Whitecaps sign Valente and free agent Lyle Martin

[Richard]

The Vancouver Whitecaps FC announced today the re-signing of midfielder Alfredo Valente and the signing of free agent Lyle Martin.

http://www.bcsoccerweb.com/articles-mar/whitecaps-mar-26.htm

[analyst]

Richard, thank you for the updates. The two new signings for the Caps are Bixler and Martin, both Yaqnks and both from lower leagues. Maybe they are undiscovered gems. These two signings show the Caps aren't going to spend a lot of money on new players.

[Grizzly]

Since the USL ended the import rule for Canadians/Americans it seems both the Impact and Whitecaps have lost any motivation for developing Canadian players and have been signing Americans en masse. It is one thing to sign a couple of top American players but quite another to be signing developmental US players and guys that are going to be bit players on the club. I don't see a similar trend of American USL franchises signing Canadians. Shouldn't the Impact and Whitecaps see one of their fundamental raisons d'etre to be developing Canadian and local players?

[Calgary Boomer]

If there were affordable, talented Canadian players around that were better than what they have, then yes they should sign them.

Otherwise, do the majority of season's ticket holders care where you're from, or whether you win or not?

[Richard]

I'll wager as long as there are a few Canadians on the roster most season ticket holders really don't care as long as the team wins. This is the professional sports entertainment business, the name on a player's passport is of little consequence. If too many Americans or others affects ticket sales, watch the roster change.

[Grizzly]

Come on this isn't even MLS level, it is USL. There are affordable Canadian players with enough ability to play at this level. The foreign players are more expensive than the Canadian ones and only a few of them are noticeably better. I don't have a problem with signing guys like Gjertson or di Lorenzo but I have seen a lot of mediocre foreign players on the Impact and Caps who are taking up a spot that an equally talented Canadian could. The team that should be having a problem getting good enough Canadian players is TFC not our USL teams. The Caps and Impact just have to make an effort to find/sign them and I don't see them doing this. Since the Caps hired an American coach the team has become extremely Americanized. At the moment I see TFC making a concerted effort to get good Canadian players while the Impact and Caps are extremely lazy in this endeavour. I think both the Caps and Impact could win with Canadian players if they put the effort in to find them. I also think a large percentage of the season ticket holders would like to see Canadian and local players. It may not be as important to the casual fan but it certainly is to the hardcore support.

[Allison A]

For the second straight year, Vancouver signs one of the Timbers draft picks (Lyle Martin).

Remind me again why we have a draft?

[Johnnie Monster]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

At the moment I see TFC making a concerted effort to get good Canadian players while the Impact and Caps are extremely lazy in this endeavour.

You'll find no greater supporter of Canadian football than me, but I strongly disagree that the Caps have any obligations to develop Canadian talent.

The Caps are a private business, and as such their only objective should be to grow financially through tickets, advertising and merchandising.

The best way for them to do that is to field a winning team, and they pulled that off quite nicely this past season with a decent balance of Canadian and US players, not to mention an English keeper.

The fact is, 95% of Vancouver's "fans" don't have a clue who on the team is Canadian and who is American. Until ethnicity and nationalism becomes important to soccer moms and grandpas (and it won't!) it will have no bearing on roster choices, nor should it.

If you want Canada to have any teams at all, you've got to have fan support. You get that by fielding a winning product, not a Canadian one.

You could make an argument that maybe Montreal should</u> have an obligation to field Canadians. They're substantially propped up by tax dollars that came from Canadian pockets in Quebec.

And Toronto is "making an effort" to find Canadians because they're contractually obligated to. US players count against their import limit, do they not?

If fingers are to be pointed anywhere concerning the underdevelopment of Canadian talent, look no further than our own back yard. The CSA is crap, our provincial associations are perpetually screwing the pooch and our colleges and unis don't have the bucks to crank out the kind of talent you see coming out of the US.

So why do the Caps field Americans?

I'll let you in on a dirty little secret.... they're often a little bit better than us. Maybe not by much, but just enough.

[DarnCherry]

While I'll agree with Johnnie about the Whitecaps not being obligated to develop Canadian soccer players I'll disagree that these players are being signed because there are no better Canadians available. As Grizzly mentioned it is because the coach is an American and only knows/cares about the young American talent. Perhaps Lilley, who has MLS coaching aspirations, wants to develop lots of young American talent that will one day move to MLS with him.

