey did last year, then he would score at least 2 goals, which is what Bailey scored last year.

Other good goalscorers/attackers are Adrian Kekec and the Marcina brothers. They are equal to Bailey and probably Martin.

Andrew Corazza couldn't even score in the pre-season against the University teams. He was given EVERY opportunity to make the team. The Club was DYING for him to be the next local phenom like he was at SFU. But he wasn't good enough, and he didn't want to play for the reserves. I watched every pre-season game last year, and he was virtually invisible.

As for Bailey...look at his minutes. He was used largely as a sub, and that team couldn't score at a brothel. On this team, he'll get more than 2 goals. Would I rather have Corazza on the team scoring at will? OF COURSE! But he wasn't any better than what they had, and decided to try Europe.

[AlanDouglas]

I like Corazza, and wish things had worked out better, but after playing on various 86ers/Whitecaps reserve teams since he was 15, he was a given a fair chance to make the team last year, but didn't make the grade. Instead it was another Canadian, Matondo, who lit up the pre-season scoring chart, and took that roster spot. And for all the people who sing Corazza's praises as a goal scorer (including Alan Errington who I respect greatly), he hasn't exactly made an impact on the national youth teams either.

As for Adrian Kekec - he has been in training camp and he played in the FVSL game (although his name was inadvertently omitted from the game-day roster handout). He wore 28 for those who were at the game, though I can't say I remember him. There were roster cuts yesterday, so I'll see today if he is still in camp.

And as for Bailey, let's try to put this in perspective. Two of the three Whitecaps top strikers - Jordan and Gjertsen - are currently injured (Jordan is still wearing a cast), and the Whitecaps have already released two import strikers who failed to make an impact last season, Woolfolk and Brooks. So I don't think signing Bailey is an omen of the apocalypse. No, his scoring record hasn't been spectacular, but then neither was Matondo's.

See, this is how professional soccer works (and not just USL, but all levels). You bring players in who you think might help, you see if they work out, and you try to keep the ones who do. Corey Woolfolk had very good scoring credentials when he came here, and he ended up playing all of six minutes last season, so you never know what's going to happen. (Just ask Shevchenko)

Oh and Jeffrey, I do want to get back to our discussion, cause I really don't think we're that far apart on things. But right now I've got a preseason game to get to. Later.

[DarnCherry]

So if the Whitecaps are just about getting the best players regardless of nationality how does that explain them getting rid of Mike Franks and replacing him with American Josh Wicks, who wasn't even half as good as Franks?