[youllneverwalkalone]

although the business of football at the lower levels should be concerned with developing talent to sell on to larger leagues and clubs. i don't think we're quite there in canada, but hopefully mls, tfc, and kerfoots own youth club intiatives will earn some transfer fees for the canadian clubs one day. it's really the best way to obtain long-term fiancial stability.

[Grizzly]

I disagree that sports clubs have no obligation to develop local talent. In fact, any sort of business should have some commitment to its community and sports clubs in particular as they are a special type of business. You can have the attitude that a business should be run on purely capitalist principles but if I am going to support a business I would like to see it as one run by integrity. And all sports clubs receive generous gifts from government whether directly or indirectly through tax benefits. I am sure if an accountant were to look at the financial records of the Caps he could find a lot of government revenue.

I don't have a problem with clubs having a reasonable number of foreigners who are top performers that help the team win like Caig and Gjertson and who raise the level of play in the league. I have a problem with the mediocre players being foreigners when just as talented Canadian players are sitting on the bench. I also have a problem with Canadian teams signing developmental foreign players. The development roster should be reserved for developing Canadians.

[AlanDouglas]

First of all Joey Gjertsen wasn't an established star when the Whitecaps signed him. He was a rookie with no pro experience. That's how it works - you sign players, most don't work out, some do. The broader you cast your net, the more fish you catch.

Second, the Whitecaps are NOT signing fewer new Canadians. They are signing just as many new Canadians as before. What is happening though is that the team is carrying a large roster and seeing more player turnover. There have been a lot more new signings under Lilley than previous years, and the extra new players have typically been American. But the number of new Canadian signings has not decreased.

In 2005-06 under Lilley, the Whitecaps signed NINE Canadians who had not played for the team before: Adrian Cann, Sita-Taty Matondo, Diaz Kambere, Stefan Leslie, Liam de Silva, Said Ali, Steve Frazao, Serge Djekanovic, Josue Mayard

In the two previous seasons, 2003-04 with Tony Fonseca as coach, the Whitecaps signed EIGHT new Canadian players: Justin Thompson, Kevin Harmse, Davide Xausa, Fuseini Dauda, Tino Cucca, Mark Gomes, Trevor Stiles, and Gordon Chin.

In the two seasons before that, it was TEN new Canadian players: Jim Larkin, Kevan Cameron, Simon Postma, Nico Craveiro, Andrew Veer, Mark Finan, Rob Hall, Lars Hirschfeld (on loan), Chris Handsor, and Steve London

[morbital]

i could care less about whos on the field (gregor being the exception, hes a twat) as long as we're winning!

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

While I'll agree with Johnnie about the Whitecaps not being obligated to develop Canadian soccer players I'll disagree that these players are being signed because there are no better Canadians available. As Grizzly mentioned it is because the coach is an American and only knows/cares about the young American talent. Perhaps Lilley, who has MLS coaching aspirations, wants to develop lots of young American talent that will one day move to MLS with him.

So, lets say a Canadian Coach was hired two years ago, like Colin Miller (who applied). Would he have found Joey Gjertson, Steve Klein, Tony Donatelli, Dave Testo?

Would he have won a championship yet with Andrew Corazza and Mohammed Aziz? Doubt it.

Maybe the best prospect from these parts is Riley O'Neil who was drafted by Lilly...but declined because he wants to play overseas.

I'd like to know what AVAILABLE Canadian talent is currently better than what the Whitecaps already have.

And who cares if Lilly has MLS aspirations...so do the Whitecaps and if they ever go, they may have to fall under the same Canadian minimum restrictions as Toronto FC .

[Richard]

"I'd like to know what AVAILABLE Canadian talent is currently better than what the Whitecaps already have."

Finally somebody has hit the nail on the head.

I am sure there are plenty of Canadians good enough to play for the Whitecaps in USL First Division, but they are occupied fulltime with other jobs that pay more and have better long term security and prospects. Otherwise they are plying their soccer trade somewhere else, probably for more money than the Whitecaps can or will pay as a USL D1 club. The club has no choice but to take players from wherever they can get them.

[Blue and White Army]

If the CSA expects the Whitecaps to field lesser-quality Canadian players just to develop local lads for the men's national team, then the Whitecaps should expect to be financially compensated by the CSA for doing so.

Until that happens, the Whitecaps can do as they want - and currently, that's putting the best damn product possible onto the field.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

"I'd like to know what AVAILABLE Canadian talent is currently better than what the Whitecaps already have."

Finally somebody has hit the nail on the head.

I am sure there are plenty of Canadians good enough to play for the Whitecaps in USL First Division, but they are occupied fulltime with other jobs that pay more and have better long term security and prospects. Otherwise they are plying their soccer trade somewhere else, probably for more money than the Whitecaps can or will pay as a USL D1 club. The club has no choice but to take players from wherever they can get them.

The Whitecaps almost assuredly do not scout outside of BC, indeed, Gjertson was probably discovered playing an NAIA game against SFU. Other than that, It appears all the non-BC boys (Canucks and Americans) on the roster seem to come from other USL teams and are "discovered" that way. I'd venture that if the Caps' had the budget, they could find some talent in Alberta and other locales in Canada. But they probably don't and so their pool of Canadians is limited to BC.

But again, it is the Whitecaps' job to win.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

I'd like to know what AVAILABLE Canadian talent is currently better than what the Whitecaps already have.

That's the wrong question to ask. When our players go abroad on trial or in youth academies for foreign clubs, the consensus is that in order to be signed ahead of domestic players that our Canadian boys have to be better than the domestic players that are available.

Are we now saying that for Canadian clubs, that the same things applies, that Canadian players once again have to be better than foreign players, even though we are the domestic players in this case? Surely it should be up to the foreign players here to prove they are better than the Canadian ones for Canadian teams, not the other way round.

As for available Canadian talent that is equal or better that some of what the Whitecaps have signed, how about the better ex-Lynx players who are too good for the PDL like Jamie Dodds, Robbie Aristodemo or Edgar Bartolomeu? Maybe they've made inquiries here, I don't know, and perhaps they will sign Robbie when his indoor season ends, but I've heard Jamie Dodds has signed to play for a CPSL team (or whatever the league is now called), which seems a damn shame when he could be playing in the USL Division 1.

And yes, technically speaking the Whitecaps are under no obligation to develop Canadian players.....but that doesn't stop the likes of Bob Lenarduzzi talking about how the Whitecaps are eager to develop Canadian talent & provide for a professional environment for Canadian players during Canada vs. Scotland broadcast. So whether they are under an obligation to do so is actually beside the point - the fact is that they claim to want to do so, and questioning whether they are succeeding in their own stated aims is completely legitimate.

[Grizzly]

Finally the voice of reason from GL. It is disturbing to see how many fans, particularly of the Caps seem only concerned about whether they are winning or not and don't care if Canadians are playing. News Flash: the USL is a league in which the playing level is 3rd or 4th division European and with no chance of promotion. Winning is not unimportant but while I understand teams in top level leagues importing foreigners to win at all cost I don't understand this in lower level leagues. THE USL IS CRAP FOOTBALL! The USL title is not meaningless but if that is the raison d'etre of these clubs I think they have their priorities wrong. Nor are the Impact and Caps winning the title frequently enough to justify their policies. Even from a revenue standpoint they could make as much money developing young players.

The Caps may not receive as much government funds as the Impact but I am sure the amount they do receive is not as insignificant as some posters here are implying. I think the teams do have a duty to give something back to the communities they are based in. Supporting a soccer team is not the same thing as buying stocks on the stock market. I as a fan need to have something to win my loyalty to the team. If a team that operates as a business in a similar fashion to MacDonald's or ESSO is good enough for some here so be it, for me it is not good enough especially if I have to buy a poor product, in this case, watch bad soccer. And the soccer is bad whether played by the foreigners or not, each team only has two or three foreigner that I could say really raise the level of play and it is not these foreigners that I am complaining about.

I am willing to watch bad soccer if there is something to draw me in. The team I support in Germany is in the 4th division but is well supported and the fans and atmosphere are better than the 1st BL so that is why I support them despite the poor playing level. Despite the efforts of the Ultras and Southsiders the atmosphere at Impact and Caps games is terrible. The level of play is poor and not only that both teams are among the most boring teams to watch in the USL, ie. Lilleyball and its derivative DeSantisball. I need something to attract me to watch this level of soccer, ie. the interest of watching developing Canadian players. If I am going to watch crap soccer I want to see it played by young Canadians not by 28 year old Argentinians and Americans. If the Canadians on the Impact and Caps were getting a chance to play instead of sitting on the bench I would feel differently. When they do get on I rarely see a difference in skill level between them and the mediocre foreigners they are subbing in for. Both the Impact and Caps have a dismal record in developing young Canadians. In fact most of the Canadians currently playing on the two teams are older and stem from the time when they were forced to play more Canadians.

I don't buy the argument that the Caps don't have enough money to find/play Canadian talent. In fact, the problem is that the Caps and Impact have too much money. They are the only teams in the league that can afford to bring in foreign players from places like Argentina and England. There are only a couple of US teams who have budgets anything near the Impact and Caps. In principle, I don't have a problem with the removal of the foreigner limit. The problem is that the US based clubs don't have the money to scout and attract foreign players so the result is that the Canadian clubs bring in foreigners and Canadians are not conversly being signed by American clubs. The Impact and Caps instead of taking the time to develop our own talent are taking the easy way by signing players developed on other teams. Should a yearly scouting trip to Argentina really be a part of the non-profit Impact's mandate? I am sure it easy for Lilley with his American contacts to find talented American college players but shouldn't part of a coach in Canada's job be scouting in this country as well? To make matters worse both Lenarduzzi and Saputo spout off about developing Canadians but so far it is mostly talk.

It is also interesting to see that the one team that did develop the most Canadians was the Lynx. I often enjoyed watching the Lynx more than the Impact or Caps for that reason because I was more interested in their players. The Lynx lack of success was not due to having Canadian players but the instability of the organization which lead to them fielding completely different teams at the start of each season. In fact, for the last few seasons the Lynx in the 2nd half of the season when the roster had stabilized and the players knew each other were often top teams that could have competed for the title had they not lost so many games earlier in the year when the players changed regularly and didn't know each other. The times I watched the Lynx in Montreal late in the year they were among the very best teams in playing level that the Impact faced.

At the moment the team I am most interest in is TFC because I am more interested in their players and their playing level. Even their development roster is more interesting to me than the Impact or Caps rosters. Whether they are doing this because of league requirements or out of team philosophy is immaterial, the fact is that something is working better at the club/league level. I also hope the Canadian content rules for TFC will increase in coming years. Since the Caps and Impact have not shown any impetetus to play Canadians of their own free will maybe the CSA should lobby the USL to reintroduce the Canadian content rules because the present situation is not working. Whether I support the Impact this year will probably have a lot to do with the playing time of Di Ioia who is a very talented young Canadian. If we have a repeat of the Hainault situation where he subs on irregularly, looks like their best defender but his performance doesn't win him any more playing time, I will probably pass on the Impact this year. I have better things to do than watch a few 30 year old Canadians playing defensive 3rd/4th division soccer with a bunch of mediocre Americans and South Americans. If Di Ioia and some of the other younger Canadians are getting some time I will be inspired to go to the games. Maybe the majority of Impact fans in attendance on free and $5/10 tickets don't have the same attitude but they will have lost at least one hardcore fan of which they have far too few.

[Richard]

Whatever gets you rocks off. Personally I prefer my team to be a winning one rather than one driven by parochial nationalism. No matter what you believe the real level of USL D1 is by international standards, the Whitecaps FC is a professional sports entertainment business and unlike the Impact, is privately owned and funded. They can chose whomever they wish to play on the team. Would you expect the EPL, Bundesliga and all the other European leagues/clubs to employ only domestic players? If the fans stop buying tickets then the Whitecaps may well rethink their player policies. I sugggest if that happened though, the reason would be a losing team, not the nationality of the players.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by morbital

i could care less about whos on the field (gregor being the exception, hes a twat) as long as we're winning!

Yeah, well... Good luck with that! (I'll just get on with ordering my Impact shirt this weekend some time).

Peace, love and understanding lads. See you all at Commonwealth this summer where we can have a good, loud, drunken face-to-face over it all .

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Have to agree with Gianluca and Grizzly on this.

I find it much more interesting to watch young talent grow and if it is local or Canadian even better. I don't mind those odd Americans who show committment and develop well, but most of them don't know or care where they are, they have no committment to the club or the place or even care about the history, which in the case of the Whitecaps is rather sad (especially when so much of its history in the form of the Lenarduzzi boys is still around).

Like Grizzly I also watch lower division, not as much as I used to for family reasons, but if I could I would watch a third or fourth tier game every weekend. I love it, and especially if it is my neighbourhood team or the youth teams of Barça or Espanyol. I am proud to have seen guys like Arteta or Iniesta or players like Depor defender Lopo (Espanyol system) when they were teens, that is a kick for me. And I am proud that someone believed in their talent and took a risk to develop it instead of only thinking about results.

The whole winning is everything thing does not grab me sentimentally. I have said before that when Barça won two leagues in a row under Van Gaal we did not celebrate them with the same enthusiasm here because the team was all Dutch, and the coach was a Dutch azzhole. And it does make a difference for us to have four or five guys from the youth program on the field (five started vs. Liverpool at Anfield). I also think that having those guys means you have players with a huge emotional bond with the team, they hate losing and especially to certain rivals. Often you see the international stars walk off after losing rather nonchalant, they don't like it as they are competitive and talented, but they don't have that rage and embarrassment that local kids show.

One of the worst marks against Whitecaps is that so few players have gone on from the club to greater things in recent years. From any nationality. I think it could be a problem with a lack of FIFA agents in BC, so that link is weak, I admit it. But nothing makes me prouder to be able to say this or that kid in Bundesliga 2 or the Championship was developed by the Caps. And when have I been able to say that lately?

[Grizzly]

Wanting your country to develop talented soccer players is not parochial nationalism, Richard. If winning minor league titles is more important to you than the development of Canadian players I don't think you are much of a fan of Canadian soccer. Basically what I am hearing from several posters is that they are willing to support a team that has a philosophy of placing winning and making a profit as the top priorities as long as it is located in their hometown. If that is enough for you guys to support a team then so be it but it is not enough for me. I like Jefferey don't even like this attitude at the top levels of the sport though at least I can somewhat understand it there. I am certainly not going to accept it from teams playing boring, poor level minor league soccer.

For those looking to blame the CSA and provincial organizations about the so-called lack of Canadian USL level players (a point I dispute there is no lack of players there is a lack of searching for them) while there may be some merit to that, don't forget that the USL teams are an important cog in the whole development process and share in the blame. I don't see that the talent is not being produced at the provincial level, what I see is there are not professional clubs willing to take the talent once it is ready to graduate to the next level. We only have three professional clubs in Canada (a situation both the Impact and Caps have contributed greatly to) and two of those clubs don't appear to be very interested in developing young Canadian talent. I am getting sick of reading week in and week out how the Impact and Caps are signing yet another couple of foreigners especially when as GL mentioned there are a number of out of work Lynx players who would be decent choices. If this year at Impact games I am going to be watching Gervais and Leduc and a bunch of foreigners than I will withdraw my support from the Impact. There is nothing to attract me, the soccer is poor and I am not watching Canadians. My time would be better spent watching DeGuzman and McKenna play on tv as well as watching TFC. I live in Montreal but if the Impact are not representing Montreal, Quebec or Canada than I will watch a team in another city or another country.

[DarnCherry]

quote:So, lets say a Canadian Coach was hired two years ago, like Colin Miller (who applied). Would he have found Joey Gjertson, Steve Klein, Tony Donatelli, Dave Testo?

Gjertson perhaps. The others? Probably not. I believe the others had relationships with Lilley, and are the reason they joined the squad.

quote:Would he have won a championship yet with Andrew Corazza and Mohammed Aziz? Doubt it.

Probably not. But last years championship really doesn't mean anything to me. In fact I only attended one game last season (vs Montreal-it sent me to sleep) and I didn't even watch the championship game. Whitecaps spent a lot of money and bought a championship-big deal. I had more fun at games in the days when they fielded what we used to call an all star VMSL side. Just my opinion, and one that won't change.

quote:I'd like to know what AVAILABLE Canadian talent is currently better than what the Whitecaps already have

I don't know. Do the Caps even have enough signed players yet? If they do have a great load of talent already signed then why sign American USL-2 players to sit on the bench when they can sign some Canadian local to do the same thing?

quote:

And who cares if Lilly has MLS aspirations...so do the Whitecaps and if they ever go, they may have to fall under the same Canadian minimum restrictions as Toronto FC .

So? Different leagues, apples and oranges. We are talking about USL-1 here.

[DarnCherry]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

If the fans stop buying tickets then the Whitecaps may well rethink their player policies. I sugggest if that happened though, the reason would be a losing team, not the nationality of the players.

Whitecaps/86ers attendance since being founded has been nearly the same, year after year, regardless of winning, losing or mediocre seasons.